I think people should read non-fiction, and The Nine Hundred Days is an excellent book.
Tom Send a noteboard - 05/12/2009 04:41:50 PM
I see your point. It is essentially that my argument is a slippery slope if I say speculative fiction is too divorced from reality.
However, I generally reject slippery slope arguments on the grounds (pun intended) that perspective is still important. Fiction has been an important part of helping people to feel a personal connection to distant or remote events from the dawn of recorded history. No one asks, for example, if a man was really attacked on the road from Jerusalem to Jericho and then helped only by a Samaritan, who stopped to help when no one else would. In fact, we assume the story is not true, but it represents a moral idea that has been so powerful that the "Good Samaritan" is almost a cliche phrase in our society.
However, the more elements of the unreal you introduce into a story, the more likely the audience is going to be distracted by that or find reasons to discount the moral you're trying to impart. To take an example that I (with regret at this point) used in my original post, the story in Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind does not require the audience to believe too much that is fanciful. The only fanciful element is a technology that does not exist and that is explained in a very simple manner. If the audience accepts that one little deviance from the world they understand themselves to be living in, the story works.
If, however, that story were in space, it requires people to believe that the future will be as depicted. If various types of aliens exist, it then asks the audience to accept that various types of aliens are zooming around the stars as we speak. More and more of your audience is lost with each step.
That having been said, I do think people should read non-fiction as well. I read non-fiction on a regular basis (in most years, I read as much non-fiction as I read fiction, if not more). Last year I read 24 non-fiction works and 15 works of fiction (I removed the Bhagavad Gita re-read and reading of books of the Bible in the original languages from that list before counting). This year, I read 20 non-fiction works and 19 works of fiction (again, discounting books that are considered sacred texts, but not discounting commentaries on the same).
However, I generally reject slippery slope arguments on the grounds (pun intended) that perspective is still important. Fiction has been an important part of helping people to feel a personal connection to distant or remote events from the dawn of recorded history. No one asks, for example, if a man was really attacked on the road from Jerusalem to Jericho and then helped only by a Samaritan, who stopped to help when no one else would. In fact, we assume the story is not true, but it represents a moral idea that has been so powerful that the "Good Samaritan" is almost a cliche phrase in our society.
However, the more elements of the unreal you introduce into a story, the more likely the audience is going to be distracted by that or find reasons to discount the moral you're trying to impart. To take an example that I (with regret at this point) used in my original post, the story in Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind does not require the audience to believe too much that is fanciful. The only fanciful element is a technology that does not exist and that is explained in a very simple manner. If the audience accepts that one little deviance from the world they understand themselves to be living in, the story works.
If, however, that story were in space, it requires people to believe that the future will be as depicted. If various types of aliens exist, it then asks the audience to accept that various types of aliens are zooming around the stars as we speak. More and more of your audience is lost with each step.
That having been said, I do think people should read non-fiction as well. I read non-fiction on a regular basis (in most years, I read as much non-fiction as I read fiction, if not more). Last year I read 24 non-fiction works and 15 works of fiction (I removed the Bhagavad Gita re-read and reading of books of the Bible in the original languages from that list before counting). This year, I read 20 non-fiction works and 19 works of fiction (again, discounting books that are considered sacred texts, but not discounting commentaries on the same).
Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
In Support of Other Fiction
- 01/12/2009 09:06:14 PM
2384 Views
- 01/12/2009 09:22:56 PM
1433 Views
- 01/12/2009 09:22:56 PM
1433 Views
Re:
- 01/12/2009 09:28:04 PM
1431 Views
- 01/12/2009 09:28:04 PM
1431 Views
you shouldn't feel the need to defend a non SF/F suggestion, just don't
- 03/12/2009 03:34:28 PM
1424 Views
Well, let me offer a diverging view on the topic of speculative fiction.
- 01/12/2009 09:46:35 PM
1362 Views
I would counter that the stripping away removes a level of reality.
