Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree.
Ellestra Send a noteboard - 04/12/2009 07:44:56 PM
The call for diversity was essentially based on the fact that many here would be content and happy to discuss, in the book club, ten books, one after the other, that are all derivative crap, just on the basis of the fact that they are sci-fi or fantasy.
As for my point, it was not that something relevant ceases to be science fiction. However, it was that much of what is published as science fiction or fantasy is crap. I pointed out that much of this may have to do with the fact that the market drives the publishing industry. The masses have spoken, and they want more Tolkien clones and new spins on Orson Scott Card. When books that don't target a few set popular markets come out, it's because the publishing company is willing to take a risk based on their perceived strength of the book. The risk is less with a Tolkien clone, so formulaic, well-worn premises get repackaged just like Hollywood blockbusters get repackaged. I therefore disagree with the "90% of everything is crap" quote - a greater proportion of sci-fi and fantasy is crap than other literature.
This is the point where I disagree strongly. I mean I agree that the market is full of clones of anything that's been popular but again that's true for any genre. The mainstream is as prone to fads (especially the ones concerning "style" ) as anything else. Publishing industry thrives on this. That's why so many covers bear the "another [well known author name]". The trick is to find books that won't feel like you wasted your time (and money) afterwards. But that's something that different for each and everyone of us and it changes with time. There was a time when I stopped reading fantasy altogether. Lately I feel like mainstream literature is wasting my time - telling same stories but just in less and less comprehensible style.
As such, the labels "science fiction" and "fantasy" end up, perhaps not defining, but at least indicting the quality of stories written in those genres.
Furthermore, as I wrote in another response, many people will look at the "speculative" nature of a work and say (like my father did to The Lord of the Rings, "That's a pile of shit. Magic, orcs, elves and wizards - it's just too unrealistic for me." The difference between that book and the book on male prostitutes in Thailand you referenced is that the latter exist, and even if the setting is unreal for you, you can correct that by going to Thailand and meeting people who were abused as children and forced into prostitution. If it's historical, you can pull up photos that show the reality of the time period, or go to a museum to see art from that time and place. You can't do that with Tolkien because it never existed.
And you keep insisting in this thread that SF equals space ships, robots and mad scientists. As I said before Thailand, XIV century or Moon are just settings. They say nothing about how true the stories are, how much light they shed on human nature. Even if I went to Thailand and lived there I won't find that person or that life. His tale was told through the mind of a writer and is ultimately unreal. I've read to many times about how writers change truth to fit the story they were telling to believe in 'true stories'. Even if the setting can be visited the world in books in not the one we live in. It's even more true about historical novels where we get a skewed vision of someone centuries away.
I noted, quite specifically, the power of speculative fiction to comment on political, economic and social issues. Lem, Bulgakov, Zamyatin, Bulychev, Shvarts and others expressed dissent through speculative works. Of course, the ironic thing is that they lived in socialist countries with a planned economy that didn't focus publishing on market forces, which led to works with higher literary value being published. The literary establishment of the same system that repressed them in many cases promoted them actively. Sure, propaganda was also published (mostly crap), but the propaganda was also usually turned in as makulatura for recycling.
This is of course true but it doesn't mean that the quality SF cannot be written in free market. It's just harder to find because there is much more books generally. But I find nothing wrong in diversity.
In short, I expressed my opinion and I stand by it. The site may have a sci-fi/fantasy focus, but that doesn't mean that we should be reading Goodkind's Sword of Truth series (just because it's fantasy) instead of The Brothers Karamazov or a similar work of recognised literary merit (just because it's not).
And on this I agree with you wholeheartedly. The world will certainly be a better place with less Goodkind.
Evolution, just like gravity, works even if you don't believe in it.
Stupidity doesn't hurt but it kills.
Stupidity doesn't hurt but it kills.
In Support of Other Fiction
01/12/2009 09:06:14 PM
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01/12/2009 09:22:56 PM
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Re:
01/12/2009 09:28:04 PM
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you shouldn't feel the need to defend a non SF/F suggestion, just don't
03/12/2009 03:34:28 PM
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Well, let me offer a diverging view on the topic of speculative fiction.
