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Just a "few" times? fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 21/03/2010 06:07:14 PM

Well your repeated use of the term evil, which is in itself extremely limiting, does make the argument difficult to carry out. Remember this not the WHEEL OF TIME where evil is a sort of taint that seeps into people from a supernatural origin. There are only people, morality and motivations, and no-one's motivation is to be evil for the sake of it.

Where does it say in WoT that people are evil only if the DO taints them?
But that aside, I think Cannoli is using "evil" in the sense of immoral, bad, wrong, unethical, etc. Murder is evil, rape is evil, and so on. This isn't capital E Evil, but evil as we use it in the everyday sense.
Jaime and Cersei tried to kill Bran (well Jaime did, Cersei was against it) because they feared he would expose them and the two of them and their three children would die horribly as a result. The protection of Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella is Cersei's primary motivation offsetting everything else, and although she takes it to pathological extremes, it isn't the case of her being 'evil' for the sake of it.

Ummm... that is still evil. "I only killed him because I'd lose my job and my children would starve otherwise" is no excuse. If Jaime and Cersei cared for their life and that of their children, they shouldn't have been screwing each other in strange places where someone might see.
They did not kill Bran for the joy of seeing him fall and suffer, but restricting the label "evil" to just such motivations seems ridiculous to me.
Jaime's evil acts in the books in fact are a lot harder to define. He killed Eddard's guards (in battle, although outnumbered) to send a warning message to Eddard's wife for taking his brother hostage. He killed Aerys to save King's Landing from being blown sky high. As already mentioned, he did try to murder Bran but then his fate and the fate of his sister and his children was on the line. That doesn't offset the evil of the act, but does at least rationalize it by his own standards (and his crime was, if not forgiven, at least commuted by Bran's mother when she released him from Riverrun). The other people Jaime killed in the books (Karstark's sons, for example) were in warfare and battle.

The question is, are these the motives or the justification he offers to himself?
You're right that no one is evil for the heck of it... but Jaime's thoughts seem to be more his spin on events. He remembers his early desire to be a shining knight, and reinterprets his actions so that he wouldn't have to face the fact that he was a spectacular failure.
I know of no measure of good and evil that allows murder of innocents for the sake of family pride or self protection. If that were so, every drug peddler who kills an innocent witness to his crime so he can save his life and that of his friends can justify his act.
Plus later on, Jaime did repent his actions and swore a new oath to uphold the honour of the Kingsguard and his former promise to Cat, which against the odds he has fulfilled so far (by taking Riverrun without bloodshed and sparing the castle garrison and survivors).

But he does so only if it is convenient to him. If things hadn't worked out at Riverrun, he was ready to break his oath.
As for finding Sansa, he sent an inconvenient companion away on a solitary hunt. Big deal. If he wanted to stay true to his oath, he should have had Cersei call off her hunt for Sansa, and used the extensive resources he has access to as head of the Kingsguard to search for Sansa, and ensured her protection. He didn't have the guts to face his sister.

This is what frustrates me with aSoIaF. Not the books themselves, because these ideas about the worth of characters are not GRRM's, but the readers. Everyone is so overjoyed with this supposedly new idea of a morally gray world that they forget that the absence of a source of ultimate Evil and Good in a world doesn't mean individual people and actions can still be good and evil.


Ned's death did not prove that being honorable can have a cost, it proved that leaving the path of honor can have a cost. Had Ned put kingdom above family as honor demanded and refused to give his false confession, Carsei would have been unable to do anything, and once Jaime was captured, Ned would have been in a powerful position. Tywin would have ensured the release of Ned (and maybe even Sansa) in exchange for Jaime so he could concentrate on Stannis and Renly. With him alive, there would have been no talk about the King in the North, and as you can imagine, things would have been considerably easier since then.
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ASoI&F Quickpoll: Evil characters - 18/03/2010 02:04:24 PM 1303 Views
Re: ASoI&F Quickpoll: Evil characters - 18/03/2010 02:32:48 PM 744 Views
Re: ASoI&F Quickpoll: Evil characters - 18/03/2010 06:34:29 PM 704 Views
Exactly. - 18/03/2010 09:07:56 PM 754 Views
I have never heard anyone defend Cersei. - 18/03/2010 07:04:33 PM 765 Views
Confusing likability with goodness - 18/03/2010 08:59:40 PM 764 Views
Arya may not be "good"... - 18/03/2010 09:15:46 PM 817 Views
Do you think a child can be evil? *NM* - 18/03/2010 09:18:06 PM 318 Views
We sometimes hear about kids doing horrible things - 18/03/2010 09:41:30 PM 649 Views
Is that because they may not understand the consequences of their actions? - 18/03/2010 09:45:33 PM 713 Views
Most likely, yes. Plus their reasons for doing bad things lack deeper inferior motives. - 18/03/2010 10:09:25 PM 749 Views
Arya is old enough to understand cause and effect... - 18/03/2010 11:04:31 PM 835 Views
Soldiers do the same thing. - 19/03/2010 03:23:35 AM 692 Views
Just what I was about to say, yeah *NM* - 19/03/2010 07:55:47 AM 293 Views
Arya is legitimately the most evil... - 18/03/2010 09:45:04 PM 1016 Views
No, she's not - 18/03/2010 11:45:23 PM 695 Views
Cersei doesn't have true justification - 18/03/2010 11:47:44 PM 819 Views
what makes ambition better? - 19/03/2010 03:30:04 AM 671 Views
*nods* - 19/03/2010 07:58:31 AM 789 Views
Re: Arya is legitimately the most evil... - 19/03/2010 10:50:56 PM 688 Views
I was looking forward to his response as well. - 19/03/2010 11:13:35 PM 794 Views
Nope - 20/03/2010 10:23:19 PM 856 Views
Evil is such a limiting term to use. - 20/03/2010 12:18:24 PM 665 Views
Try reading the books - 20/03/2010 10:50:01 PM 875 Views
just out of curiousity - 21/03/2010 03:01:02 AM 761 Views
Sort of. - 22/03/2010 11:37:04 PM 662 Views
I've read them a few times. - 21/03/2010 01:47:52 PM 754 Views
Just a "few" times? - 21/03/2010 06:07:14 PM 831 Views
Only three times. - 21/03/2010 11:20:12 PM 714 Views
Who is Jon Connington? - 22/03/2010 01:30:44 AM 852 Views
people seem to be forgetting - 21/03/2010 09:11:04 PM 813 Views
Some of that is BS... - 22/03/2010 04:18:06 AM 731 Views
Thank you. - 23/03/2010 01:59:38 AM 740 Views
*NM* - 23/03/2010 03:58:24 AM 250 Views
ROFLMAO. Most people complain that my values are medieval & out of touch with the modern world! - 23/03/2010 01:54:58 AM 1087 Views
It really shocks that I'm going to say this. - 23/03/2010 03:23:28 AM 676 Views
To clarify, "evil" means VERY, VERY BAD. - 23/03/2010 01:12:39 AM 919 Views
your problem is you seem equate legality with morality - 24/03/2010 04:07:42 AM 660 Views
I was responding to someone ELSE making that error - 24/03/2010 03:13:36 PM 939 Views

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