- 01/12/2009 10:05:28 PM
1444 Views
That's a Slippery Slope Because You Could Argue On the Same Basis That All Fiction Does That.
- 01/12/2009 11:34:34 PM
1499 Views
I don't see the slippery slope, but rather, a confirmation of my original point.
- 02/12/2009 01:41:24 AM
1410 Views
perhaps some university will do a study
- 03/12/2009 03:55:54 PM
1414 Views
I'd like to see it
- 03/12/2009 09:15:12 PM
1436 Views
I Think I'll Post a Thread on This.
- 03/12/2009 06:47:05 PM
1377 Views
I'd like to see it.
- 03/12/2009 09:23:07 PM
1454 Views
Regarding depth in Jordan
- 03/12/2009 09:31:19 PM
1407 Views
I was thinking about that too
- 03/12/2009 10:05:40 PM
1403 Views
Re: I was thinking about that too
- 03/12/2009 10:09:26 PM
1470 Views
Destroying the Wheel is meaningless.
- 03/12/2009 10:18:08 PM
1341 Views
Re: Destroying the Wheel is meaningless.
- 03/12/2009 10:30:15 PM
1417 Views
It would. Destroying the Wheel would likely make him a Buddhist.
- 03/12/2009 10:51:17 PM
1366 Views
I Totally Missed That.
- 04/12/2009 10:45:56 PM
1504 Views
- 04/12/2009 10:45:56 PM
1504 Views
Re: I Totally Missed That.
- 04/12/2009 10:47:59 PM
1437 Views
- 04/12/2009 10:47:59 PM
1437 Views
I Don't Believe It Cursory, But Comparative.
- 04/12/2009 11:29:36 PM
1561 Views
Re: Well, let me offer a diverging view on the topic of speculative fiction.
- 02/12/2009 12:28:30 AM
1400 Views
I find Michel Houellebecq to be one of the most intriguing writers of our time
- 01/12/2009 11:14:05 PM
1485 Views
wait! there's somebody "dirtier" than Piers Anthony or Philip Jose Farmer???
- 03/12/2009 04:00:28 PM
1455 Views
Nice post.
- 02/12/2009 12:03:09 AM
1487 Views
I guess I'll break my silence after almost a month and a half...
- 02/12/2009 12:23:07 AM
1499 Views
- 02/12/2009 12:23:07 AM
1499 Views
Popcorn?
- 02/12/2009 12:31:44 AM
1438 Views
I'm glad I could drive you from your Carthusian retreat, Larry
- 02/12/2009 01:58:49 AM
1432 Views
- 02/12/2009 01:58:49 AM
1432 Views
It won't last for long - have too many things still to deal with in my life
- 02/12/2009 02:36:15 AM
1452 Views
- 02/12/2009 02:36:15 AM
1452 Views
That's too bad. I'll have to learn monasterial sign language to continue a dialogue.
- 02/12/2009 03:49:01 AM
1368 Views
I concur
- 02/12/2009 12:27:13 AM
1378 Views
I like your framing of the issue (and Shannara is the Taco Bell of writing).
- 02/12/2009 02:03:51 AM
1448 Views
Am i the only one who reads books for fun?
- 02/12/2009 12:33:52 AM
1470 Views
I certainly didn't read The Lost Symbol for ANY cultural, intellectual or edifying reason.
- 02/12/2009 02:05:45 AM
1397 Views
Of course not. Personally, I don't touch anything other than mind candy when I'm in school,
- 02/12/2009 03:29:23 AM
1399 Views
one of the things that is important to me in books/shows
- 03/12/2009 05:20:29 PM
1310 Views
WoT has decent characterization, though a little overwrought. Harrington... not so much.
- 04/12/2009 04:26:43 AM
1578 Views
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is a science fiction/fantasy movie.
- 02/12/2009 12:54:08 AM
1456 Views
Reading only speculative literature is limiting and monotonous.
