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I think people should read non-fiction, and The Nine Hundred Days is an excellent book. Tom Send a noteboard - 05/12/2009 04:41:50 PM
I see your point. It is essentially that my argument is a slippery slope if I say speculative fiction is too divorced from reality.

However, I generally reject slippery slope arguments on the grounds (pun intended) that perspective is still important. Fiction has been an important part of helping people to feel a personal connection to distant or remote events from the dawn of recorded history. No one asks, for example, if a man was really attacked on the road from Jerusalem to Jericho and then helped only by a Samaritan, who stopped to help when no one else would. In fact, we assume the story is not true, but it represents a moral idea that has been so powerful that the "Good Samaritan" is almost a cliche phrase in our society.

However, the more elements of the unreal you introduce into a story, the more likely the audience is going to be distracted by that or find reasons to discount the moral you're trying to impart. To take an example that I (with regret at this point) used in my original post, the story in Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind does not require the audience to believe too much that is fanciful. The only fanciful element is a technology that does not exist and that is explained in a very simple manner. If the audience accepts that one little deviance from the world they understand themselves to be living in, the story works.

If, however, that story were in space, it requires people to believe that the future will be as depicted. If various types of aliens exist, it then asks the audience to accept that various types of aliens are zooming around the stars as we speak. More and more of your audience is lost with each step.

That having been said, I do think people should read non-fiction as well. I read non-fiction on a regular basis (in most years, I read as much non-fiction as I read fiction, if not more). Last year I read 24 non-fiction works and 15 works of fiction (I removed the Bhagavad Gita re-read and reading of books of the Bible in the original languages from that list before counting). This year, I read 20 non-fiction works and 19 works of fiction (again, discounting books that are considered sacred texts, but not discounting commentaries on the same).
Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.

ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius

Ummaka qinnassa nīk!

*MySmiley*
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In Support of Other Fiction - 01/12/2009 09:06:14 PM 2192 Views
- 01/12/2009 09:22:56 PM 1265 Views
Re: - 01/12/2009 09:28:04 PM 1239 Views
Wow...we were just Santified *NM* - 03/12/2009 09:16:21 PM 630 Views
Well, let me offer a diverging view on the topic of speculative fiction. - 01/12/2009 09:46:35 PM 1163 Views
I would counter that the stripping away removes a level of reality. - 01/12/2009 10:05:28 PM 1268 Views
That's a Slippery Slope Because You Could Argue On the Same Basis That All Fiction Does That. - 01/12/2009 11:34:34 PM 1298 Views
I don't see the slippery slope, but rather, a confirmation of my original point. - 02/12/2009 01:41:24 AM 1251 Views
perhaps some university will do a study - 03/12/2009 03:55:54 PM 1228 Views
I'd like to see it - 03/12/2009 09:15:12 PM 1272 Views
I'll get to it once I finish my thesis - 03/12/2009 09:56:29 PM 1201 Views
If it looks like crap and smells like crap... - 03/12/2009 10:04:15 PM 1216 Views
I Think I'll Post a Thread on This. - 03/12/2009 06:47:05 PM 1175 Views
I'd like to see it. - 03/12/2009 09:23:07 PM 1226 Views
Regarding depth in Jordan - 03/12/2009 09:31:19 PM 1199 Views
I was thinking about that too - 03/12/2009 10:05:40 PM 1189 Views
