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ROFLMAO. Most people complain that my values are medieval & out of touch with the modern world! Cannoli Send a noteboard - 23/03/2010 01:54:58 AM
The books take place in a time and place where the social mores are very different than our world. Life is not as valuable to people of this primitive (by our standards) society, and because of this we can not honestly judge them by the values of our world and our time.
I am not. I am judging them by absolute moral values, and the stated values of their own world. You may note I have never, for instance, condemned the Targaryens for incest or polygamy. Murder is still murder, and your argument about holding life in less value IS taken into consideration WHERE valid. For the most part, that assertion is self-satified BS that is founded on smug assumptions of your own moral superiority. In actuality, comtemporary mores are rather permissive and debased, and there is little indication that aside from a morally baselss affectation of revulsion for killing (more probably founded on the lack of necessity or familiarity with the mechanics or process of death, than on any moral refinements, IMO), our own set of values and commonly held beliefs is more stringent than that of a medieval culture or medieval-based fantasy world.

Just as we cannot honestly judge historical figures from our worlds ancient history using our values and beliefs. To do so, we would have to then say that just about every leader of the ancient world was evil, from Marcus Crassus (who crucified several thousand revolting slaves along the road to Rome after he put down Spartacus) to Caesar who crucified the pirates that had taken him hostage after he was ransomed.
What is this absurd point you are making? Are you operating from an assumption that a reputed arsonist and corrupt politician and a military dictator who overthrew a constitutional electoral system are morally righteous men? In fact, Crassus's & Caesar's crucifixtions were simply carrying out the accepted laws of the time! Piracy is, and always has been (until our highly moralistic and intolerant times of course :sarcasm: ), a capital crime, punishable by any sort of authority who catches them in the act, as is revolution against the established government. Neither man instituted crucifixtion as a novelty punishment, and it was in fact, a legally prescribed method of execution for certain crimes, including violence by slaves, and possibly piracy. The only moral issues in those cases are purely personal, depending on how much of their egos and self-aggrandizement motivated their actions, which are remembered for their flamboyance, rather than their alleged cruelty.

Evil is such a tricky term, especially when you are looking at the situation through the filter of modern values and mores.
Which is what YOU people are doing when you balk at applying it. And there is nothing tricky about it.

I am not trying to in any way condone the actions of Jaime or Cersei et al, yet what they did they did to protect their children and family.
From a threat they themselves created! Innocent people have to die because Jaime and Cersei claim to love each other and their misbegotten children? I would agree that killing Tommen and Myrcella, at the very least, would be wrong, but it does not give Jaime and Cersei the right to commit treason and regicide on the off-chance that someone might do it.
Additionally, you are accepting the assertions of two selfish, dishonest and morally cowardly people that their motives are pure. In each case their assertions of the love of their children (one never actually made by Jaime, BTW, who never claims more than an uncle's care for a nephew or knight's concern for the well-being of his sovereign [and a laughable concern from Jaime Lannister of all people] ), are highly suspect, usually coming in order to deflect accusations and spread the blame. Cersei claims that Jaime did it without her consent, while Jaime's words and expression clearly tried to place the blame on Cersei.

Any parent would do whatever was necessary to save the lives of their children, even if it meant doing somehting horrible.
That doesn't make it right.

I challenge anyone on this board to HONESTLY say that they would not kill someone to protect their child. If you say you wouldn't then either you are not a parent, or you are a liar.
Not a parent, and I would hope I was better than that. In any case, my theoretical failure to live up to a moral standard, as claimed by a person who has never met me, does not invalidate that standard. The accepted notion that everyone has his price does not make selling out acceptable.

I will agree that Littlefinger is much more evil than Arya, but he was not on that list. Hell, Khal Drogo could be said to be evil as well (treatment of defeated peoples, slavery, and even the way he executed Viserys) by our modern standards, but when taken in CONTEXT of the setting, he was not that bad. Nobody has even mentioned him at all, which just goes to show that even with our Filtered view we don't think of him as evil.
Speak for yourself.

Personally, I found Ned Stark's execution of Gared to be an evil act. The man was not in any right frame of mind, totally consumed by the fear instilled by the Others. And yet, to most fans of the books, Ned Stark was a hero from the beginning.
YOU are the one applying a modern outlook. If he was not in his right mind, then he had to go! He could not be responsible for his own actions, and was doubly a danger to others! The assumption that an insane person is exempt from punishment or preventive measures is a relatively MODERN legalistic notion. It is simply a legal position, and not nearly as widespread as you and your ilk seem to believe (if it WAS so acceptable, lawyers would be going to it all the time). Gareth might have had extenuating circumstances, but Ned had no way of knowing those, and was acting completely in the bounds of his moral rights and his moral and legal obligations. Gareth has been a member of the Night's Watch for a very long time, and knew full well the penalty for desertion. If he is driven so far out of his right mind that the threat of death will not deter him, what is to be done with him? If threats of death will not stop a person, only actual death will. He knew it was death to leave the Wall, but did so anyway. Whether or not he was capable of making that distinction is irrelevant - what else might he do in his state? How are we to be assured that his desperate mental illness will not drive him to lash out at innocents he perceives as a threat? Or do you think the Others inflicted a benevolent and harmless madness on him?