- 02/12/2009 02:09:42 AM
1473 Views
I was going to say exactly that about "real" literature: monotonous and limiting.
- 02/12/2009 01:57:49 PM
1420 Views
I would not disagree with you if you said that.
- 02/12/2009 02:27:08 PM
1327 Views
Most non-speculative fiction is fluff as well though.
- 03/12/2009 05:38:32 PM
1306 Views
Which brings us back to my point.
- 03/12/2009 08:04:24 PM
1427 Views
I would like to see the study and statistics that produced this answer.
- 04/12/2009 05:24:02 PM
1323 Views
Re: I would like to see the study and statistics that produced this answer.
- 04/12/2009 10:42:33 PM
1356 Views
Actually, it is a film that does not fit neatly into one category
- 02/12/2009 11:16:20 AM
1433 Views
Science Fiction is the most PERTINANT form of fiction in the world today
- 02/12/2009 12:57:19 AM
1436 Views
"Pertinent", not "Pertinant". If it weren't in all caps I'd have ignored it this time.
- 02/12/2009 02:13:36 AM
1429 Views
SF&F and 'real literature' are not mutually exclusive
- 02/12/2009 01:19:05 AM
1393 Views
So why don't we occasionally focus on "real" books that are technically spec fiction?
- 02/12/2009 01:25:04 AM
1337 Views
Why must we limit our focus in that way?
- 02/12/2009 02:20:11 AM
1353 Views
I don't see it as limiting or forcing.
- 02/12/2009 03:16:07 AM
1359 Views
"Elite club" or "elitist clique"?
- 02/12/2009 03:52:11 AM
1331 Views
- 02/12/2009 03:52:11 AM
1331 Views
Elite club is how we midwestern rednecks refer to Elitist Clique. *chews on a piece of hay*
- 02/12/2009 02:52:01 PM
1526 Views
I was born in the Midwest.
- 02/12/2009 03:01:36 PM
1380 Views
I know.
- 02/12/2009 03:12:05 PM
1360 Views
...!
- 02/12/2009 03:17:57 PM
1326 Views
Admit it. You know what I'm talking about.
- 02/12/2009 03:29:31 PM
1385 Views
Re: Admit it. You know what I'm talking about.
- 02/12/2009 03:31:26 PM
1323 Views
Huh! I really didn't think of you as being a masochist.
- 02/12/2009 01:51:55 AM
1363 Views
Read what you like to read.
- 02/12/2009 04:18:53 AM
1482 Views
I'll super size you. Fine. *NM*
- 02/12/2009 04:32:58 AM
672 Views
Oh noes! I'm getting word-fat!
- 02/12/2009 04:59:05 AM
1373 Views
I seem to have struck a nerve.
- 02/12/2009 05:20:27 AM
1379 Views
Apparently not the nerve you think, though.
- 02/12/2009 06:42:02 AM
1456 Views
Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure.
- 02/12/2009 02:13:10 PM
1410 Views
Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure.
- 02/12/2009 09:40:28 PM
1457 Views
I really did get under your skin
- 02/12/2009 09:58:18 PM
1302 Views
Tom as much as you raise some great points, you are being a condescending ass.
- 03/12/2009 04:26:27 AM
1368 Views
You're entitled to your opinion. I don't care.
- 03/12/2009 04:51:18 AM
1333 Views
I keep replying. It's like a sickness.
- 03/12/2009 05:15:28 AM
1354 Views
Hm.
- 02/12/2009 06:58:56 AM
1968 Views
Re-read my exact point.
- 02/12/2009 02:18:20 PM
1307 Views
No. Some kind of reading is indeed essential.
- 02/12/2009 02:28:22 PM
1447 Views
There may have been an assumption about literature due to the reason for the post.
- 02/12/2009 02:37:47 PM
1390 Views
Somehow I get the feeling that this post hasn't caused quite as much controversy
- 02/12/2009 06:53:18 AM
1480 Views
As I see it...
