Usually, I find Dumas' books are carried by their characters. He has the ability to write characters that you can take out of the context and carry around with you as memories of real people (they are not merely functions of plot). This isn't really the case in this book. Mainly, I think, this is because he is leaning towards melodrama to a greater extent, and that requires that his characters be either bad or good, not shaded with grey areas (unlike his musketeers, for example).
There are also fewer historical characters (though they make a very few appearances) on the playing field, and that removes one of his strenghts.
I liked Luigi Vampa, mostly because I am a sucker for he idea of the literate bandit. And possibly also because he is just hinted at. Too many of the characters in this book are painted with strokes that are too broad, which means the minor characters become the more interesting.
I was also fascinated by the daughter of Danglars. That was a fairly unequivocal reference to lesbianism, and I can't believe I did not catch it the last time I read it. I was surprised at how stated it was in a book of this nature. Is the moral that a girl can only be independent if she renounce men altogether? Or the reverse, that if she desires such independence, she must be a lesbian? I am intrigued.
I also liked Noirtier. He was an actual character, I felt, not just a melodramatic plot tool. His son might have reached the same height with just a few more touches of shadowing. He had great potential in the beginning (at a time when he was really the only character who interested me), but became less nuanced towards the end.
The count/Dantes ... I find it difficult to give an opinion that is unequivocally yay or nay. He is interesting, though. In part because so much of his character is only vaguely hinted at. The gigantic gap between the characters of Dantes and the count -- because they really are not the same person -- emphasises the major span of time that we do not know anything about. And this is also the most interesting part of the story, for me: what is not told, or only suggested along the way. But the count as a character .... He appeals to me because he very clearly has a plan, and this creates a confidence that just as we saw the beginning, we will get to see the ending. But I am confused by his omniscience in some chapter and complete blindness in others. But I did like his deviousness and apparent ability to direct plot at whim.
Faria... I love Faria. He is the high point of the book for me. I always forget about his religiosity and remember only his insane knowledge, back story, tragedy, colour. Faria has texture, and I think he is the only real character in the book. The only reason to get out of Château d'If is that he is no longer there. I think I would be happily imprisoned for any number of years if I had a tunnel connecting me to that man. Which begs the question: should Dantés revenge himself on his enemies, or thank them thoroughly?
I thoroughly dislike reading about people who are too good to be believed. As my title suggests, the gallery of characters appears to be constructed according to a good/bad division (good come to good; bad come to worse -- that is what fiction means, after all ) with the warped count watching over it all.
This means, of course, that the more interesting characters are bound to be the bad ones. The good are inspired only through their internal goodness, whereas the bad need motivation. I was not a great fan of Valentine (but for some reason I do not mind young Morrel as much).
On a more visceral level, I obviously disliked the characters who I was meant to dislike. Danglars, Fernand, Caderousse, Benedetto .... They are Bad People.
Of course not. But that is entirely beside the point. The question is whether they were real, which so many Dumas characters are, but none in this book.
There is another thing that has been bugging me about the characters, and I cannot decide whether it is a stroke of genius or just off. They all change so much between the first and second periods. It is not only the count who completely changes personality -- they all do (except Mercedes and Villefort). Danglars perhaps least of the baddies, but Fernand? It is quite astonishing.
A word on the women, finally. Mercedes, Valentine, Madame de Villefort, Mlle Danglars, Madame Danglars, Haidee. I was suprised at the breadth, I confess. Some are obvious angels (Valentine, primarily), some obvious monsters (Madame de Villefort) -- in fact, it is interesting that it is in Villefort's house that we get the clichéd extremes of Woman.
Mercedes is interesting in that she did not wait or kill herself (the two options really open to her as a melodramatic heroine), but actually married Fernand (reneging on all the vows she made initially). She breaks out of the pattern and becomes one of the betrayers. This is of course why she cannot be awarded love in the end (which makes the end dissonant, in a way I did not like but found intriguing -- because the reason why I did not like it was that it did not fall into the expectations the genre and the earlier eulogising of Mercedes had created in me).
I already commented on Mlle Dangarls, but her mother is another of those that I cannot place. Her importance lay mainly in being a plot function, I felt. She has no personality of her own.
And Haidee. She has an interesting back story, but no colour herself, if that makes any sense. I am always a bit disappointed in her.
There are also fewer historical characters (though they make a very few appearances) on the playing field, and that removes one of his strenghts.
Who did you like?
I liked Luigi Vampa, mostly because I am a sucker for he idea of the literate bandit. And possibly also because he is just hinted at. Too many of the characters in this book are painted with strokes that are too broad, which means the minor characters become the more interesting.
