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Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. Ellestra Send a noteboard - 04/12/2009 07:44:56 PM
The call for diversity was essentially based on the fact that many here would be content and happy to discuss, in the book club, ten books, one after the other, that are all derivative crap, just on the basis of the fact that they are sci-fi or fantasy.

As for my point, it was not that something relevant ceases to be science fiction. However, it was that much of what is published as science fiction or fantasy is crap. I pointed out that much of this may have to do with the fact that the market drives the publishing industry. The masses have spoken, and they want more Tolkien clones and new spins on Orson Scott Card. When books that don't target a few set popular markets come out, it's because the publishing company is willing to take a risk based on their perceived strength of the book. The risk is less with a Tolkien clone, so formulaic, well-worn premises get repackaged just like Hollywood blockbusters get repackaged. I therefore disagree with the "90% of everything is crap" quote - a greater proportion of sci-fi and fantasy is crap than other literature.

This is the point where I disagree strongly. I mean I agree that the market is full of clones of anything that's been popular but again that's true for any genre. The mainstream is as prone to fads (especially the ones concerning "style" ) as anything else. Publishing industry thrives on this. That's why so many covers bear the "another [well known author name]". The trick is to find books that won't feel like you wasted your time (and money) afterwards. But that's something that different for each and everyone of us and it changes with time. There was a time when I stopped reading fantasy altogether. Lately I feel like mainstream literature is wasting my time - telling same stories but just in less and less comprehensible style.

As such, the labels "science fiction" and "fantasy" end up, perhaps not defining, but at least indicting the quality of stories written in those genres.

Furthermore, as I wrote in another response, many people will look at the "speculative" nature of a work and say (like my father did to The Lord of the Rings, "That's a pile of shit. Magic, orcs, elves and wizards - it's just too unrealistic for me." The difference between that book and the book on male prostitutes in Thailand you referenced is that the latter exist, and even if the setting is unreal for you, you can correct that by going to Thailand and meeting people who were abused as children and forced into prostitution. If it's historical, you can pull up photos that show the reality of the time period, or go to a museum to see art from that time and place. You can't do that with Tolkien because it never existed.

And you keep insisting in this thread that SF equals space ships, robots and mad scientists. As I said before Thailand, XIV century or Moon are just settings. They say nothing about how true the stories are, how much light they shed on human nature. Even if I went to Thailand and lived there I won't find that person or that life. His tale was told through the mind of a writer and is ultimately unreal. I've read to many times about how writers change truth to fit the story they were telling to believe in 'true stories'. Even if the setting can be visited the world in books in not the one we live in. It's even more true about historical novels where we get a skewed vision of someone centuries away.

I noted, quite specifically, the power of speculative fiction to comment on political, economic and social issues. Lem, Bulgakov, Zamyatin, Bulychev, Shvarts and others expressed dissent through speculative works. Of course, the ironic thing is that they lived in socialist countries with a planned economy that didn't focus publishing on market forces, which led to works with higher literary value being published. The literary establishment of the same system that repressed them in many cases promoted them actively. Sure, propaganda was also published (mostly crap), but the propaganda was also usually turned in as makulatura for recycling.

This is of course true but it doesn't mean that the quality SF cannot be written in free market. It's just harder to find because there is much more books generally. But I find nothing wrong in diversity.

In short, I expressed my opinion and I stand by it. The site may have a sci-fi/fantasy focus, but that doesn't mean that we should be reading Goodkind's Sword of Truth series (just because it's fantasy) instead of The Brothers Karamazov or a similar work of recognised literary merit (just because it's not).

And on this I agree with you wholeheartedly. The world will certainly be a better place with less Goodkind. :D
Evolution, just like gravity, works even if you don't believe in it.

