I think people should read non-fiction, and The Nine Hundred Days is an excellent book.
Tom Send a noteboard - 05/12/2009 04:41:50 PM
I see your point. It is essentially that my argument is a slippery slope if I say speculative fiction is too divorced from reality.
However, I generally reject slippery slope arguments on the grounds (pun intended) that perspective is still important. Fiction has been an important part of helping people to feel a personal connection to distant or remote events from the dawn of recorded history. No one asks, for example, if a man was really attacked on the road from Jerusalem to Jericho and then helped only by a Samaritan, who stopped to help when no one else would. In fact, we assume the story is not true, but it represents a moral idea that has been so powerful that the "Good Samaritan" is almost a cliche phrase in our society.
However, the more elements of the unreal you introduce into a story, the more likely the audience is going to be distracted by that or find reasons to discount the moral you're trying to impart. To take an example that I (with regret at this point) used in my original post, the story in Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind does not require the audience to believe too much that is fanciful. The only fanciful element is a technology that does not exist and that is explained in a very simple manner. If the audience accepts that one little deviance from the world they understand themselves to be living in, the story works.
If, however, that story were in space, it requires people to believe that the future will be as depicted. If various types of aliens exist, it then asks the audience to accept that various types of aliens are zooming around the stars as we speak. More and more of your audience is lost with each step.
That having been said, I do think people should read non-fiction as well. I read non-fiction on a regular basis (in most years, I read as much non-fiction as I read fiction, if not more). Last year I read 24 non-fiction works and 15 works of fiction (I removed the Bhagavad Gita re-read and reading of books of the Bible in the original languages from that list before counting). This year, I read 20 non-fiction works and 19 works of fiction (again, discounting books that are considered sacred texts, but not discounting commentaries on the same).
However, I generally reject slippery slope arguments on the grounds (pun intended) that perspective is still important. Fiction has been an important part of helping people to feel a personal connection to distant or remote events from the dawn of recorded history. No one asks, for example, if a man was really attacked on the road from Jerusalem to Jericho and then helped only by a Samaritan, who stopped to help when no one else would. In fact, we assume the story is not true, but it represents a moral idea that has been so powerful that the "Good Samaritan" is almost a cliche phrase in our society.
However, the more elements of the unreal you introduce into a story, the more likely the audience is going to be distracted by that or find reasons to discount the moral you're trying to impart. To take an example that I (with regret at this point) used in my original post, the story in Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind does not require the audience to believe too much that is fanciful. The only fanciful element is a technology that does not exist and that is explained in a very simple manner. If the audience accepts that one little deviance from the world they understand themselves to be living in, the story works.
If, however, that story were in space, it requires people to believe that the future will be as depicted. If various types of aliens exist, it then asks the audience to accept that various types of aliens are zooming around the stars as we speak. More and more of your audience is lost with each step.
That having been said, I do think people should read non-fiction as well. I read non-fiction on a regular basis (in most years, I read as much non-fiction as I read fiction, if not more). Last year I read 24 non-fiction works and 15 works of fiction (I removed the Bhagavad Gita re-read and reading of books of the Bible in the original languages from that list before counting). This year, I read 20 non-fiction works and 19 works of fiction (again, discounting books that are considered sacred texts, but not discounting commentaries on the same).
Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
In Support of Other Fiction
- 01/12/2009 09:06:14 PM
2436 Views
- 01/12/2009 09:22:56 PM
1502 Views
- 01/12/2009 09:22:56 PM
1502 Views
Re:
- 01/12/2009 09:28:04 PM
1504 Views
- 01/12/2009 09:28:04 PM
1504 Views
you shouldn't feel the need to defend a non SF/F suggestion, just don't
- 03/12/2009 03:34:28 PM
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Well, let me offer a diverging view on the topic of speculative fiction.
- 01/12/2009 09:46:35 PM
1428 Views
I would counter that the stripping away removes a level of reality.
- 01/12/2009 10:05:28 PM
1505 Views
That's a Slippery Slope Because You Could Argue On the Same Basis That All Fiction Does That.
- 01/12/2009 11:34:34 PM
1563 Views
I don't see the slippery slope, but rather, a confirmation of my original point.
- 02/12/2009 01:41:24 AM
1476 Views
perhaps some university will do a study
- 03/12/2009 03:55:54 PM
1470 Views
I'd like to see it
- 03/12/2009 09:15:12 PM
1500 Views
I Think I'll Post a Thread on This.
- 03/12/2009 06:47:05 PM
1443 Views
I'd like to see it.
- 03/12/2009 09:23:07 PM
1526 Views
Regarding depth in Jordan
- 03/12/2009 09:31:19 PM
1468 Views
I was thinking about that too
- 03/12/2009 10:05:40 PM
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Re: I was thinking about that too
- 03/12/2009 10:09:26 PM
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Destroying the Wheel is meaningless.