01/12/2009 09:46:35 PM
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I would counter that the stripping away removes a level of reality.
01/12/2009 10:05:28 PM
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That's a Slippery Slope Because You Could Argue On the Same Basis That All Fiction Does That.
01/12/2009 11:34:34 PM
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I don't see the slippery slope, but rather, a confirmation of my original point.
02/12/2009 01:41:24 AM
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perhaps some university will do a study
03/12/2009 03:55:54 PM
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I'd like to see it
03/12/2009 09:15:12 PM
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I Think I'll Post a Thread on This.
03/12/2009 06:47:05 PM
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I'd like to see it.
03/12/2009 09:23:07 PM
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Regarding depth in Jordan
03/12/2009 09:31:19 PM
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I was thinking about that too
03/12/2009 10:05:40 PM
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Re: I was thinking about that too
03/12/2009 10:09:26 PM
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Destroying the Wheel is meaningless.
03/12/2009 10:18:08 PM
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Re: Destroying the Wheel is meaningless.
03/12/2009 10:30:15 PM
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It would. Destroying the Wheel would likely make him a Buddhist.
03/12/2009 10:51:17 PM
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I Totally Missed That.
04/12/2009 10:45:56 PM
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Re: I Totally Missed That.
04/12/2009 10:47:59 PM
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I Don't Believe It Cursory, But Comparative.
04/12/2009 11:29:36 PM
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Re: Well, let me offer a diverging view on the topic of speculative fiction.
02/12/2009 12:28:30 AM
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I find Michel Houellebecq to be one of the most intriguing writers of our time
01/12/2009 11:14:05 PM
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wait! there's somebody "dirtier" than Piers Anthony or Philip Jose Farmer???
03/12/2009 04:00:28 PM
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Nice post.
02/12/2009 12:03:09 AM
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I guess I'll break my silence after almost a month and a half...
02/12/2009 12:23:07 AM
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Popcorn?
02/12/2009 12:31:44 AM
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I'm glad I could drive you from your Carthusian retreat, Larry
02/12/2009 01:58:49 AM
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It won't last for long - have too many things still to deal with in my life
02/12/2009 02:36:15 AM
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That's too bad. I'll have to learn monasterial sign language to continue a dialogue.
02/12/2009 03:49:01 AM
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I concur
02/12/2009 12:27:13 AM
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I like your framing of the issue (and Shannara is the Taco Bell of writing).
02/12/2009 02:03:51 AM
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Am i the only one who reads books for fun?
02/12/2009 12:33:52 AM
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I certainly didn't read The Lost Symbol for ANY cultural, intellectual or edifying reason.
02/12/2009 02:05:45 AM
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Of course not. Personally, I don't touch anything other than mind candy when I'm in school,
02/12/2009 03:29:23 AM
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one of the things that is important to me in books/shows
03/12/2009 05:20:29 PM
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WoT has decent characterization, though a little overwrought. Harrington... not so much.
04/12/2009 04:26:43 AM
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Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is a science fiction/fantasy movie.
02/12/2009 12:54:08 AM
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Reading only speculative literature is limiting and monotonous.
02/12/2009 02:09:42 AM
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I was going to say exactly that about "real" literature: monotonous and limiting.
02/12/2009 01:57:49 PM
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I would not disagree with you if you said that.
02/12/2009 02:27:08 PM
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Most non-speculative fiction is fluff as well though.
03/12/2009 05:38:32 PM
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Which brings us back to my point.
03/12/2009 08:04:24 PM
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I would like to see the study and statistics that produced this answer.
04/12/2009 05:24:02 PM
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Re: I would like to see the study and statistics that produced this answer.
04/12/2009 10:42:33 PM
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Actually, it is a film that does not fit neatly into one category
02/12/2009 11:16:20 AM
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Science Fiction is the most PERTINANT form of fiction in the world today
02/12/2009 12:57:19 AM
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"Pertinent", not "Pertinant". If it weren't in all caps I'd have ignored it this time.
02/12/2009 02:13:36 AM
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SF&F and 'real literature' are not mutually exclusive
02/12/2009 01:19:05 AM
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So why don't we occasionally focus on "real" books that are technically spec fiction?