Stupidity doesn't hurt but it kills.
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In Support of Other Fiction - 01/12/2009 09:06:14 PM 2066 Views
- 01/12/2009 09:22:56 PM 1134 Views
Re: - 01/12/2009 09:28:04 PM 1112 Views
Wow...we were just Santified *NM* - 03/12/2009 09:16:21 PM 560 Views
Well, let me offer a diverging view on the topic of speculative fiction. - 01/12/2009 09:46:35 PM 1036 Views
I would counter that the stripping away removes a level of reality. - 01/12/2009 10:05:28 PM 1123 Views
That's a Slippery Slope Because You Could Argue On the Same Basis That All Fiction Does That. - 01/12/2009 11:34:34 PM 1176 Views
I don't see the slippery slope, but rather, a confirmation of my original point. - 02/12/2009 01:41:24 AM 1121 Views
perhaps some university will do a study - 03/12/2009 03:55:54 PM 1079 Views
I'd like to see it - 03/12/2009 09:15:12 PM 1130 Views
I'll get to it once I finish my thesis - 03/12/2009 09:56:29 PM 1068 Views
If it looks like crap and smells like crap... - 03/12/2009 10:04:15 PM 1096 Views
I Think I'll Post a Thread on This. - 03/12/2009 06:47:05 PM 1051 Views
I'd like to see it. - 03/12/2009 09:23:07 PM 1091 Views
Regarding depth in Jordan - 03/12/2009 09:31:19 PM 1099 Views
I was thinking about that too - 03/12/2009 10:05:40 PM 1077 Views
Re: I was thinking about that too - 03/12/2009 10:09:26 PM 1168 Views
Destroying the Wheel is meaningless. - 03/12/2009 10:18:08 PM 1066 Views
Re: Destroying the Wheel is meaningless. - 03/12/2009 10:30:15 PM 1091 Views
I Totally Missed That. - 04/12/2009 10:45:56 PM 1152 Views
Re: I Totally Missed That. - 04/12/2009 10:47:59 PM 1133 Views
I Don't Believe It Cursory, But Comparative. - 04/12/2009 11:29:36 PM 1224 Views
Publication bookend Y2K? - 05/12/2009 10:36:01 AM 1144 Views
They're Thick Bookends. - 05/12/2009 06:12:06 PM 1080 Views
I'll Try to Have It Up Tomorrow Early. - 04/12/2009 11:24:18 PM 1180 Views
I like it. - 01/12/2009 10:28:48 PM 1092 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 01:43:05 AM 1239 Views
I find Michel Houellebecq to be one of the most intriguing writers of our time - 01/12/2009 11:14:05 PM 1185 Views
And, in recent memory, Orwell was a first-rate writer. - 02/12/2009 01:44:29 AM 1176 Views
wait! there's somebody "dirtier" than Piers Anthony or Philip Jose Farmer??? - 03/12/2009 04:00:28 PM 1137 Views
PJF is dirty? - 04/12/2009 12:16:12 AM 1023 Views
Nice post. - 02/12/2009 12:03:09 AM 1192 Views
Perhaps you're right. - 02/12/2009 01:47:10 AM 1061 Views
In its entirety? No. - 02/12/2009 02:00:10 PM 1103 Views
I agree! - 02/12/2009 12:17:10 AM 1305 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 01:50:22 AM 1010 Views
I guess I'll break my silence after almost a month and a half... - 02/12/2009 12:23:07 AM 1202 Views
Popcorn? - 02/12/2009 12:31:44 AM 1127 Views
Yes - 02/12/2009 12:39:10 AM 1170 Views
Lovecraft? - 02/12/2009 12:51:55 AM 1161 Views
Re-read what I said - 02/12/2009 12:55:08 AM 1229 Views
aahh - 02/12/2009 09:26:40 AM 1093 Views
Larry, please tell me you weren't... - 03/12/2009 04:33:32 PM 958 Views
I concur - 02/12/2009 12:27:13 AM 1083 Views
I like your framing of the issue (and Shannara is the Taco Bell of writing). - 02/12/2009 02:03:51 AM 1128 Views