Re: I was thinking about that too - 03/12/2009 10:09:26 PM 1290 Views
Destroying the Wheel is meaningless. - 03/12/2009 10:18:08 PM 1185 Views
Re: Destroying the Wheel is meaningless. - 03/12/2009 10:30:15 PM 1213 Views
I Totally Missed That. - 04/12/2009 10:45:56 PM 1283 Views
Re: I Totally Missed That. - 04/12/2009 10:47:59 PM 1271 Views
I Don't Believe It Cursory, But Comparative. - 04/12/2009 11:29:36 PM 1364 Views
Publication bookend Y2K? - 05/12/2009 10:36:01 AM 1265 Views
They're Thick Bookends. - 05/12/2009 06:12:06 PM 1209 Views
I'll Try to Have It Up Tomorrow Early. - 04/12/2009 11:24:18 PM 1301 Views
I like it. - 01/12/2009 10:28:48 PM 1224 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 01:43:05 AM 1366 Views
I find Michel Houellebecq to be one of the most intriguing writers of our time - 01/12/2009 11:14:05 PM 1303 Views
And, in recent memory, Orwell was a first-rate writer. - 02/12/2009 01:44:29 AM 1298 Views
wait! there's somebody "dirtier" than Piers Anthony or Philip Jose Farmer??? - 03/12/2009 04:00:28 PM 1269 Views
PJF is dirty? - 04/12/2009 12:16:12 AM 1133 Views
Nice post. - 02/12/2009 12:03:09 AM 1321 Views
Perhaps you're right. - 02/12/2009 01:47:10 AM 1182 Views
In its entirety? No. - 02/12/2009 02:00:10 PM 1226 Views
I agree! - 02/12/2009 12:17:10 AM 1497 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 01:50:22 AM 1141 Views
I guess I'll break my silence after almost a month and a half... - 02/12/2009 12:23:07 AM 1323 Views
Popcorn? - 02/12/2009 12:31:44 AM 1253 Views
Yes - 02/12/2009 12:39:10 AM 1301 Views
Lovecraft? - 02/12/2009 12:51:55 AM 1285 Views
Re-read what I said - 02/12/2009 12:55:08 AM 1343 Views
aahh - 02/12/2009 09:26:40 AM 1216 Views
Larry, please tell me you weren't... - 03/12/2009 04:33:32 PM 1072 Views
I concur - 02/12/2009 12:27:13 AM 1183 Views
I like your framing of the issue (and Shannara is the Taco Bell of writing). - 02/12/2009 02:03:51 AM 1268 Views
Thank you - 02/12/2009 09:30:42 AM 1199 Views
more like the mom&pop greasy-spoon diner of writing *NM* - 03/12/2009 05:00:21 PM 580 Views
I'm going to put this in my sig, if you don't mind. - 02/12/2009 03:31:13 AM 1266 Views
hehehe - 02/12/2009 09:31:28 AM 1150 Views
Am i the only one who reads books for fun? - 02/12/2009 12:33:52 AM 1304 Views
There isn't necessarily a contradiction - 02/12/2009 12:38:43 AM 1255 Views
I certainly didn't read The Lost Symbol for ANY cultural, intellectual or edifying reason. - 02/12/2009 02:05:45 AM 1202 Views
it didn't come across that way - 03/12/2009 05:15:36 PM 1222 Views
Of course not. Personally, I don't touch anything other than mind candy when I'm in school, - 02/12/2009 03:29:23 AM 1181 Views
one of the things that is important to me in books/shows - 03/12/2009 05:20:29 PM 1129 Views
We agree! - 03/12/2009 08:03:00 PM 1204 Views
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is a science fiction/fantasy movie. - 02/12/2009 12:54:08 AM 1265 Views
i was gonna point that out. thnks. *NM* - 02/12/2009 01:13:47 AM 528 Views
Reading only speculative literature is limiting and monotonous. - 02/12/2009 02:09:42 AM 1296 Views
I was going to say exactly that about "real" literature: monotonous and limiting. - 02/12/2009 01:57:49 PM 1208 Views
I think his point was that only SF/F wasn't good food. - 02/12/2009 02:15:29 PM 1197 Views
I would not disagree with you if you said that. - 02/12/2009 02:27:08 PM 1135 Views
Most non-speculative fiction is fluff as well though. - 03/12/2009 05:38:32 PM 1129 Views
hear hear!! I agree totally wert-man - 03/12/2009 07:20:09 PM 1195 Views
Which brings us back to my point. - 03/12/2009 08:04:24 PM 1249 Views
Actually, it is a film that does not fit neatly into one category - 02/12/2009 11:16:20 AM 1260 Views