In any case, there is no suggestion that the Seven Kingdoms follows the M'Nauhton precedent of English Common Law or the 1980s Supreme Court decision that you can't execute a whack-job. Even if they did, in such instances, there is a legal definition of insanity that must be met, regardless of the medical or psychiatric diagnosis of the defendant. There is simply no moral issue at stake here, merely a legal one exaggerated into a moral position by a culture so indifferent to moral philosophy they cannot discern a difference between legal and moral.

Cersei, by modern psychological standards, is (to use a technical term) BONKERS. To the layperson, you could say she is paranoid, delusional, potentially schizo, has anxiety disorders and who knows what else (not to forget that Freud would diagnose her with penis envy). She would be committed in a heartbeat today.
And it doesn't change the fact that she is evil. In the first place, I doubt your assumption that she would automatically be committed, as you appear to be severely lacking in your understanding of psychiatry and the legal process. In the second, while it might make a difference if you are attempting to determine her fate in the afterlife, for all practical purposes, the reasons don't matter. She is evil, and her action are evil, regardless of the degree of her guilt. Were she to stand trial under a modern judiciary, she would only evade punishment if the jury was composed of willfully ignorant people not unlike yourself, who could be persuaded by her attorneys to forego the jury instructions and legal definitions of insanity and assume they knew better than legal professionals what those terms should mean. There is not the slightest suggestion that she was acting on an irresistable impulse, and her history of keeping her crimes a secret and extreme efforts to avoid the consequences of her actions plainly indicate that she knew damn well what she was up to. Whatever mental illnesses she might be suffering from, she is hardly incompetant or inculpable.

I still have to say that of the choices we had, Arya (for reason listed in several posts above) is the most evil on the list, even by the standards "of the day" we see in the books.


And what ARE those standards? Sure she is bad, and embracing occasions of wrongdoing, but despite being a nasty piece of work, she has only really murdered one or at the most three people, compared to the purely selfish atrocities of the others.
Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
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ASoI&F Quickpoll: Evil characters - 18/03/2010 02:04:24 PM 1303 Views
Re: ASoI&F Quickpoll: Evil characters - 18/03/2010 02:32:48 PM 744 Views
Re: ASoI&F Quickpoll: Evil characters - 18/03/2010 06:34:29 PM 705 Views
Exactly. - 18/03/2010 09:07:56 PM 755 Views
I have never heard anyone defend Cersei. - 18/03/2010 07:04:33 PM 765 Views
Confusing likability with goodness - 18/03/2010 08:59:40 PM 764 Views
Arya may not be "good"... - 18/03/2010 09:15:46 PM 817 Views
Do you think a child can be evil? *NM* - 18/03/2010 09:18:06 PM 318 Views
We sometimes hear about kids doing horrible things - 18/03/2010 09:41:30 PM 649 Views
Is that because they may not understand the consequences of their actions? - 18/03/2010 09:45:33 PM 714 Views
Most likely, yes. Plus their reasons for doing bad things lack deeper inferior motives. - 18/03/2010 10:09:25 PM 750 Views
Arya is old enough to understand cause and effect... - 18/03/2010 11:04:31 PM 835 Views
Soldiers do the same thing. - 19/03/2010 03:23:35 AM 693 Views
Just what I was about to say, yeah *NM* - 19/03/2010 07:55:47 AM 293 Views
Arya is legitimately the most evil... - 18/03/2010 09:45:04 PM 1016 Views
No, she's not - 18/03/2010 11:45:23 PM 695 Views
Cersei doesn't have true justification - 18/03/2010 11:47:44 PM 821 Views
what makes ambition better? - 19/03/2010 03:30:04 AM 672 Views
*nods* - 19/03/2010 07:58:31 AM 789 Views
Re: Arya is legitimately the most evil... - 19/03/2010 10:50:56 PM 689 Views
I was looking forward to his response as well. - 19/03/2010 11:13:35 PM 794 Views
Nope - 20/03/2010 10:23:19 PM 857 Views
Evil is such a limiting term to use. - 20/03/2010 12:18:24 PM 665 Views
Try reading the books - 20/03/2010 10:50:01 PM 875 Views
just out of curiousity - 21/03/2010 03:01:02 AM 762 Views
Sort of. - 22/03/2010 11:37:04 PM 663 Views
I've read them a few times. - 21/03/2010 01:47:52 PM 754 Views
Just a "few" times? - 21/03/2010 06:07:14 PM 831 Views
Only three times. - 21/03/2010 11:20:12 PM 714 Views
Who is Jon Connington? - 22/03/2010 01:30:44 AM 852 Views
people seem to be forgetting - 21/03/2010 09:11:04 PM 813 Views
Some of that is BS... - 22/03/2010 04:18:06 AM 732 Views
Thank you. - 23/03/2010 01:59:38 AM 740 Views
*NM* - 23/03/2010 03:58:24 AM 250 Views
ROFLMAO. Most people complain that my values are medieval & out of touch with the modern world! - 23/03/2010 01:54:58 AM 1088 Views
It really shocks that I'm going to say this. - 23/03/2010 03:23:28 AM 676 Views
To clarify, "evil" means VERY, VERY BAD. - 23/03/2010 01:12:39 AM 920 Views
your problem is you seem equate legality with morality - 24/03/2010 04:07:42 AM 660 Views
I was responding to someone ELSE making that error - 24/03/2010 03:13:36 PM 939 Views

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