Thank you - 02/12/2009 09:30:42 AM 1078 Views
more like the mom&pop greasy-spoon diner of writing *NM* - 03/12/2009 05:00:21 PM 519 Views
I'm going to put this in my sig, if you don't mind. - 02/12/2009 03:31:13 AM 1152 Views
hehehe - 02/12/2009 09:31:28 AM 1036 Views
Am i the only one who reads books for fun? - 02/12/2009 12:33:52 AM 1181 Views
There isn't necessarily a contradiction - 02/12/2009 12:38:43 AM 1113 Views
I certainly didn't read The Lost Symbol for ANY cultural, intellectual or edifying reason. - 02/12/2009 02:05:45 AM 1085 Views
it didn't come across that way - 03/12/2009 05:15:36 PM 1108 Views
Of course not. Personally, I don't touch anything other than mind candy when I'm in school, - 02/12/2009 03:29:23 AM 1054 Views
one of the things that is important to me in books/shows - 03/12/2009 05:20:29 PM 986 Views
We agree! - 03/12/2009 08:03:00 PM 1084 Views
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is a science fiction/fantasy movie. - 02/12/2009 12:54:08 AM 1145 Views
i was gonna point that out. thnks. *NM* - 02/12/2009 01:13:47 AM 469 Views
Reading only speculative literature is limiting and monotonous. - 02/12/2009 02:09:42 AM 1179 Views
I was going to say exactly that about "real" literature: monotonous and limiting. - 02/12/2009 01:57:49 PM 1080 Views
I think his point was that only SF/F wasn't good food. - 02/12/2009 02:15:29 PM 1052 Views
I would not disagree with you if you said that. - 02/12/2009 02:27:08 PM 1010 Views
Most non-speculative fiction is fluff as well though. - 03/12/2009 05:38:32 PM 1002 Views
hear hear!! I agree totally wert-man - 03/12/2009 07:20:09 PM 1071 Views
Which brings us back to my point. - 03/12/2009 08:04:24 PM 1124 Views
Actually, it is a film that does not fit neatly into one category - 02/12/2009 11:16:20 AM 1128 Views
Science Fiction is the most PERTINANT form of fiction in the world today - 02/12/2009 12:57:19 AM 1080 Views
don't get me wrong - 02/12/2009 01:28:08 AM 1109 Views
SF&F and 'real literature' are not mutually exclusive - 02/12/2009 01:19:05 AM 1072 Views
No, they are not - 02/12/2009 02:18:53 AM 1087 Views
This line is a load of bull - 03/12/2009 02:39:53 PM 1187 Views
So why don't we occasionally focus on "real" books that are technically spec fiction? - 02/12/2009 01:25:04 AM 1052 Views
Why must we limit our focus in that way? - 02/12/2009 02:20:11 AM 1040 Views
I don't see it as limiting or forcing. - 02/12/2009 03:16:07 AM 1062 Views
"Elite club" or "elitist clique"? - 02/12/2009 03:52:11 AM 1042 Views
Either way, I want in. *NM* - 02/12/2009 11:33:52 AM 563 Views
Elite club is how we midwestern rednecks refer to Elitist Clique. *chews on a piece of hay* - 02/12/2009 02:52:01 PM 1199 Views
I was born in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:01:36 PM 1109 Views
I know. - 02/12/2009 03:12:05 PM 1040 Views
Green Acres in reverse, eh? - 02/12/2009 03:38:09 PM 1077 Views
lmao - 02/12/2009 06:21:17 PM 1221 Views
*piledrivers you* - 02/12/2009 06:28:02 PM 1009 Views
...! - 02/12/2009 03:17:57 PM 1055 Views
Admit it. You know what I'm talking about. - 02/12/2009 03:29:31 PM 1066 Views
Re: Admit it. You know what I'm talking about. - 02/12/2009 03:31:26 PM 1015 Views