- 02/12/2009 11:38:07 AM
1356 Views
Yep.
- 02/12/2009 02:18:22 PM
1504 Views
Re: Yep.
- 02/12/2009 03:35:38 PM
1367 Views
Euripides was poorly received, initially.
- 02/12/2009 03:57:58 PM
1285 Views
I wasn't looking to generate controversy
- 02/12/2009 02:19:13 PM
1488 Views
Well... then I'm going to have to agree with Craig a bit.
- 02/12/2009 02:32:59 PM
1478 Views
Well, I was being somewhat denigrating. "Unnecessarily" or not is a matter of debate.
- 02/12/2009 02:40:29 PM
1307 Views
Well, it's only "unnecessary" if you don't want people to be turned off of your message immediately. *NM*
- 02/12/2009 09:42:46 PM
651 Views
Judging from the responses, most people weren't turned off immediately.
- 02/12/2009 09:59:35 PM
1297 Views
All reading of fiction is a diversion by the very nature of the activity.
- 02/12/2009 03:43:05 PM
1356 Views
Diversion from direct action, yes. Diversion from reality, no.
- 02/12/2009 04:15:48 PM
1317 Views
I maintain that all acts of reading fiction are a diversion from reality/ the realistic
- 02/12/2009 05:43:16 PM
1340 Views
It seems a regressive argument to me.
- 03/12/2009 01:18:02 AM
1290 Views
You're playing a game.
- 03/12/2009 03:40:14 PM
1388 Views
I fundamentally agree with much of what you're saying, but there is a distinction.
- 03/12/2009 06:44:02 PM
1388 Views
Spec fic is perhaps at it's best in autocracies?
- 02/12/2009 04:10:56 PM
1268 Views
Bulgakov
- 02/12/2009 04:25:17 PM
1389 Views
I've only read the first chapter of M&M.
- 02/12/2009 04:36:09 PM
1342 Views
Re: I've only read the first chapter of M&M.
- 02/12/2009 04:40:16 PM
1253 Views
Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me.
- 02/12/2009 05:17:31 PM
1324 Views
Re: Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me.
- 02/12/2009 05:40:16 PM
1356 Views
I suppose.
- 02/12/2009 06:26:30 PM
1343 Views
Re: I suppose.
- 02/12/2009 07:25:26 PM
1360 Views
This was something I was exploring earlier.
- 02/12/2009 04:34:41 PM
1417 Views
Funny thing about the hivemind antagonist.
- 02/12/2009 05:13:30 PM
1337 Views
I didn't see the zombies reading speculative fiction
- 02/12/2009 05:30:26 PM
1445 Views
- 02/12/2009 05:30:26 PM
1445 Views
Oh, they prefer Clive Cussler.
- 02/12/2009 06:23:42 PM
1408 Views
There's an interesting book in Russian that might be translated somewhere.
- 02/12/2009 10:02:48 PM
1418 Views
i think it comes more down to quality than genre.
- 02/12/2009 04:55:20 PM
1374 Views
I disagree with the ultimate conclusion but agree with many of your points.
- 02/12/2009 05:43:04 PM
1348 Views
the illiad is a classic
- 02/12/2009 06:35:24 PM
1358 Views
There's only one "L" in Iliad
- 02/12/2009 08:18:38 PM
1332 Views
It took me a few minutes to agree
- 02/12/2009 07:04:59 PM
1339 Views
Well, I'm glad if you got something out of the post!
- 02/12/2009 09:13:26 PM
1347 Views
- 02/12/2009 09:13:26 PM
1347 Views
Many people have mentioned that there's quite a bit of good sff lit out there and you seem to agree.
- 02/12/2009 07:33:42 PM
1442 Views
The website is called "Read and Find Out". It doesn't specify what we're supposed to read.
- 02/12/2009 08:42:19 PM
1419 Views
- 02/12/2009 08:42:19 PM
1419 Views
Anti the idea ? I see no evidence for this.