I was also fascinated by the daughter of Danglars. That was a fairly unequivocal reference to lesbianism, and I can't believe I did not catch it the last time I read it. I was surprised at how stated it was in a book of this nature. Is the moral that a girl can only be independent if she renounce men altogether? Or the reverse, that if she desires such independence, she must be a lesbian? I am intrigued.
I also liked Noirtier. He was an actual character, I felt, not just a melodramatic plot tool. His son might have reached the same height with just a few more touches of shadowing. He had great potential in the beginning (at a time when he was really the only character who interested me), but became less nuanced towards the end.
The count/Dantes ... I find it difficult to give an opinion that is unequivocally yay or nay. He is interesting, though. In part because so much of his character is only vaguely hinted at. The gigantic gap between the characters of Dantes and the count -- because they really are not the same person -- emphasises the major span of time that we do not know anything about. And this is also the most interesting part of the story, for me: what is not told, or only suggested along the way. But the count as a character .... He appeals to me because he very clearly has a plan, and this creates a confidence that just as we saw the beginning, we will get to see the ending. But I am confused by his omniscience in some chapter and complete blindness in others. But I did like his deviousness and apparent ability to direct plot at whim.
Faria... I love Faria. He is the high point of the book for me. I always forget about his religiosity and remember only his insane knowledge, back story, tragedy, colour. Faria has texture, and I think he is the only real character in the book. The only reason to get out of Château d'If is that he is no longer there. I think I would be happily imprisoned for any number of years if I had a tunnel connecting me to that man. Which begs the question: should Dantés revenge himself on his enemies, or thank them thoroughly?
Who did you hate?
I thoroughly dislike reading about people who are too good to be believed. As my title suggests, the gallery of characters appears to be constructed according to a good/bad division (good come to good; bad come to worse -- that is what fiction means, after all ) with the warped count watching over it all.
This means, of course, that the more interesting characters are bound to be the bad ones. The good are inspired only through their internal goodness, whereas the bad need motivation. I was not a great fan of Valentine (but for some reason I do not mind young Morrel as much).
On a more visceral level, I obviously disliked the characters who I was meant to dislike. Danglars, Fernand, Caderousse, Benedetto .... They are Bad People.
Were they realistic?
Of course not. But that is entirely beside the point. The question is whether they were real, which so many Dumas characters are, but none in this book.
There is another thing that has been bugging me about the characters, and I cannot decide whether it is a stroke of genius or just off. They all change so much between the first and second periods. It is not only the count who completely changes personality -- they all do (except Mercedes and Villefort). Danglars perhaps least of the baddies, but Fernand? It is quite astonishing.
A word on the women, finally. Mercedes, Valentine, Madame de Villefort, Mlle Danglars, Madame Danglars, Haidee. I was suprised at the breadth, I confess. Some are obvious angels (Valentine, primarily), some obvious monsters (Madame de Villefort) -- in fact, it is interesting that it is in Villefort's house that we get the clichéd extremes of Woman.
Mercedes is interesting in that she did not wait or kill herself (the two options really open to her as a melodramatic heroine), but actually married Fernand (reneging on all the vows she made initially). She breaks out of the pattern and becomes one of the betrayers. This is of course why she cannot be awarded love in the end (which makes the end dissonant, in a way I did not like but found intriguing -- because the reason why I did not like it was that it did not fall into the expectations the genre and the earlier eulogising of Mercedes had created in me).
I already commented on Mlle Dangarls, but her mother is another of those that I cannot place. Her importance lay mainly in being a plot function, I felt. She has no personality of her own.
And Haidee. She has an interesting back story, but no colour herself, if that makes any sense. I am always a bit disappointed in her.
*MySmiley*
structured procrastinator
structured procrastinator
The Count of Monte Cristo by Alexandre Dumas - Book Club now open!
25/01/2010 10:54:37 PM
- 2444 Views
Why does the book have enduring appeal?
25/01/2010 10:57:37 PM
- 1282 Views
Or rather, does this book share any traits in common with pornography?
25/01/2010 11:14:01 PM
- 1408 Views
I think the revenge plot is actually fairly weak.
26/01/2010 03:43:04 AM
- 1316 Views
Re: I think the revenge plot is actually fairly weak.
26/01/2010 11:12:19 AM
- 1363 Views
In that case, the "release" is quite unsatisfying.
27/01/2010 01:42:28 PM
- 1474 Views
Which is precisely part of what makes the book interesting
27/01/2010 02:06:58 PM
- 1361 Views
He would not have known the book would be ruined by water. He thought he was being buried.