Vermont isn't in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:39:36 PM 1027 Views
Re: Vermont isn't in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:42:47 PM 1057 Views
Huh! I really didn't think of you as being a masochist. - 02/12/2009 01:51:55 AM 1024 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 02:21:00 AM 953 Views
Shitstorm! - 02/12/2009 03:06:59 AM 1007 Views
Heh heh heh. - 02/12/2009 03:45:40 AM 1056 Views
Read what you like to read. - 02/12/2009 04:18:53 AM 1139 Views
I'll super size you. Fine. *NM* - 02/12/2009 04:32:58 AM 530 Views
Oh noes! I'm getting word-fat! - 02/12/2009 04:59:05 AM 1058 Views
I seem to have struck a nerve. - 02/12/2009 05:20:27 AM 1093 Views
Apparently not the nerve you think, though. - 02/12/2009 06:42:02 AM 1163 Views
Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 02:13:10 PM 1077 Views
Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 03:26:59 PM 1087 Views
Agreed. - 02/12/2009 03:30:50 PM 1004 Views
Re: Agreed. - 02/12/2009 03:32:06 PM 1000 Views
Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 09:40:28 PM 1128 Views
I really did get under your skin - 02/12/2009 09:58:18 PM 1000 Views
- 02/12/2009 10:06:46 PM 996 Views
Tom as much as you raise some great points, you are being a condescending ass. - 03/12/2009 04:26:27 AM 1055 Views
You're entitled to your opinion. I don't care. - 03/12/2009 04:51:18 AM 1036 Views
I keep replying. It's like a sickness. - 03/12/2009 05:15:28 AM 1054 Views
Your subject line reinforces my opinion. - 03/12/2009 05:31:50 AM 970 Views
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room. *NM* - 03/12/2009 07:21:05 AM 514 Views
LOL! - 04/12/2009 12:21:36 AM 1013 Views
See, you just proved my point. - 04/12/2009 12:39:59 AM 1058 Views
Hm. - 02/12/2009 06:58:56 AM 1658 Views
Re-read my exact point. - 02/12/2009 02:18:20 PM 1013 Views
No. Some kind of reading is indeed essential. - 02/12/2009 02:28:22 PM 1172 Views
Somehow I get the feeling that this post hasn't caused quite as much controversy - 02/12/2009 06:53:18 AM 1163 Views
As I see it... - 02/12/2009 11:38:07 AM 1044 Views
Yep. - 02/12/2009 02:18:22 PM 1207 Views
Re: Yep. - 02/12/2009 03:35:38 PM 1070 Views
Euripides was poorly received, initially. - 02/12/2009 03:57:58 PM 975 Views
Re: Euripides was poorly received, initially. - 02/12/2009 04:00:35 PM 1005 Views
I know. - 02/12/2009 04:18:16 PM 1067 Views
Re: I know. - 02/12/2009 04:23:14 PM 1008 Views
That is why he's so good, in my opinion. - 02/12/2009 06:15:45 PM 1166 Views
All reading of fiction is a diversion by the very nature of the activity. - 02/12/2009 03:43:05 PM 1069 Views
Diversion from direct action, yes. Diversion from reality, no. - 02/12/2009 04:15:48 PM 1026 Views
I maintain that all acts of reading fiction are a diversion from reality/ the realistic - 02/12/2009 05:43:16 PM 1044 Views
It seems a regressive argument to me. - 03/12/2009 01:18:02 AM 991 Views
You're playing a game. - 03/12/2009 03:40:14 PM 1071 Views
I like your response. *NM* - 03/12/2009 05:37:09 PM 484 Views
I fundamentally agree with much of what you're saying, but there is a distinction. - 03/12/2009 06:44:02 PM 1059 Views
Oh I concur on that distinction. - 04/12/2009 09:06:34 PM 1108 Views