Science Fiction is the most PERTINANT form of fiction in the world today - 02/12/2009 12:57:19 AM 1201 Views
don't get me wrong - 02/12/2009 01:28:08 AM 1230 Views
SF&F and 'real literature' are not mutually exclusive - 02/12/2009 01:19:05 AM 1191 Views
No, they are not - 02/12/2009 02:18:53 AM 1201 Views
This line is a load of bull - 03/12/2009 02:39:53 PM 1324 Views
So why don't we occasionally focus on "real" books that are technically spec fiction? - 02/12/2009 01:25:04 AM 1169 Views
Why must we limit our focus in that way? - 02/12/2009 02:20:11 AM 1174 Views
I don't see it as limiting or forcing. - 02/12/2009 03:16:07 AM 1179 Views
"Elite club" or "elitist clique"? - 02/12/2009 03:52:11 AM 1174 Views
Either way, I want in. *NM* - 02/12/2009 11:33:52 AM 619 Views
Elite club is how we midwestern rednecks refer to Elitist Clique. *chews on a piece of hay* - 02/12/2009 02:52:01 PM 1325 Views
I was born in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:01:36 PM 1228 Views
I know. - 02/12/2009 03:12:05 PM 1160 Views
Green Acres in reverse, eh? - 02/12/2009 03:38:09 PM 1204 Views
lmao - 02/12/2009 06:21:17 PM 1355 Views
*piledrivers you* - 02/12/2009 06:28:02 PM 1138 Views
...! - 02/12/2009 03:17:57 PM 1170 Views
Admit it. You know what I'm talking about. - 02/12/2009 03:29:31 PM 1191 Views
Re: Admit it. You know what I'm talking about. - 02/12/2009 03:31:26 PM 1144 Views
Vermont isn't in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:39:36 PM 1144 Views
Re: Vermont isn't in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:42:47 PM 1192 Views
Huh! I really didn't think of you as being a masochist. - 02/12/2009 01:51:55 AM 1168 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 02:21:00 AM 1066 Views
Shitstorm! - 02/12/2009 03:06:59 AM 1131 Views
Heh heh heh. - 02/12/2009 03:45:40 AM 1185 Views
Read what you like to read. - 02/12/2009 04:18:53 AM 1267 Views
I'll super size you. Fine. *NM* - 02/12/2009 04:32:58 AM 583 Views
Oh noes! I'm getting word-fat! - 02/12/2009 04:59:05 AM 1183 Views
I seem to have struck a nerve. - 02/12/2009 05:20:27 AM 1216 Views
Apparently not the nerve you think, though. - 02/12/2009 06:42:02 AM 1293 Views
Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 02:13:10 PM 1185 Views
Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 03:26:59 PM 1214 Views
Agreed. - 02/12/2009 03:30:50 PM 1127 Views
Re: Agreed. - 02/12/2009 03:32:06 PM 1125 Views
Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 09:40:28 PM 1258 Views
I really did get under your skin - 02/12/2009 09:58:18 PM 1121 Views
- 02/12/2009 10:06:46 PM 1116 Views
Tom as much as you raise some great points, you are being a condescending ass. - 03/12/2009 04:26:27 AM 1199 Views
You're entitled to your opinion. I don't care. - 03/12/2009 04:51:18 AM 1154 Views
I keep replying. It's like a sickness. - 03/12/2009 05:15:28 AM 1169 Views
Your subject line reinforces my opinion. - 03/12/2009 05:31:50 AM 1091 Views
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room. *NM* - 03/12/2009 07:21:05 AM 571 Views
LOL! - 04/12/2009 12:21:36 AM 1145 Views
See, you just proved my point. - 04/12/2009 12:39:59 AM 1190 Views
Hm. - 02/12/2009 06:58:56 AM 1784 Views
Re-read my exact point. - 02/12/2009 02:18:20 PM 1133 Views
No. Some kind of reading is indeed essential. - 02/12/2009 02:28:22 PM 1282 Views
Somehow I get the feeling that this post hasn't caused quite as much controversy - 02/12/2009 06:53:18 AM 1282 Views
As I see it... - 02/12/2009 11:38:07 AM 1180 Views
Yep. - 02/12/2009 02:18:22 PM 1325 Views
Re: Yep. - 02/12/2009 03:35:38 PM 1182 Views
Euripides was poorly received, initially. - 02/12/2009 03:57:58 PM 1104 Views
Re: Euripides was poorly received, initially. - 02/12/2009 04:00:35 PM 1123 Views
I know. - 02/12/2009 04:18:16 PM 1200 Views
Re: I know. - 02/12/2009 04:23:14 PM 1135 Views