- 03/12/2009 10:18:08 PM
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Re: Destroying the Wheel is meaningless.
- 03/12/2009 10:30:15 PM
1484 Views
It would. Destroying the Wheel would likely make him a Buddhist.
- 03/12/2009 10:51:17 PM
1421 Views
I Totally Missed That.
- 04/12/2009 10:45:56 PM
1563 Views
- 04/12/2009 10:45:56 PM
1563 Views
Re: I Totally Missed That.
- 04/12/2009 10:47:59 PM
1493 Views
- 04/12/2009 10:47:59 PM
1493 Views
I Don't Believe It Cursory, But Comparative.
- 04/12/2009 11:29:36 PM
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Re: Well, let me offer a diverging view on the topic of speculative fiction.
- 02/12/2009 12:28:30 AM
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I find Michel Houellebecq to be one of the most intriguing writers of our time
- 01/12/2009 11:14:05 PM
1540 Views
wait! there's somebody "dirtier" than Piers Anthony or Philip Jose Farmer???
- 03/12/2009 04:00:28 PM
1518 Views
Nice post.
- 02/12/2009 12:03:09 AM
1555 Views
I guess I'll break my silence after almost a month and a half...
- 02/12/2009 12:23:07 AM
1547 Views
- 02/12/2009 12:23:07 AM
1547 Views
Popcorn?
- 02/12/2009 12:31:44 AM
1504 Views
I'm glad I could drive you from your Carthusian retreat, Larry
- 02/12/2009 01:58:49 AM
1503 Views
- 02/12/2009 01:58:49 AM
1503 Views
It won't last for long - have too many things still to deal with in my life
- 02/12/2009 02:36:15 AM
1507 Views
- 02/12/2009 02:36:15 AM
1507 Views
That's too bad. I'll have to learn monasterial sign language to continue a dialogue.
- 02/12/2009 03:49:01 AM
1433 Views
I concur
- 02/12/2009 12:27:13 AM
1431 Views
I like your framing of the issue (and Shannara is the Taco Bell of writing).
- 02/12/2009 02:03:51 AM
1509 Views
Am i the only one who reads books for fun?
- 02/12/2009 12:33:52 AM
1525 Views
I certainly didn't read The Lost Symbol for ANY cultural, intellectual or edifying reason.
- 02/12/2009 02:05:45 AM
1457 Views
Of course not. Personally, I don't touch anything other than mind candy when I'm in school,
- 02/12/2009 03:29:23 AM
1459 Views
one of the things that is important to me in books/shows
- 03/12/2009 05:20:29 PM
1365 Views
WoT has decent characterization, though a little overwrought. Harrington... not so much.
- 04/12/2009 04:26:43 AM
1634 Views
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is a science fiction/fantasy movie.
- 02/12/2009 12:54:08 AM
1513 Views
Reading only speculative literature is limiting and monotonous.
- 02/12/2009 02:09:42 AM
1533 Views
I was going to say exactly that about "real" literature: monotonous and limiting.
- 02/12/2009 01:57:49 PM
1480 Views
I would not disagree with you if you said that.
- 02/12/2009 02:27:08 PM
1389 Views
Most non-speculative fiction is fluff as well though.
- 03/12/2009 05:38:32 PM
1370 Views
Which brings us back to my point.
- 03/12/2009 08:04:24 PM
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I would like to see the study and statistics that produced this answer.
- 04/12/2009 05:24:02 PM
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Re: I would like to see the study and statistics that produced this answer.
- 04/12/2009 10:42:33 PM
1410 Views
Actually, it is a film that does not fit neatly into one category
- 02/12/2009 11:16:20 AM
1490 Views
Science Fiction is the most PERTINANT form of fiction in the world today
- 02/12/2009 12:57:19 AM
1507 Views
"Pertinent", not "Pertinant". If it weren't in all caps I'd have ignored it this time.
- 02/12/2009 02:13:36 AM
1487 Views
SF&F and 'real literature' are not mutually exclusive
- 02/12/2009 01:19:05 AM
1458 Views
So why don't we occasionally focus on "real" books that are technically spec fiction?
- 02/12/2009 01:25:04 AM
1405 Views
Why must we limit our focus in that way?
- 02/12/2009 02:20:11 AM
1421 Views
I don't see it as limiting or forcing.
- 02/12/2009 03:16:07 AM
1424 Views
"Elite club" or "elitist clique"?
- 02/12/2009 03:52:11 AM
1392 Views
- 02/12/2009 03:52:11 AM
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Elite club is how we midwestern rednecks refer to Elitist Clique. *chews on a piece of hay*
- 02/12/2009 02:52:01 PM
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I was born in the Midwest.
- 02/12/2009 03:01:36 PM
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I know.
- 02/12/2009 03:12:05 PM
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...!