27/01/2010 02:15:02 PM
- 1263 Views
Oh, and your point on revenge - that's just reading too much into the text.
27/01/2010 02:16:05 PM
- 1194 Views
There is no such thing
27/01/2010 02:18:46 PM
- 1247 Views
I fundamentally disagree with your post-modern take on the novel.
27/01/2010 02:25:25 PM
- 1300 Views
Re: Which is precisely part of what makes the book interesting
27/01/2010 03:40:36 PM
- 1242 Views
Maybe it's of the same importance as the Lost Symbol.
27/01/2010 03:44:55 PM
- 1306 Views
I think one important question to ask is...
26/01/2010 12:00:17 AM
- 1351 Views
I like it, but it is purely on the adventure story level, and I've read the unabridged version.
26/01/2010 12:03:01 AM
- 1201 Views
I'm fairly certain I read the unabridged version. It was 1500 pages. *NM*
26/01/2010 02:36:10 AM
- 682 Views
I have read the abridged version a couple of times. I am reading the unabridged version this time.
26/01/2010 03:25:50 AM
- 1292 Views
I have read both
27/01/2010 01:37:00 AM
- 1372 Views
I actually didn't mean the people here on the site so much as readers in general.
27/01/2010 01:44:46 AM
- 1355 Views
Re: I actually didn't mean the people here on the site so much as readers in general.
27/01/2010 01:48:11 AM
- 1294 Views
Re: I got here too late, so I offer Umberto Eco's thoughts on the matter:
22/02/2010 06:59:13 PM
- 1474 Views
The book was very childish.
26/01/2010 03:05:01 AM
- 1411 Views
Granted, The Master and Margarita is also very much a fantasy book. *NM*
26/01/2010 03:07:45 AM
- 679 Views
No, it really isn't.
26/01/2010 03:10:08 AM
- 1360 Views
You know, this is a problem.
26/01/2010 03:43:14 AM
- 1331 Views
Thank God, I've never even heard of "Skol". Popov, yes, but Skol?
26/01/2010 03:49:08 AM
- 1336 Views
I've not tried it, but every time I go into liquor stores, it sits on the bottom shelf.
26/01/2010 03:57:03 AM
- 1234 Views
There's really nothing I can say to this that Greg didn't just say above.
26/01/2010 06:32:02 AM
- 1398 Views
Re: No, it really isn't.
26/01/2010 10:57:19 AM
- 1261 Views
Having Camilla concur with me on literary matters is very encouraging.
26/01/2010 01:37:23 PM
- 1331 Views
I do not agree with your complete dismissal of The Count of Monte Cristo, though
26/01/2010 04:58:58 PM
- 1286 Views
You make some rather odd claims here, Tom
27/01/2010 12:43:41 AM
- 1348 Views
My claims are far from odd. In fact, they're quite common.
27/01/2010 01:57:41 AM
- 1319 Views
In some circles; in others, they're rather antiquated nowadays
27/01/2010 02:21:03 AM
- 1253 Views
If you were trying to write literature, wouldn't the label sting for you?
27/01/2010 01:25:14 PM
- 1310 Views
I think it's easier to think of stories fitting into genre(s) than to think the same of authors
27/01/2010 02:40:29 PM
- 1374 Views
Allow me to clarify: I'm talking about authors' reactions to their books being so labelled.
27/01/2010 03:08:47 PM
- 1418 Views
But yet their reactions vary widely
27/01/2010 11:33:25 PM
- 1294 Views
My fundamental premise is that genre has the most utility when applied to derivative fiction.
28/01/2010 09:39:17 PM
- 1283 Views
And yet that term is mostly used as a non-loaded term that doesn't attempt to ascribe quality levels
29/01/2010 02:49:20 AM
- 1194 Views
I like my definition of science fiction better than the one you quoted.
29/01/2010 05:16:36 AM
- 1253 Views
I think estrangement is a key element, though
30/01/2010 11:00:19 PM
- 1225 Views
I don't think estrangement is a necessary element.
30/01/2010 11:47:07 PM
- 1430 Views
I mean it as a literary effect, that of creating a distance between text and reader
31/01/2010 12:03:34 AM
- 1231 Views
Even if that's the meaning, I still disagree.
03/02/2010 12:49:58 AM
- 1228 Views
Depends on how you view SF, I suppose
03/02/2010 04:20:56 AM
- 1105 Views
I thought that was what we were mulling over
03/02/2010 04:38:35 AM
- 1225 Views
Your unscientific anecdotal evidence sounds very odd to me.
28/01/2010 12:15:10 AM
- 1299 Views
It might. I'm not purporting to speak for all of humanity (at least on this point).