Spec fic is perhaps at it's best in autocracies? - 02/12/2009 04:10:56 PM 991 Views
Bulgakov - 02/12/2009 04:25:17 PM 1042 Views
I've only read the first chapter of M&M. - 02/12/2009 04:36:09 PM 1016 Views
Re: I've only read the first chapter of M&M. - 02/12/2009 04:40:16 PM 971 Views
Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me. - 02/12/2009 05:17:31 PM 1000 Views
Re: Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me. - 02/12/2009 05:40:16 PM 1048 Views
I suppose. - 02/12/2009 06:26:30 PM 1053 Views
Re: I suppose. - 02/12/2009 07:25:26 PM 1056 Views
Well, I don't hold escapism in such low esteem *NM* - 02/12/2009 07:56:13 PM 522 Views
That is what I mean - 02/12/2009 08:36:02 PM 980 Views
This was something I was exploring earlier. - 02/12/2009 04:34:41 PM 1092 Views
Funny thing about the hivemind antagonist. - 02/12/2009 05:13:30 PM 1057 Views
I didn't see the zombies reading speculative fiction - 02/12/2009 05:30:26 PM 1132 Views
Oh, they prefer Clive Cussler. - 02/12/2009 06:23:42 PM 1103 Views
i think it comes more down to quality than genre. - 02/12/2009 04:55:20 PM 1071 Views
I disagree with the ultimate conclusion but agree with many of your points. - 02/12/2009 05:43:04 PM 1044 Views
the illiad is a classic - 02/12/2009 06:35:24 PM 1066 Views
There's only one "L" in Iliad - 02/12/2009 08:18:38 PM 1030 Views
Is there a safe answer to that question? *NM* - 02/12/2009 10:33:21 PM 547 Views
Maybe not. *NM* - 03/12/2009 12:59:09 AM 514 Views
It took me a few minutes to agree - 02/12/2009 07:04:59 PM 1016 Views
Well, I'm glad if you got something out of the post! - 02/12/2009 09:13:26 PM 1030 Views
Re: Well, I'm glad if you got something out of the post! - 02/12/2009 09:20:49 PM 1007 Views
I don't know. I've only read about 30 pages so far. *NM* - 02/12/2009 10:05:54 PM 544 Views
Many people have mentioned that there's quite a bit of good sff lit out there and you seem to agree. - 02/12/2009 07:33:42 PM 1140 Views
Hmmm - 02/12/2009 08:40:53 PM 1045 Views
Re: Hmmm - 02/12/2009 10:48:02 PM 1060 Views
The website is called "Read and Find Out". It doesn't specify what we're supposed to read. - 02/12/2009 08:42:19 PM 1111 Views
Anti the idea ? I see no evidence for this. - 02/12/2009 09:50:37 PM 1065 Views
Heh - 02/12/2009 09:56:30 PM 1068 Views
What do you mean ? Almost all the repliers agree with Tom - 03/12/2009 11:01:08 AM 1036 Views
Re: What do you mean ? Almost all the repliers agree with Tom - 03/12/2009 11:10:35 AM 1055 Views
I see. You don't read announcements. - 03/12/2009 11:12:04 AM 1021 Views
No, but it does bill itself as science fiction/fantasy. - 02/12/2009 10:51:41 PM 1151 Views
Yes. - 03/12/2009 12:01:30 AM 1147 Views
I think Rebekah and Camilla put it well. - 02/12/2009 10:05:24 PM 1119 Views
I think they make good points, as I said above. - 02/12/2009 10:56:55 PM 1012 Views
I agree with in principle - 02/12/2009 11:22:19 PM 999 Views
Certainly. People are free to skip any discussion. - 03/12/2009 01:01:40 AM 1114 Views
I have a few objections. - 03/12/2009 12:24:43 AM 1081 Views
where else should we talk about it? - 03/12/2009 12:37:26 AM 1039 Views
random thoughts stole my subject line - 03/12/2009 01:56:07 AM 1084 Views
I think I could agree with a "comfort food" analogy - 03/12/2009 02:12:01 AM 1095 Views
