I liked Luigi Vampa, mostly because I am a sucker for he idea of the literate bandit. And possibly also because he is just hinted at. Too many of the characters in this book are painted with strokes that are too broad, which means the minor characters become the more interesting.
I also liked Noirtier. He was an actual character, I felt, not just a melodramatic plot tool. His son might have reached the same height with just a few more touches of shadowing. He had great potential in the beginning (at a time when he was really the only character who interested me), but became less nuanced towards the end.
I was not a great fan of Valentine (but for some reason I do not mind young Morrel as much).
I liked all three of them, though I only liked Noirtier through what he actually did in the novel
You mean his cunning escapes and Jacobin fervour and calm cool in the face of the knowledge that the police were looking for him? Or the kindly grandfather bit? I loved his politics and how he dealt with it.
The other two I liked as they felt like they could have been interesting lead characters in a Dumas novel (as good the earlier days of Noirtier). In Morrel's case it was purely about personality - young men who are handy with a sword, full of youthful energy, sense of duty and a disregard for selfpreservation is something Dumas does well.
True. But I would have liked him to have more shades of grey. As it is he is really Raoul from Vicomte de Bragelonne: a noble, heroic, good side character rather than one with the interest of a lead. I am worried that if he were to carry a book alone we would get The Last Cavalier.
I was also fascinated by the daughter of Danglars. That was a fairly unequivocal reference to lesbianism, and I can't believe I did not catch it the last time I read it. I was surprised at how stated it was in a book of this nature. Is the moral that a girl can only be independent if she renounce men altogether? Or the reverse, that if she desires such independence, she must be a lesbian? I am intrigued.
Yes, I missed that when I read it the first time. I took it to be more the latter - if she wasn't a lesbian, she would have let herself be married of in the family interest and made the best of it.
There is another thing that has been bugging me about the characters, and I cannot decide whether it is a stroke of genius or just off. They all change so much between the first and second periods. It is not only the count who completely changes personality -- they all do (except Mercedes and Villefort). Danglars perhaps least of the baddies, but Fernand? It is quite astonishing.
I found it a bit off. Danglars and Fernand felt to me like they had just risen to quickly to be possible.
True. I never had a problem with that when it came to Danglars, precisely because he had been established as a schemer with ambitions already in the beginning. I can see him getting rich by stabbing people in the back along the way. Fernand is a bigger problem for me. He never seemed to have the know-how or ambition. There is of course the possibility that betraying Dantés gave him the idea to petray Ali Pasha when he was in a position to do so, and that that set him up with the money &c., but I find it less natural.
A word on the women, finally. Mercedes, Valentine, Madame de Villefort, Mlle Danglars, Madame Danglars, Haidee. I was suprised at the breadth, I confess. Some are obvious angels (Valentine, primarily), some obvious monsters (Madame de Villefort) -- in fact, it is interesting that it is in Villefort's house that we get the clichéd extremes of Woman.
I do think it was a shame the Valentine part wasn't written differently, so that there could have been doubts when the doctor implictated her.
That would have been good. Do you mean doubt on the reader's part?
Mercedes is interesting in that she did not wait or kill herself (the two options really open to her as a melodramatic heroine), but actually married Fernand (reneging on all the vows she made initially). She breaks out of the pattern and becomes one of the betrayers. This is of course why she cannot be awarded love in the end (which makes the end dissonant, in a way I did not like but found intriguing -- because the reason why I did not like it was that it did not fall into the expectations the genre and the earlier eulogising of Mercedes had created in me).
I thought it was interesting, Mercedes marrying Fernand felt like she was acting in a more modern way but the end showed her being punished for it.
Yes. I suspect this book is a ripe field for a feminist analysis.
And Haidee. She has an interesting back story, but no colour herself, if that makes any sense. I am always a bit disappointed in her.
Her lack of depth is a shame but it does make her an interesting symbol in the story as well. She is there to start with purely as a tool and that is her only purpose, so Dantes doesn't need her to have depth, but ends there as part of the move on from revenge.
I agree. Her function in the plot is reflected in the Count's use of her in the beginning (again, the plot as theme bit intrigues me). But the change from slave to love object strikes me as too sudden.