02/12/2009 01:25:04 AM
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Why must we limit our focus in that way?
02/12/2009 02:20:11 AM
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I don't see it as limiting or forcing.
02/12/2009 03:16:07 AM
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"Elite club" or "elitist clique"?
02/12/2009 03:52:11 AM
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Elite club is how we midwestern rednecks refer to Elitist Clique. *chews on a piece of hay*
02/12/2009 02:52:01 PM
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I was born in the Midwest.
02/12/2009 03:01:36 PM
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I know.
02/12/2009 03:12:05 PM
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...!
02/12/2009 03:17:57 PM
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Admit it. You know what I'm talking about.
02/12/2009 03:29:31 PM
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Re: Admit it. You know what I'm talking about.
02/12/2009 03:31:26 PM
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Huh! I really didn't think of you as being a masochist.
02/12/2009 01:51:55 AM
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Read what you like to read.
02/12/2009 04:18:53 AM
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I'll super size you. Fine. *NM*
02/12/2009 04:32:58 AM
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Oh noes! I'm getting word-fat!
02/12/2009 04:59:05 AM
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I seem to have struck a nerve.
02/12/2009 05:20:27 AM
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Apparently not the nerve you think, though.
02/12/2009 06:42:02 AM
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Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure.
02/12/2009 02:13:10 PM
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Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure.
02/12/2009 09:40:28 PM
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I really did get under your skin
02/12/2009 09:58:18 PM
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Tom as much as you raise some great points, you are being a condescending ass.
03/12/2009 04:26:27 AM
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You're entitled to your opinion. I don't care.
03/12/2009 04:51:18 AM
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I keep replying. It's like a sickness.
03/12/2009 05:15:28 AM
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Hm.
02/12/2009 06:58:56 AM
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Re-read my exact point.
02/12/2009 02:18:20 PM
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No. Some kind of reading is indeed essential.
02/12/2009 02:28:22 PM
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There may have been an assumption about literature due to the reason for the post.
02/12/2009 02:37:47 PM
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Somehow I get the feeling that this post hasn't caused quite as much controversy
02/12/2009 06:53:18 AM
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As I see it...
02/12/2009 11:38:07 AM
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Yep.
02/12/2009 02:18:22 PM
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Re: Yep.
02/12/2009 03:35:38 PM
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Euripides was poorly received, initially.
02/12/2009 03:57:58 PM
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I wasn't looking to generate controversy
02/12/2009 02:19:13 PM
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Well... then I'm going to have to agree with Craig a bit.
02/12/2009 02:32:59 PM
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Well, I was being somewhat denigrating. "Unnecessarily" or not is a matter of debate.
02/12/2009 02:40:29 PM
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Well, it's only "unnecessary" if you don't want people to be turned off of your message immediately. *NM*
02/12/2009 09:42:46 PM
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Judging from the responses, most people weren't turned off immediately.
02/12/2009 09:59:35 PM
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All reading of fiction is a diversion by the very nature of the activity.
02/12/2009 03:43:05 PM
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Diversion from direct action, yes. Diversion from reality, no.
02/12/2009 04:15:48 PM
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I maintain that all acts of reading fiction are a diversion from reality/ the realistic
02/12/2009 05:43:16 PM
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It seems a regressive argument to me.
03/12/2009 01:18:02 AM
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You're playing a game.
03/12/2009 03:40:14 PM
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I fundamentally agree with much of what you're saying, but there is a distinction.
03/12/2009 06:44:02 PM
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Spec fic is perhaps at it's best in autocracies?
02/12/2009 04:10:56 PM
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Bulgakov
02/12/2009 04:25:17 PM
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I've only read the first chapter of M&M.
02/12/2009 04:36:09 PM
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Re: I've only read the first chapter of M&M.
02/12/2009 04:40:16 PM
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Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me.
02/12/2009 05:17:31 PM
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Re: Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me.
02/12/2009 05:40:16 PM
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I suppose.
02/12/2009 06:26:30 PM
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Re: I suppose.
02/12/2009 07:25:26 PM
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This was something I was exploring earlier.