28/01/2010 09:43:40 PM
- 1348 Views
So, what you're saying is that watching the 2002 movie was sufficient? Good! *NM*
26/01/2010 06:34:53 AM
- 642 Views
I'm not through it quite yet, but I do have a question
26/01/2010 12:24:14 PM
- 1235 Views
Wait...you VOTED for this book?
26/01/2010 01:41:00 PM
- 1306 Views
I honestly can't remember.
26/01/2010 01:55:39 PM
- 1262 Views
Doctor Zhivago is one of the best novels ever written.
26/01/2010 02:12:35 PM
- 1273 Views
Right, so now we all know that if we'd just listen to me more often, the world would be better.
26/01/2010 02:20:56 PM
- 1278 Views
The problem was that the suggestions were generally not that good.
26/01/2010 02:32:50 PM
- 1326 Views
You really are ignornant of what A.S. Byatt writes, aren't you?
27/01/2010 12:51:00 AM
- 1294 Views
Oh, I fucking hate epistolary novels. Thank you for warning me.
27/01/2010 02:00:34 AM
- 1200 Views
It's funny because I think it's a question of taste level.
26/01/2010 02:32:08 PM
- 1383 Views
Curious George is a tale of many layers, as told by Werner Herzog
26/01/2010 02:34:27 PM
- 1405 Views
On what basis?
26/01/2010 02:51:40 PM
- 1339 Views
It's a children's book. Get over it. Democracy failed.
26/01/2010 02:55:03 PM
- 1342 Views
Usually does, when those who know better keep silent.
26/01/2010 02:57:54 PM
- 1246 Views
Regarding comfort zones
26/01/2010 05:08:50 PM
- 1363 Views
Camilla, let's be honest here...
26/01/2010 05:40:08 PM
- 1352 Views
Re: Camilla, let's be honest here...
26/01/2010 09:10:47 PM
- 1347 Views
If that's your goal, Camilla, you failed.
27/01/2010 01:35:52 PM
- 1410 Views
Possibly
27/01/2010 01:38:39 PM
- 1276 Views
I have not been ranting and raving. I've been highly critical of the book, with much justification.
27/01/2010 01:45:05 PM
- 1277 Views
Re: I've been highly critical of the book, with much justification.
27/01/2010 01:53:28 PM
- 1265 Views
I was wondering how long it would take for you to blame me and Greg.
27/01/2010 02:26:12 PM
- 1399 Views
Don't you get it? We bring this place down.
27/01/2010 02:42:32 PM
- 1250 Views
Heh heh heh. Pink cardigan-wearing suburban cul-de-sac. I like it. *NM*
27/01/2010 03:11:25 PM
- 643 Views
Re: I was wondering how long it would take for you to blame me and Greg.
27/01/2010 02:43:11 PM
- 1263 Views
While that was not the intent, that is an added bonus.
27/01/2010 02:48:47 PM
- 1258 Views
why is it a bonus?
27/01/2010 02:52:58 PM
- 1228 Views
I said see above. You should have before the thought police, Rebekah, started to delete.
27/01/2010 02:59:07 PM
- 1510 Views
Well, you wouldn't grow tired of us calling a novel shit if you chose a novel that wasn't shit.
27/01/2010 03:11:57 PM
- 1249 Views
Re: Regarding comfort zones
27/01/2010 11:57:03 AM
- 1322 Views
So. I really liked it.
26/01/2010 08:57:02 AM
- 1390 Views
Yes, fearless leader, this is where I stand.
26/01/2010 11:04:23 PM
- 1268 Views
Re: Yes, fearless leader, this is where I stand.
26/01/2010 11:49:03 PM
- 1306 Views
We were talking about this last night.
27/01/2010 11:14:21 AM
- 1390 Views
Re: We were talking about this last night.
27/01/2010 11:37:04 AM
- 1390 Views
If you do that, I'm posting on the deeper meaning of Dan Brown.
27/01/2010 01:46:35 PM
- 1366 Views
Feel free to.
27/01/2010 01:51:23 PM
- 1337 Views
Your post-modern take on the novel is shit, shit, shit.
27/01/2010 02:28:56 PM
- 1300 Views
Re: Your post-modern take on the novel is shit, shit, shit.
27/01/2010 02:45:41 PM
- 1323 Views
I'm not setting up a straw man. I'm challenging your touchy-feely approach.
27/01/2010 03:15:00 PM
- 1206 Views
My touchy-feely approach?
27/01/2010 05:09:04 PM
- 1226 Views
Yes...using passing references in the text to justify a deeper analysis.