Re: I think I could agree with a "comfort food" analogy - 03/12/2009 02:38:17 AM 1147 Views
That's it - 03/12/2009 04:02:28 AM 1152 Views
Question: is it really science fiction without one of the following: - 03/12/2009 05:13:21 AM 1090 Views
Certainly - 03/12/2009 06:13:38 AM 1137 Views
technically speaking, fantasy is classed as a sub heading under science fiction. *NM* - 03/12/2009 02:51:12 PM 445 Views
According to whom? *NM* - 03/12/2009 03:55:45 PM 572 Views
Yeah. What she asked! *NM* - 03/12/2009 09:23:55 PM 534 Views
Yes, it is but actually... - 03/12/2009 09:31:44 PM 1068 Views
Eternal Sunshine doesn't have a mad scientist. - 03/12/2009 10:09:01 PM 992 Views
Really? - 04/12/2009 07:01:42 PM 1048 Views
But Dan Brown rocks da house!!! *NM* - 03/12/2009 02:16:47 AM 542 Views
*pumps fist* Give it up for Dan Brown! *NM* - 03/12/2009 03:58:23 AM 536 Views
That's Dan "booyah" Brown!!! Booyah!!! *NM* - 04/12/2009 02:00:56 AM 544 Views
another thing wrong with your argument - 03/12/2009 03:30:19 PM 1048 Views
Absolutely not. And, as I said before, there's only one "L" in Iliad. - 03/12/2009 06:53:35 PM 874 Views
sorry about my atrocious spelling (including the one on pertinent) - 03/12/2009 07:14:59 PM 1170 Views
No problem. On the substantive points: - 03/12/2009 08:00:33 PM 1105 Views
more importantly, which I think it being lost in all this, - 03/12/2009 08:05:27 PM 1106 Views
I'm not reading the Iliad again, once was enough - 04/12/2009 12:19:07 PM 1034 Views
Congratulations on the replies count - 03/12/2009 09:30:41 PM 1168 Views
That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 03/12/2009 10:50:29 PM 1120 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 04/12/2009 07:44:56 PM 1105 Views
But the objective truth of a setting can be measured. - 04/12/2009 10:37:10 PM 1030 Views
But does it make any difference in the objective value of the book? - 06/12/2009 09:35:59 AM 1192 Views
YES. - 06/12/2009 03:34:17 PM 1009 Views
NO - 07/12/2009 08:40:33 PM 1094 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 04/12/2009 10:25:08 PM 1042 Views
Yes, it is worse with movies. Much worse, in fact. - 04/12/2009 10:33:18 PM 1091 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 06/12/2009 09:36:11 AM 1042 Views
Maybe we're different, but I don't care for FX - 06/12/2009 01:37:53 PM 988 Views
This is not about the personal taste - 07/12/2009 08:50:34 PM 1091 Views
I've obviously missed the show here... - 04/12/2009 12:14:30 AM 1013 Views
I'm not sure that's right. This thing just keeps growing. - 04/12/2009 12:46:24 AM 1130 Views
What, your penis? - 06/12/2009 02:40:09 AM 1014 Views
Don't you know it! - 06/12/2009 03:28:16 PM 929 Views
You talk the talk, that's for sure. - 07/12/2009 08:14:41 PM 1067 Views
Hate to break it to you... - 07/12/2009 09:54:24 PM 1120 Views
I thought you were gonna tell me... - 08/12/2009 03:07:54 PM 1180 Views
Metaphor versus literalism - 04/12/2009 05:42:03 PM 1083 Views
aha. but. - 07/12/2009 03:56:48 PM 1218 Views
Quoting Nietzsche is really hitting below the belt. - 07/12/2009 09:12:34 PM 1160 Views
It is good I was only paraphrasing, then - 08/12/2009 10:44:14 AM 1054 Views

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