02/12/2009 04:34:41 PM
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Funny thing about the hivemind antagonist.
02/12/2009 05:13:30 PM
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I didn't see the zombies reading speculative fiction
02/12/2009 05:30:26 PM
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Oh, they prefer Clive Cussler.
02/12/2009 06:23:42 PM
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There's an interesting book in Russian that might be translated somewhere.
02/12/2009 10:02:48 PM
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i think it comes more down to quality than genre.
02/12/2009 04:55:20 PM
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I disagree with the ultimate conclusion but agree with many of your points.
02/12/2009 05:43:04 PM
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the illiad is a classic
02/12/2009 06:35:24 PM
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There's only one "L" in Iliad
02/12/2009 08:18:38 PM
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It took me a few minutes to agree
02/12/2009 07:04:59 PM
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Well, I'm glad if you got something out of the post!
02/12/2009 09:13:26 PM
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Many people have mentioned that there's quite a bit of good sff lit out there and you seem to agree.
02/12/2009 07:33:42 PM
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The website is called "Read and Find Out". It doesn't specify what we're supposed to read.
02/12/2009 08:42:19 PM
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Anti the idea ? I see no evidence for this.
02/12/2009 09:50:37 PM
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Heh
02/12/2009 09:56:30 PM
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I have a few objections.
03/12/2009 12:24:43 AM
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where else should we talk about it?
03/12/2009 12:37:26 AM
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There's a difference between having threads about it and focusing the official book club on it.
03/12/2009 12:40:53 AM
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This is the Sci-Fi and Fantasy Board for site optimization purposes.
03/12/2009 01:07:39 AM
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random thoughts stole my subject line
03/12/2009 01:56:07 AM
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I think I could agree with a "comfort food" analogy
03/12/2009 02:12:01 AM
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That's it
03/12/2009 04:02:28 AM
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Question: is it really science fiction without one of the following:
03/12/2009 05:13:21 AM
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technically speaking, fantasy is classed as a sub heading under science fiction. *NM*
03/12/2009 02:51:12 PM
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Yes, it is but actually...
03/12/2009 09:31:44 PM
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But Dan Brown rocks da house!!! *NM*
03/12/2009 02:16:47 AM
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another thing wrong with your argument
03/12/2009 03:30:19 PM
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Absolutely not. And, as I said before, there's only one "L" in Iliad.
03/12/2009 06:53:35 PM
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sorry about my atrocious spelling (including the one on pertinent)
03/12/2009 07:14:59 PM
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is it just me, or is this now the largest post/thread yet on RAFO.com??? 168 replies so far! *NM*
03/12/2009 05:03:25 PM
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Congratulations on the replies count
03/12/2009 09:30:41 PM
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That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree.
03/12/2009 10:50:29 PM
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Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree.
04/12/2009 07:44:56 PM
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But the objective truth of a setting can be measured.
04/12/2009 10:37:10 PM
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But does it make any difference in the objective value of the book?
06/12/2009 09:35:59 AM
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Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree.
04/12/2009 10:25:08 PM
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Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree.
06/12/2009 09:36:11 AM
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I've obviously missed the show here...
04/12/2009 12:14:30 AM
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I'm not sure that's right. This thing just keeps growing.
04/12/2009 12:46:24 AM
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What, your penis?
06/12/2009 02:40:09 AM
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Don't you know it!
06/12/2009 03:28:16 PM
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You talk the talk, that's for sure.
07/12/2009 08:14:41 PM
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Metaphor versus literalism
04/12/2009 05:42:03 PM
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Metaphor divorced from the reality runs risks, however.
04/12/2009 10:25:47 PM
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Honestly, the moral can always be dismissed as inapplicable if you want to dismiss it.
05/12/2009 12:16:39 AM
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While that's true, it's much harder to just dismiss Mockingbird.
05/12/2009 03:57:42 AM
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Then why read fiction at all? It's all a diversion.
05/12/2009 04:16:06 PM
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I think people should read non-fiction, and The Nine Hundred Days is an excellent book.
05/12/2009 04:41:50 PM
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aha. but.
07/12/2009 03:56:48 PM
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