27/01/2010 05:16:10 PM
- 1279 Views
Doesn't touchy-feely mean that it is steeped in or based on emotion?
27/01/2010 06:40:31 PM
- 1248 Views
I think between the two of you I agree more with Tom here.
27/01/2010 07:01:08 PM
- 1254 Views
Re: I think between the two of you I agree more with Tom here.
27/01/2010 08:29:32 PM
- 1309 Views
See my reply to Tom for clarification, then.
27/01/2010 08:57:18 PM
- 1352 Views
Re: See my reply to Tom for clarification, then.
27/01/2010 09:09:47 PM
- 1269 Views
Er. Whose position are you arguing - mine or yours?
27/01/2010 10:33:01 PM
- 1152 Views
Mine. Which is more complicated than a simple rejection. That is what I am saying.
01/02/2010 12:53:58 PM
- 1129 Views
Do it. I'd read that.
27/01/2010 01:55:23 PM
- 1390 Views
All righty, that's enough of that. For Tom, Greg, and... no, pretty much just you two.
27/01/2010 04:33:00 PM
- 1321 Views
I call bullshit. I have been conducting the debate in a measured fashion.
27/01/2010 04:50:35 PM
- 1276 Views
And ANOTHER THING
27/01/2010 05:05:17 PM
- 1188 Views
Not everyone has finished reading it yet *NM*
27/01/2010 05:12:10 PM
- 704 Views
Okay, so you'll get one or two stragglers in a week to a month. It changes nothing.
27/01/2010 05:17:51 PM
- 1338 Views
Re: Okay, so you'll get one or two stragglers in a week to a month. It changes nothing.
27/01/2010 06:41:11 PM
- 1296 Views
We are discussing this book. We're discussing its faults.
27/01/2010 07:30:49 PM
- 1219 Views
In the interest of discussing Dumas' intentions...
27/01/2010 08:03:24 PM
- 1391 Views
Re: We are discussing this book. We're discussing its faults.
27/01/2010 08:30:19 PM
- 1361 Views
The text doesn't warrant "close attention" any more than Dan Brown's works do.
27/01/2010 09:10:45 PM
- 1227 Views
Also, do you think a good book would have generated this level of discussion? Of course not.
27/01/2010 05:21:45 PM
- 1264 Views
What discussion?
27/01/2010 06:42:32 PM
- 1293 Views
I said that we couldn't discuss the book on its own terms.
27/01/2010 07:35:32 PM
- 1377 Views
Which I still think we can.
27/01/2010 08:35:35 PM
- 1257 Views
Perhaps you shouldn't be breaking things down at all.
27/01/2010 09:06:59 PM
- 1366 Views
Re: Perhaps you shouldn't be breaking things down at all.
27/01/2010 09:12:22 PM
- 1310 Views
I apologize if I'm part of the reason you feel ganged up on.
27/01/2010 10:40:36 PM
- 1277 Views
Re: I apologize if I'm part of the reason you feel ganged up on.
01/02/2010 12:56:03 PM
- 1197 Views
Deary me.
27/01/2010 05:19:58 PM
- 1468 Views
By "respect" do you mean that you want me to drop my debates?
27/01/2010 05:24:03 PM
- 1222 Views
Not at all.
27/01/2010 05:35:34 PM
- 1404 Views
I'm sorry as well - if I had any kind of willpower, it wouldn't have gotten that far.
27/01/2010 06:29:43 PM
- 1303 Views
On the nature of the "Book Club"
28/01/2010 09:23:23 PM
- 1138 Views
Any chance of seeing some shorter suggestions?
28/01/2010 10:20:59 PM
- 1361 Views
Yes, shorter would be good.
28/01/2010 10:23:28 PM
- 1213 Views
Well, you should have known better!
29/01/2010 01:29:40 AM
- 1254 Views
All I can say is The Master and Margarita better be one by March. WE WAS ROBBED. *NM*
29/01/2010 02:31:48 AM
- 608 Views
Well I'm late to the party
29/01/2010 06:21:18 AM
- 1192 Views
No, you're early
01/02/2010 01:26:10 PM
- 1096 Views
I still have yet to see that discussion, Camilla. *NM*
03/02/2010 12:46:24 AM
- 668 Views
Interesting way of dismissing what has already been discussed about the book
03/02/2010 04:22:26 AM
- 1356 Views
Nah, there's been discussion, here and there inbetween the fighting. *NM*
03/02/2010 04:39:24 PM
- 612 Views
An interesting quote from the book - does it jibe with your experience?
29/01/2010 11:23:54 PM
- 1268 Views