Diversity in reading is not a thing any of us here probably disagrees with. I think we should have a discussion about any book more then five people agree to talk about. The fact that anyone would be against discussing a book is bizzare to me (even if it was Goodkind or Twilight) if there are people interested in it then it should go on.
The problem with your post is something else. It's the assumptions you make to prove your point. Science Fiction (and Fantasy) is not a label that defines the quality of stories that are told. It's the definition of setting they take place in. It's a setting that is neither better or worse the planet Earth now (contemporary literature) or in the past (historical novels) and has nothing to do with quality and resonance of stories told. Telling meaningful stories about human experience is not something a setting has much to do with. Of course much of the works that are labeled SF or Fantasy are about action, adventure and cool ideas. They are pleasure reading. But the same can be told about the stories taking place in present or past. As Theodore Strugeon said "90% of everything is crap". This does not allows you to define SF as only action story with a gadgets and all that goes beyond it as not SF.
This is what I think irritates most people about your post is your insistence that if anything is more then just dumb entertainment it stops being Science Fiction. After all the discussions on this subject in the SF community as well as this board and all the crap mainstream critics and authors like Margaret Atwood caught for it I'm surprised you chose this argument. I'm not surprised by the reaction to it that so many here have. I can get why people who know nothing of SF have it. This is the reason we can't have nice things. This is especially grating, like so many people before me noticed, with the example you yourself used. Stanis?aw Lem once defined science fiction work as something that will be irrevocably changed if the SF elements were removed. The Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is a science fiction movie. It's plot doesn't make sense without the SF element. BTW by this definition Star Wars doesn't qualify for SF (could be as well told with cowboys or samurais).
Science Fiction can be powerful tool to show both psychological and sociological truth about human existence. I happen to come from a country where it was used as a one of main venues to describe and criticize oppressive system we lived in as it was considered unimportant and therefore was not censored (as much). This was not a diversion but a commentary on reality. Possible thanks to a people who though it's SF and therefore crap. I tend to find more true reflection of human nature in Discworld books then in most winners of Nike awards (most prominent Polish literary award which BTW recently went to Jacek Dukaj for his historical fantasy book Lód (Ice)). I also find many SF books more relevant to my experience as a scientist dealing with the rapidly changing technology then a book that tells a story about the hard life of male prostitutes in Thailand even if it was based on real story (the example is made up to avoid the discussion on the literary merit of the example - see I learned from your example ). The themes of using and misusing technology and it's implications on society is something that is very relevant to my life. And nothing does it as well as SF does.
And last but not least is that the way you present your point makes one feel that you consider your point of view on what is worthy everyones attention more valid then others. And the assumption that all we all read is SF/F and “diversions”. This is what we talk about here but that doesn't mean it's all we read. I for example tend to feel more need to discuss SF and Fantasy books/tv shows/movies I liked then those of other genres. It doesn't mean I don't read/ watch anything else. This place spawned of a MB dedicated to a fantasy series. This means the people who come here are a group with specific interests. People interested mostly in discussing fantasy. Less in SF. Even less in something else. I often wish there was more discussion on SF and less fantasy but that doesn't mean I feel the need to enforce my views on others. If they don't want to have a Book Club on what you like it's no reason to insinuate that all they like to read is worthless, meaningless crap. Nothing stops you from starting your own thread to discuss a book you want to discuss. If enough people is interested to talk about it with you I'm sure the Book Club post can be made to accommodate you.
The problem with your post is something else. It's the assumptions you make to prove your point. Science Fiction (and Fantasy) is not a label that defines the quality of stories that are told. It's the definition of setting they take place in. It's a setting that is neither better or worse the planet Earth now (contemporary literature) or in the past (historical novels) and has nothing to do with quality and resonance of stories told. Telling meaningful stories about human experience is not something a setting has much to do with. Of course much of the works that are labeled SF or Fantasy are about action, adventure and cool ideas. They are pleasure reading. But the same can be told about the stories taking place in present or past. As Theodore Strugeon said "90% of everything is crap". This does not allows you to define SF as only action story with a gadgets and all that goes beyond it as not SF.
This is what I think irritates most people about your post is your insistence that if anything is more then just dumb entertainment it stops being Science Fiction. After all the discussions on this subject in the SF community as well as this board and all the crap mainstream critics and authors like Margaret Atwood caught for it I'm surprised you chose this argument. I'm not surprised by the reaction to it that so many here have. I can get why people who know nothing of SF have it. This is the reason we can't have nice things. This is especially grating, like so many people before me noticed, with the example you yourself used. Stanis?aw Lem once defined science fiction work as something that will be irrevocably changed if the SF elements were removed. The Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is a science fiction movie. It's plot doesn't make sense without the SF element. BTW by this definition Star Wars doesn't qualify for SF (could be as well told with cowboys or samurais).
Science Fiction can be powerful tool to show both psychological and sociological truth about human existence. I happen to come from a country where it was used as a one of main venues to describe and criticize oppressive system we lived in as it was considered unimportant and therefore was not censored (as much). This was not a diversion but a commentary on reality. Possible thanks to a people who though it's SF and therefore crap. I tend to find more true reflection of human nature in Discworld books then in most winners of Nike awards (most prominent Polish literary award which BTW recently went to Jacek Dukaj for his historical fantasy book Lód (Ice)). I also find many SF books more relevant to my experience as a scientist dealing with the rapidly changing technology then a book that tells a story about the hard life of male prostitutes in Thailand even if it was based on real story (the example is made up to avoid the discussion on the literary merit of the example - see I learned from your example ). The themes of using and misusing technology and it's implications on society is something that is very relevant to my life. And nothing does it as well as SF does.