That is why he's so good, in my opinion. - 02/12/2009 06:15:45 PM 1296 Views
All reading of fiction is a diversion by the very nature of the activity. - 02/12/2009 03:43:05 PM 1162 Views
Diversion from direct action, yes. Diversion from reality, no. - 02/12/2009 04:15:48 PM 1148 Views
I maintain that all acts of reading fiction are a diversion from reality/ the realistic - 02/12/2009 05:43:16 PM 1165 Views
It seems a regressive argument to me. - 03/12/2009 01:18:02 AM 1112 Views
You're playing a game. - 03/12/2009 03:40:14 PM 1202 Views
I like your response. *NM* - 03/12/2009 05:37:09 PM 543 Views
I fundamentally agree with much of what you're saying, but there is a distinction. - 03/12/2009 06:44:02 PM 1188 Views
Oh I concur on that distinction. - 04/12/2009 09:06:34 PM 1236 Views
Spec fic is perhaps at it's best in autocracies? - 02/12/2009 04:10:56 PM 1107 Views
Bulgakov - 02/12/2009 04:25:17 PM 1180 Views
I've only read the first chapter of M&M. - 02/12/2009 04:36:09 PM 1172 Views
Re: I've only read the first chapter of M&M. - 02/12/2009 04:40:16 PM 1098 Views
Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me. - 02/12/2009 05:17:31 PM 1137 Views
Re: Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me. - 02/12/2009 05:40:16 PM 1193 Views
I suppose. - 02/12/2009 06:26:30 PM 1179 Views
Re: I suppose. - 02/12/2009 07:25:26 PM 1185 Views
Well, I don't hold escapism in such low esteem *NM* - 02/12/2009 07:56:13 PM 573 Views
That is what I mean - 02/12/2009 08:36:02 PM 1106 Views
This was something I was exploring earlier. - 02/12/2009 04:34:41 PM 1218 Views
Funny thing about the hivemind antagonist. - 02/12/2009 05:13:30 PM 1175 Views
I didn't see the zombies reading speculative fiction - 02/12/2009 05:30:26 PM 1256 Views
Oh, they prefer Clive Cussler. - 02/12/2009 06:23:42 PM 1234 Views
i think it comes more down to quality than genre. - 02/12/2009 04:55:20 PM 1199 Views
I disagree with the ultimate conclusion but agree with many of your points. - 02/12/2009 05:43:04 PM 1147 Views
the illiad is a classic - 02/12/2009 06:35:24 PM 1183 Views
There's only one "L" in Iliad - 02/12/2009 08:18:38 PM 1150 Views
Is there a safe answer to that question? *NM* - 02/12/2009 10:33:21 PM 600 Views
Maybe not. *NM* - 03/12/2009 12:59:09 AM 564 Views
It took me a few minutes to agree - 02/12/2009 07:04:59 PM 1145 Views
Well, I'm glad if you got something out of the post! - 02/12/2009 09:13:26 PM 1169 Views
Re: Well, I'm glad if you got something out of the post! - 02/12/2009 09:20:49 PM 1139 Views
I don't know. I've only read about 30 pages so far. *NM* - 02/12/2009 10:05:54 PM 605 Views
Many people have mentioned that there's quite a bit of good sff lit out there and you seem to agree. - 02/12/2009 07:33:42 PM 1269 Views
Hmmm - 02/12/2009 08:40:53 PM 1163 Views
Re: Hmmm - 02/12/2009 10:48:02 PM 1184 Views
The website is called "Read and Find Out". It doesn't specify what we're supposed to read. - 02/12/2009 08:42:19 PM 1238 Views
Anti the idea ? I see no evidence for this. - 02/12/2009 09:50:37 PM 1198 Views
Heh - 02/12/2009 09:56:30 PM 1194 Views
What do you mean ? Almost all the repliers agree with Tom - 03/12/2009 11:01:08 AM 1155 Views
Re: What do you mean ? Almost all the repliers agree with Tom - 03/12/2009 11:10:35 AM 1190 Views
I see. You don't read announcements. - 03/12/2009 11:12:04 AM 1137 Views
No, but it does bill itself as science fiction/fantasy. - 02/12/2009 10:51:41 PM 1272 Views
Yes. - 03/12/2009 12:01:30 AM 1268 Views
I think Rebekah and Camilla put it well. - 02/12/2009 10:05:24 PM 1249 Views
I think they make good points, as I said above. - 02/12/2009 10:56:55 PM 1145 Views
I agree with in principle - 02/12/2009 11:22:19 PM 1120 Views
Certainly. People are free to skip any discussion. - 03/12/2009 01:01:40 AM 1250 Views