*MySmiley*
structured procrastinator
structured procrastinator
The Count of Monte Cristo by Alexandre Dumas - Book Club now open!
25/01/2010 10:54:37 PM
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Les characters.
25/01/2010 10:56:23 PM
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Why does the book have enduring appeal?
25/01/2010 10:57:37 PM
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Or rather, does this book share any traits in common with pornography?
25/01/2010 11:14:01 PM
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I think the revenge plot is actually fairly weak.
26/01/2010 03:43:04 AM
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Re: I think the revenge plot is actually fairly weak.
26/01/2010 11:12:19 AM
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In that case, the "release" is quite unsatisfying.
27/01/2010 01:42:28 PM
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Which is precisely part of what makes the book interesting
27/01/2010 02:06:58 PM
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He would not have known the book would be ruined by water. He thought he was being buried.
27/01/2010 02:15:02 PM
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Oh, and your point on revenge - that's just reading too much into the text.
27/01/2010 02:16:05 PM
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There is no such thing
27/01/2010 02:18:46 PM
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I fundamentally disagree with your post-modern take on the novel.
27/01/2010 02:25:25 PM
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Re: Which is precisely part of what makes the book interesting
27/01/2010 03:40:36 PM
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Maybe it's of the same importance as the Lost Symbol.
27/01/2010 03:44:55 PM
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I think one important question to ask is...
26/01/2010 12:00:17 AM
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I like it, but it is purely on the adventure story level, and I've read the unabridged version.
26/01/2010 12:03:01 AM
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I'm fairly certain I read the unabridged version. It was 1500 pages. *NM*
26/01/2010 02:36:10 AM
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I have read the abridged version a couple of times. I am reading the unabridged version this time.
26/01/2010 03:25:50 AM
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I have read both
27/01/2010 01:37:00 AM
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I actually didn't mean the people here on the site so much as readers in general.
27/01/2010 01:44:46 AM
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Re: I actually didn't mean the people here on the site so much as readers in general.
27/01/2010 01:48:11 AM
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Re: I got here too late, so I offer Umberto Eco's thoughts on the matter:
22/02/2010 06:59:13 PM
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The book was very childish.
26/01/2010 03:05:01 AM
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Granted, The Master and Margarita is also very much a fantasy book. *NM*
26/01/2010 03:07:45 AM
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No, it really isn't.
26/01/2010 03:10:08 AM
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You know, this is a problem.
26/01/2010 03:43:14 AM
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Thank God, I've never even heard of "Skol". Popov, yes, but Skol?
26/01/2010 03:49:08 AM
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I've not tried it, but every time I go into liquor stores, it sits on the bottom shelf.
26/01/2010 03:57:03 AM
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There's really nothing I can say to this that Greg didn't just say above.
26/01/2010 06:32:02 AM
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Re: No, it really isn't.
26/01/2010 10:57:19 AM
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Having Camilla concur with me on literary matters is very encouraging.
26/01/2010 01:37:23 PM
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I do not agree with your complete dismissal of The Count of Monte Cristo, though
26/01/2010 04:58:58 PM
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You make some rather odd claims here, Tom
27/01/2010 12:43:41 AM
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My claims are far from odd. In fact, they're quite common.
27/01/2010 01:57:41 AM
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In some circles; in others, they're rather antiquated nowadays
27/01/2010 02:21:03 AM
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If you were trying to write literature, wouldn't the label sting for you?
27/01/2010 01:25:14 PM
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I think it's easier to think of stories fitting into genre(s) than to think the same of authors
27/01/2010 02:40:29 PM
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Allow me to clarify: I'm talking about authors' reactions to their books being so labelled.
27/01/2010 03:08:47 PM
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But yet their reactions vary widely
27/01/2010 11:33:25 PM
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My fundamental premise is that genre has the most utility when applied to derivative fiction.
28/01/2010 09:39:17 PM
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And yet that term is mostly used as a non-loaded term that doesn't attempt to ascribe quality levels
29/01/2010 02:49:20 AM
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I like my definition of science fiction better than the one you quoted.
29/01/2010 05:16:36 AM
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I think estrangement is a key element, though
30/01/2010 11:00:19 PM
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I don't think estrangement is a necessary element.