- 02/12/2009 09:50:37 PM
1375 Views
Heh
- 02/12/2009 09:56:30 PM
1366 Views
I have a few objections.
- 03/12/2009 12:24:43 AM
1380 Views
where else should we talk about it?
- 03/12/2009 12:37:26 AM
1370 Views
There's a difference between having threads about it and focusing the official book club on it.
- 03/12/2009 12:40:53 AM
1433 Views
This is the Sci-Fi and Fantasy Board for site optimization purposes.
- 03/12/2009 01:07:39 AM
14348 Views
random thoughts stole my subject line
- 03/12/2009 01:56:07 AM
1415 Views
I think I could agree with a "comfort food" analogy
- 03/12/2009 02:12:01 AM
1388 Views
That's it
- 03/12/2009 04:02:28 AM
1491 Views
- 03/12/2009 04:02:28 AM
1491 Views
Question: is it really science fiction without one of the following:
- 03/12/2009 05:13:21 AM
1363 Views
technically speaking, fantasy is classed as a sub heading under science fiction. *NM*
- 03/12/2009 02:51:12 PM
581 Views
Yes, it is but actually...
- 03/12/2009 09:31:44 PM
1363 Views
But Dan Brown rocks da house!!!
*NM*
- 03/12/2009 02:16:47 AM
682 Views
*NM*
- 03/12/2009 02:16:47 AM
682 Views
another thing wrong with your argument
- 03/12/2009 03:30:19 PM
1390 Views
Absolutely not. And, as I said before, there's only one "L" in Iliad.
- 03/12/2009 06:53:35 PM
1179 Views
sorry about my atrocious spelling
(including the one on pertinent)
- 03/12/2009 07:14:59 PM
1465 Views
(including the one on pertinent)
- 03/12/2009 07:14:59 PM
1465 Views
is it just me, or is this now the largest post/thread yet on RAFO.com??? 168 replies so far! *NM*
- 03/12/2009 05:03:25 PM
624 Views
Congratulations on the replies count
- 03/12/2009 09:30:41 PM
1464 Views
That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree.
- 03/12/2009 10:50:29 PM
1388 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree.
- 04/12/2009 07:44:56 PM
1431 Views
But the objective truth of a setting can be measured.
- 04/12/2009 10:37:10 PM
1336 Views
But does it make any difference in the objective value of the book?
- 06/12/2009 09:35:59 AM
1490 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree.
- 04/12/2009 10:25:08 PM
1368 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree.
- 06/12/2009 09:36:11 AM
1359 Views
I've obviously missed the show here...
- 04/12/2009 12:14:30 AM
1306 Views
I'm not sure that's right. This thing just keeps growing.
- 04/12/2009 12:46:24 AM
1428 Views
What, your penis?
- 06/12/2009 02:40:09 AM
1371 Views
Don't you know it!
- 06/12/2009 03:28:16 PM
1231 Views
- 06/12/2009 03:28:16 PM
1231 Views
You talk the talk, that's for sure.
- 07/12/2009 08:14:41 PM
1380 Views
- 07/12/2009 08:14:41 PM
1380 Views
Metaphor versus literalism
- 04/12/2009 05:42:03 PM
1395 Views
Metaphor divorced from the reality runs risks, however.
- 04/12/2009 10:25:47 PM
1308 Views
Honestly, the moral can always be dismissed as inapplicable if you want to dismiss it.
- 05/12/2009 12:16:39 AM
1319 Views
While that's true, it's much harder to just dismiss Mockingbird.
- 05/12/2009 03:57:42 AM
1303 Views
Then why read fiction at all? It's all a diversion.
- 05/12/2009 04:16:06 PM
1315 Views
I think people should read non-fiction, and The Nine Hundred Days is an excellent book.
- 05/12/2009 04:41:50 PM
1368 Views
aha. but.
- 07/12/2009 03:56:48 PM
1538 Views