- 02/12/2009 03:17:57 PM
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Admit it. You know what I'm talking about.
- 02/12/2009 03:29:31 PM
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Re: Admit it. You know what I'm talking about.
- 02/12/2009 03:31:26 PM
1385 Views
Huh! I really didn't think of you as being a masochist.
- 02/12/2009 01:51:55 AM
1420 Views
Read what you like to read.
- 02/12/2009 04:18:53 AM
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I'll super size you. Fine. *NM*
- 02/12/2009 04:32:58 AM
702 Views
Oh noes! I'm getting word-fat!
- 02/12/2009 04:59:05 AM
1435 Views
I seem to have struck a nerve.
- 02/12/2009 05:20:27 AM
1456 Views
Apparently not the nerve you think, though.
- 02/12/2009 06:42:02 AM
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Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure.
- 02/12/2009 02:13:10 PM
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Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure.
- 02/12/2009 09:40:28 PM
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I really did get under your skin
- 02/12/2009 09:58:18 PM
1354 Views
Tom as much as you raise some great points, you are being a condescending ass.
- 03/12/2009 04:26:27 AM
1424 Views
You're entitled to your opinion. I don't care.
- 03/12/2009 04:51:18 AM
1393 Views
I keep replying. It's like a sickness.
- 03/12/2009 05:15:28 AM
1417 Views
Hm.
- 02/12/2009 06:58:56 AM
2020 Views
Re-read my exact point.
- 02/12/2009 02:18:20 PM
1368 Views
No. Some kind of reading is indeed essential.
- 02/12/2009 02:28:22 PM
1494 Views
There may have been an assumption about literature due to the reason for the post.
- 02/12/2009 02:37:47 PM
1444 Views
Somehow I get the feeling that this post hasn't caused quite as much controversy
- 02/12/2009 06:53:18 AM
1539 Views
As I see it...
- 02/12/2009 11:38:07 AM
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Yep.
- 02/12/2009 02:18:22 PM
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Re: Yep.
- 02/12/2009 03:35:38 PM
1431 Views
Euripides was poorly received, initially.
- 02/12/2009 03:57:58 PM
1344 Views
I wasn't looking to generate controversy
- 02/12/2009 02:19:13 PM
1549 Views
Well... then I'm going to have to agree with Craig a bit.
- 02/12/2009 02:32:59 PM
1527 Views
Well, I was being somewhat denigrating. "Unnecessarily" or not is a matter of debate.
- 02/12/2009 02:40:29 PM
1371 Views
Well, it's only "unnecessary" if you don't want people to be turned off of your message immediately. *NM*
- 02/12/2009 09:42:46 PM
680 Views
Judging from the responses, most people weren't turned off immediately.
- 02/12/2009 09:59:35 PM
1380 Views
All reading of fiction is a diversion by the very nature of the activity.
- 02/12/2009 03:43:05 PM
1416 Views
Diversion from direct action, yes. Diversion from reality, no.
- 02/12/2009 04:15:48 PM
1379 Views
I maintain that all acts of reading fiction are a diversion from reality/ the realistic
- 02/12/2009 05:43:16 PM
1399 Views
It seems a regressive argument to me.
- 03/12/2009 01:18:02 AM
1351 Views
You're playing a game.
- 03/12/2009 03:40:14 PM
1456 Views
I fundamentally agree with much of what you're saying, but there is a distinction.
- 03/12/2009 06:44:02 PM
1494 Views
Spec fic is perhaps at it's best in autocracies?
- 02/12/2009 04:10:56 PM
1324 Views
Bulgakov
- 02/12/2009 04:25:17 PM
1457 Views
I've only read the first chapter of M&M.
- 02/12/2009 04:36:09 PM
1408 Views
Re: I've only read the first chapter of M&M.
- 02/12/2009 04:40:16 PM
1316 Views
Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me.
- 02/12/2009 05:17:31 PM
1378 Views
Re: Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me.
- 02/12/2009 05:40:16 PM
1413 Views
I suppose.
- 02/12/2009 06:26:30 PM
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Re: I suppose.
- 02/12/2009 07:25:26 PM
1417 Views
This was something I was exploring earlier.
- 02/12/2009 04:34:41 PM
1495 Views
Funny thing about the hivemind antagonist.
- 02/12/2009 05:13:30 PM
1415 Views
I didn't see the zombies reading speculative fiction
- 02/12/2009 05:30:26 PM
1499 Views
- 02/12/2009 05:30:26 PM
1499 Views
Oh, they prefer Clive Cussler.
- 02/12/2009 06:23:42 PM
1459 Views
There's an interesting book in Russian that might be translated somewhere.
- 02/12/2009 10:02:48 PM
1467 Views
i think it comes more down to quality than genre.
- 02/12/2009 04:55:20 PM
1437 Views
I disagree with the ultimate conclusion but agree with many of your points.