30/01/2010 11:47:07 PM
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I mean it as a literary effect, that of creating a distance between text and reader
31/01/2010 12:03:34 AM
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Even if that's the meaning, I still disagree.
03/02/2010 12:49:58 AM
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Depends on how you view SF, I suppose
03/02/2010 04:20:56 AM
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I thought that was what we were mulling over
03/02/2010 04:38:35 AM
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Your unscientific anecdotal evidence sounds very odd to me.
28/01/2010 12:15:10 AM
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It might. I'm not purporting to speak for all of humanity (at least on this point).
28/01/2010 09:43:40 PM
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So, what you're saying is that watching the 2002 movie was sufficient? Good!
*NM*
26/01/2010 06:34:53 AM
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I'm not through it quite yet, but I do have a question
26/01/2010 12:24:14 PM
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Wait...you VOTED for this book?
26/01/2010 01:41:00 PM
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I honestly can't remember.
26/01/2010 01:55:39 PM
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Doctor Zhivago is one of the best novels ever written.
26/01/2010 02:12:35 PM
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Right, so now we all know that if we'd just listen to me more often, the world would be better.
26/01/2010 02:20:56 PM
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The problem was that the suggestions were generally not that good.
26/01/2010 02:32:50 PM
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You really are ignornant of what A.S. Byatt writes, aren't you?
27/01/2010 12:51:00 AM
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Oh, I fucking hate epistolary novels. Thank you for warning me.
27/01/2010 02:00:34 AM
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It's funny because I think it's a question of taste level.
26/01/2010 02:32:08 PM
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Curious George is a tale of many layers, as told by Werner Herzog
26/01/2010 02:34:27 PM
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On what basis?
26/01/2010 02:51:40 PM
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It's a children's book. Get over it. Democracy failed.
26/01/2010 02:55:03 PM
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Usually does, when those who know better keep silent.
26/01/2010 02:57:54 PM
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Regarding comfort zones
26/01/2010 05:08:50 PM
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Camilla, let's be honest here...
26/01/2010 05:40:08 PM
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Re: Camilla, let's be honest here...
26/01/2010 09:10:47 PM
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If that's your goal, Camilla, you failed.
27/01/2010 01:35:52 PM
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Possibly
27/01/2010 01:38:39 PM
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I have not been ranting and raving. I've been highly critical of the book, with much justification.
27/01/2010 01:45:05 PM
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Re: I've been highly critical of the book, with much justification.
27/01/2010 01:53:28 PM
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I was wondering how long it would take for you to blame me and Greg.
27/01/2010 02:26:12 PM
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Don't you get it? We bring this place down.
27/01/2010 02:42:32 PM
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Heh heh heh. Pink cardigan-wearing suburban cul-de-sac. I like it.
*NM*
27/01/2010 03:11:25 PM
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Re: I was wondering how long it would take for you to blame me and Greg.
27/01/2010 02:43:11 PM
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While that was not the intent, that is an added bonus.
27/01/2010 02:48:47 PM
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why is it a bonus?
27/01/2010 02:52:58 PM
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I said see above. You should have before the thought police, Rebekah, started to delete.
27/01/2010 02:59:07 PM
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Well, you wouldn't grow tired of us calling a novel shit if you chose a novel that wasn't shit.
27/01/2010 03:11:57 PM
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Re: Regarding comfort zones
27/01/2010 11:57:03 AM
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So. I really liked it.
26/01/2010 08:57:02 AM
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Yes, fearless leader, this is where I stand.
26/01/2010 11:04:23 PM
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Re: Yes, fearless leader, this is where I stand.
26/01/2010 11:49:03 PM
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We were talking about this last night.
27/01/2010 11:14:21 AM
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Re: We were talking about this last night.
27/01/2010 11:37:04 AM
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If you do that, I'm posting on the deeper meaning of Dan Brown.
27/01/2010 01:46:35 PM
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Feel free to.
27/01/2010 01:51:23 PM
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Your post-modern take on the novel is shit, shit, shit.
27/01/2010 02:28:56 PM
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Re: Your post-modern take on the novel is shit, shit, shit.