I have a few objections. - 03/12/2009 12:24:43 AM 1223 Views
where else should we talk about it? - 03/12/2009 12:37:26 AM 1165 Views
random thoughts stole my subject line - 03/12/2009 01:56:07 AM 1222 Views
I think I could agree with a "comfort food" analogy - 03/12/2009 02:12:01 AM 1229 Views
Re: I think I could agree with a "comfort food" analogy - 03/12/2009 02:38:17 AM 1273 Views
That's it - 03/12/2009 04:02:28 AM 1287 Views
Question: is it really science fiction without one of the following: - 03/12/2009 05:13:21 AM 1202 Views
Certainly - 03/12/2009 06:13:38 AM 1264 Views
technically speaking, fantasy is classed as a sub heading under science fiction. *NM* - 03/12/2009 02:51:12 PM 491 Views
According to whom? *NM* - 03/12/2009 03:55:45 PM 624 Views
Yeah. What she asked! *NM* - 03/12/2009 09:23:55 PM 600 Views
Yes, it is but actually... - 03/12/2009 09:31:44 PM 1196 Views
Eternal Sunshine doesn't have a mad scientist. - 03/12/2009 10:09:01 PM 1116 Views
Really? - 04/12/2009 07:01:42 PM 1159 Views
But Dan Brown rocks da house!!! *NM* - 03/12/2009 02:16:47 AM 598 Views
*pumps fist* Give it up for Dan Brown! *NM* - 03/12/2009 03:58:23 AM 587 Views
That's Dan "booyah" Brown!!! Booyah!!! *NM* - 04/12/2009 02:00:56 AM 601 Views
another thing wrong with your argument - 03/12/2009 03:30:19 PM 1176 Views
Absolutely not. And, as I said before, there's only one "L" in Iliad. - 03/12/2009 06:53:35 PM 993 Views
sorry about my atrocious spelling (including the one on pertinent) - 03/12/2009 07:14:59 PM 1300 Views
No problem. On the substantive points: - 03/12/2009 08:00:33 PM 1228 Views
more importantly, which I think it being lost in all this, - 03/12/2009 08:05:27 PM 1200 Views
I'm not reading the Iliad again, once was enough - 04/12/2009 12:19:07 PM 1152 Views
Congratulations on the replies count - 03/12/2009 09:30:41 PM 1304 Views
That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 03/12/2009 10:50:29 PM 1215 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 04/12/2009 07:44:56 PM 1235 Views
But the objective truth of a setting can be measured. - 04/12/2009 10:37:10 PM 1160 Views
But does it make any difference in the objective value of the book? - 06/12/2009 09:35:59 AM 1318 Views
YES. - 06/12/2009 03:34:17 PM 1105 Views
NO - 07/12/2009 08:40:33 PM 1208 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 04/12/2009 10:25:08 PM 1180 Views
Yes, it is worse with movies. Much worse, in fact. - 04/12/2009 10:33:18 PM 1215 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 06/12/2009 09:36:11 AM 1177 Views
Maybe we're different, but I don't care for FX - 06/12/2009 01:37:53 PM 1118 Views
This is not about the personal taste - 07/12/2009 08:50:34 PM 1217 Views
I've obviously missed the show here... - 04/12/2009 12:14:30 AM 1135 Views
I'm not sure that's right. This thing just keeps growing. - 04/12/2009 12:46:24 AM 1251 Views
What, your penis? - 06/12/2009 02:40:09 AM 1148 Views
Don't you know it! - 06/12/2009 03:28:16 PM 1051 Views
You talk the talk, that's for sure. - 07/12/2009 08:14:41 PM 1200 Views
Hate to break it to you... - 07/12/2009 09:54:24 PM 1255 Views
I thought you were gonna tell me... - 08/12/2009 03:07:54 PM 1308 Views
Metaphor versus literalism - 04/12/2009 05:42:03 PM 1223 Views
Metaphor divorced from the reality runs risks, however. - 04/12/2009 10:25:47 PM 1134 Views
Then why read fiction at all? It's all a diversion. - 05/12/2009 04:16:06 PM 1140 Views
I think people should read non-fiction, and The Nine Hundred Days is an excellent book. - 05/12/2009 04:41:50 PM 1126 Views
aha. but. - 07/12/2009 03:56:48 PM 1346 Views
Quoting Nietzsche is really hitting below the belt. - 07/12/2009 09:12:34 PM 1285 Views
It is good I was only paraphrasing, then - 08/12/2009 10:44:14 AM 1182 Views

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