- 02/12/2009 05:43:04 PM
1404 Views
the illiad is a classic
- 02/12/2009 06:35:24 PM
1423 Views
There's only one "L" in Iliad
- 02/12/2009 08:18:38 PM
1378 Views
It took me a few minutes to agree
- 02/12/2009 07:04:59 PM
1403 Views
Well, I'm glad if you got something out of the post!
- 02/12/2009 09:13:26 PM
1401 Views
- 02/12/2009 09:13:26 PM
1401 Views
Many people have mentioned that there's quite a bit of good sff lit out there and you seem to agree.
- 02/12/2009 07:33:42 PM
1496 Views
The website is called "Read and Find Out". It doesn't specify what we're supposed to read.
- 02/12/2009 08:42:19 PM
1467 Views
- 02/12/2009 08:42:19 PM
1467 Views
Anti the idea ? I see no evidence for this.
- 02/12/2009 09:50:37 PM
1428 Views
Heh
- 02/12/2009 09:56:30 PM
1422 Views
I have a few objections.
- 03/12/2009 12:24:43 AM
1440 Views
where else should we talk about it?
- 03/12/2009 12:37:26 AM
1426 Views
There's a difference between having threads about it and focusing the official book club on it.
- 03/12/2009 12:40:53 AM
1490 Views
This is the Sci-Fi and Fantasy Board for site optimization purposes.
- 03/12/2009 01:07:39 AM
14409 Views
random thoughts stole my subject line
- 03/12/2009 01:56:07 AM
1476 Views
I think I could agree with a "comfort food" analogy
- 03/12/2009 02:12:01 AM
1445 Views
That's it
- 03/12/2009 04:02:28 AM
1554 Views
- 03/12/2009 04:02:28 AM
1554 Views
Question: is it really science fiction without one of the following:
- 03/12/2009 05:13:21 AM
1430 Views
technically speaking, fantasy is classed as a sub heading under science fiction. *NM*
- 03/12/2009 02:51:12 PM
611 Views
Yes, it is but actually...
- 03/12/2009 09:31:44 PM
1414 Views
But Dan Brown rocks da house!!!
*NM*
- 03/12/2009 02:16:47 AM
716 Views
*NM*
- 03/12/2009 02:16:47 AM
716 Views
another thing wrong with your argument
- 03/12/2009 03:30:19 PM
1446 Views
Absolutely not. And, as I said before, there's only one "L" in Iliad.
- 03/12/2009 06:53:35 PM
1243 Views
sorry about my atrocious spelling
(including the one on pertinent)
- 03/12/2009 07:14:59 PM
1535 Views
(including the one on pertinent)
- 03/12/2009 07:14:59 PM
1535 Views
is it just me, or is this now the largest post/thread yet on RAFO.com??? 168 replies so far! *NM*
- 03/12/2009 05:03:25 PM
655 Views
Congratulations on the replies count
- 03/12/2009 09:30:41 PM
1531 Views
That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree.
- 03/12/2009 10:50:29 PM
1457 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree.
- 04/12/2009 07:44:56 PM
1491 Views
But the objective truth of a setting can be measured.
- 04/12/2009 10:37:10 PM
1404 Views
But does it make any difference in the objective value of the book?
- 06/12/2009 09:35:59 AM
1554 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree.
- 04/12/2009 10:25:08 PM
1434 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree.
- 06/12/2009 09:36:11 AM
1419 Views
I've obviously missed the show here...
- 04/12/2009 12:14:30 AM
1365 Views
I'm not sure that's right. This thing just keeps growing.
- 04/12/2009 12:46:24 AM
1489 Views
What, your penis?
- 06/12/2009 02:40:09 AM
1428 Views
Don't you know it!
- 06/12/2009 03:28:16 PM
1288 Views
- 06/12/2009 03:28:16 PM
1288 Views
You talk the talk, that's for sure.
- 07/12/2009 08:14:41 PM
1450 Views
- 07/12/2009 08:14:41 PM
1450 Views
Metaphor versus literalism
- 04/12/2009 05:42:03 PM
1467 Views
Metaphor divorced from the reality runs risks, however.
- 04/12/2009 10:25:47 PM
1361 Views
Honestly, the moral can always be dismissed as inapplicable if you want to dismiss it.
- 05/12/2009 12:16:39 AM
1378 Views
While that's true, it's much harder to just dismiss Mockingbird.
- 05/12/2009 03:57:42 AM
1364 Views
Then why read fiction at all? It's all a diversion.
- 05/12/2009 04:16:06 PM
1377 Views
I think people should read non-fiction, and The Nine Hundred Days is an excellent book.
- 05/12/2009 04:41:50 PM
1433 Views
aha. but.
- 07/12/2009 03:56:48 PM
1593 Views