27/01/2010 02:45:41 PM
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I'm not setting up a straw man. I'm challenging your touchy-feely approach.
27/01/2010 03:15:00 PM
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My touchy-feely approach?
27/01/2010 05:09:04 PM
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Yes...using passing references in the text to justify a deeper analysis.
27/01/2010 05:16:10 PM
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Doesn't touchy-feely mean that it is steeped in or based on emotion?
27/01/2010 06:40:31 PM
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I think between the two of you I agree more with Tom here.
27/01/2010 07:01:08 PM
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Re: I think between the two of you I agree more with Tom here.
27/01/2010 08:29:32 PM
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See my reply to Tom for clarification, then.
27/01/2010 08:57:18 PM
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Re: See my reply to Tom for clarification, then.
27/01/2010 09:09:47 PM
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Er. Whose position are you arguing - mine or yours?
27/01/2010 10:33:01 PM
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Mine. Which is more complicated than a simple rejection. That is what I am saying.
01/02/2010 12:53:58 PM
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Do it. I'd read that.
27/01/2010 01:55:23 PM
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All righty, that's enough of that. For Tom, Greg, and... no, pretty much just you two.
27/01/2010 04:33:00 PM
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I call bullshit. I have been conducting the debate in a measured fashion.
27/01/2010 04:50:35 PM
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And ANOTHER THING
27/01/2010 05:05:17 PM
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Not everyone has finished reading it yet *NM*
27/01/2010 05:12:10 PM
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Okay, so you'll get one or two stragglers in a week to a month. It changes nothing.
27/01/2010 05:17:51 PM
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Re: Okay, so you'll get one or two stragglers in a week to a month. It changes nothing.
27/01/2010 06:41:11 PM
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We are discussing this book. We're discussing its faults.
27/01/2010 07:30:49 PM
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In the interest of discussing Dumas' intentions...
27/01/2010 08:03:24 PM
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Re: We are discussing this book. We're discussing its faults.
27/01/2010 08:30:19 PM
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The text doesn't warrant "close attention" any more than Dan Brown's works do.
27/01/2010 09:10:45 PM
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Also, do you think a good book would have generated this level of discussion? Of course not.
27/01/2010 05:21:45 PM
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What discussion?
27/01/2010 06:42:32 PM
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I said that we couldn't discuss the book on its own terms.
27/01/2010 07:35:32 PM
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Which I still think we can.
27/01/2010 08:35:35 PM
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Perhaps you shouldn't be breaking things down at all.
27/01/2010 09:06:59 PM
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Re: Perhaps you shouldn't be breaking things down at all.
27/01/2010 09:12:22 PM
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I apologize if I'm part of the reason you feel ganged up on.
27/01/2010 10:40:36 PM
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Re: I apologize if I'm part of the reason you feel ganged up on.
01/02/2010 12:56:03 PM
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Deary me.
27/01/2010 05:19:58 PM
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By "respect" do you mean that you want me to drop my debates?
27/01/2010 05:24:03 PM
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Not at all.
27/01/2010 05:35:34 PM
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I'm sorry as well - if I had any kind of willpower, it wouldn't have gotten that far.
27/01/2010 06:29:43 PM
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On the nature of the "Book Club"
28/01/2010 09:23:23 PM
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Any chance of seeing some shorter suggestions?
28/01/2010 10:20:59 PM
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Yes, shorter would be good.
28/01/2010 10:23:28 PM
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Well, you should have known better!
29/01/2010 01:29:40 AM
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All I can say is The Master and Margarita better be one by March. WE WAS ROBBED.
*NM*
29/01/2010 02:31:48 AM
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Well I'm late to the party
29/01/2010 06:21:18 AM
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No, you're early
01/02/2010 01:26:10 PM
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I still have yet to see that discussion, Camilla. *NM*
03/02/2010 12:46:24 AM
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Interesting way of dismissing what has already been discussed about the book
03/02/2010 04:22:26 AM
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Nah, there's been discussion, here and there inbetween the fighting.
*NM*
03/02/2010 04:39:24 PM
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An interesting quote from the book - does it jibe with your experience?
29/01/2010 11:23:54 PM
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