And last but not least is that the way you present your point makes one feel that you consider your point of view on what is worthy everyones attention more valid then others. And the assumption that all we all read is SF/F and “diversions”. This is what we talk about here but that doesn't mean it's all we read. I for example tend to feel more need to discuss SF and Fantasy books/tv shows/movies I liked then those of other genres. It doesn't mean I don't read/ watch anything else. This place spawned of a MB dedicated to a fantasy series. This means the people who come here are a group with specific interests. People interested mostly in discussing fantasy. Less in SF. Even less in something else. I often wish there was more discussion on SF and less fantasy but that doesn't mean I feel the need to enforce my views on others. If they don't want to have a Book Club on what you like it's no reason to insinuate that all they like to read is worthless, meaningless crap. Nothing stops you from starting your own thread to discuss a book you want to discuss. If enough people is interested to talk about it with you I'm sure the Book Club post can be made to accommodate you.
Evolution, just like gravity, works even if you don't believe in it.
Stupidity doesn't hurt but it kills.
Stupidity doesn't hurt but it kills.
In Support of Other Fiction
01/12/2009 09:06:14 PM
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01/12/2009 09:22:56 PM
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Re:
01/12/2009 09:28:04 PM
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you shouldn't feel the need to defend a non SF/F suggestion, just don't
03/12/2009 03:34:28 PM
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Well, let me offer a diverging view on the topic of speculative fiction.
01/12/2009 09:46:35 PM
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I would counter that the stripping away removes a level of reality.
01/12/2009 10:05:28 PM
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That's a Slippery Slope Because You Could Argue On the Same Basis That All Fiction Does That.
01/12/2009 11:34:34 PM
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I don't see the slippery slope, but rather, a confirmation of my original point.
02/12/2009 01:41:24 AM
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perhaps some university will do a study
03/12/2009 03:55:54 PM
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I'd like to see it
03/12/2009 09:15:12 PM
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I Think I'll Post a Thread on This.
03/12/2009 06:47:05 PM
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I'd like to see it.
03/12/2009 09:23:07 PM
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Regarding depth in Jordan
03/12/2009 09:31:19 PM
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I was thinking about that too
03/12/2009 10:05:40 PM
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Re: I was thinking about that too
03/12/2009 10:09:26 PM
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Destroying the Wheel is meaningless.
03/12/2009 10:18:08 PM
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Re: Destroying the Wheel is meaningless.
03/12/2009 10:30:15 PM
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It would. Destroying the Wheel would likely make him a Buddhist.
03/12/2009 10:51:17 PM
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I Totally Missed That.
04/12/2009 10:45:56 PM
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Re: I Totally Missed That.
04/12/2009 10:47:59 PM
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I Don't Believe It Cursory, But Comparative.
04/12/2009 11:29:36 PM
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Re: Well, let me offer a diverging view on the topic of speculative fiction.
02/12/2009 12:28:30 AM
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I find Michel Houellebecq to be one of the most intriguing writers of our time
01/12/2009 11:14:05 PM
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wait! there's somebody "dirtier" than Piers Anthony or Philip Jose Farmer???
03/12/2009 04:00:28 PM
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Nice post.
02/12/2009 12:03:09 AM
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I guess I'll break my silence after almost a month and a half...
02/12/2009 12:23:07 AM
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Popcorn?
02/12/2009 12:31:44 AM
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I'm glad I could drive you from your Carthusian retreat, Larry
02/12/2009 01:58:49 AM
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It won't last for long - have too many things still to deal with in my life
02/12/2009 02:36:15 AM
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That's too bad. I'll have to learn monasterial sign language to continue a dialogue.
02/12/2009 03:49:01 AM
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I concur
02/12/2009 12:27:13 AM
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I like your framing of the issue (and Shannara is the Taco Bell of writing).
02/12/2009 02:03:51 AM
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Am i the only one who reads books for fun?
02/12/2009 12:33:52 AM
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I certainly didn't read The Lost Symbol for ANY cultural, intellectual or edifying reason.
02/12/2009 02:05:45 AM
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Of course not. Personally, I don't touch anything other than mind candy when I'm in school,
02/12/2009 03:29:23 AM
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one of the things that is important to me in books/shows
03/12/2009 05:20:29 PM
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WoT has decent characterization, though a little overwrought. Harrington... not so much.
04/12/2009 04:26:43 AM
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Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is a science fiction/fantasy movie.
02/12/2009 12:54:08 AM
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Reading only speculative literature is limiting and monotonous.
02/12/2009 02:09:42 AM
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I was going to say exactly that about "real" literature: monotonous and limiting.
02/12/2009 01:57:49 PM
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I would not disagree with you if you said that.
02/12/2009 02:27:08 PM
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Most non-speculative fiction is fluff as well though.
03/12/2009 05:38:32 PM
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Which brings us back to my point.
03/12/2009 08:04:24 PM
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I would like to see the study and statistics that produced this answer.
04/12/2009 05:24:02 PM
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Re: I would like to see the study and statistics that produced this answer.
04/12/2009 10:42:33 PM
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Actually, it is a film that does not fit neatly into one category
02/12/2009 11:16:20 AM
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Science Fiction is the most PERTINANT form of fiction in the world today
02/12/2009 12:57:19 AM
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"Pertinent", not "Pertinant". If it weren't in all caps I'd have ignored it this time.
02/12/2009 02:13:36 AM
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SF&F and 'real literature' are not mutually exclusive
02/12/2009 01:19:05 AM
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So why don't we occasionally focus on "real" books that are technically spec fiction?
02/12/2009 01:25:04 AM
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Why must we limit our focus in that way?
02/12/2009 02:20:11 AM
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I don't see it as limiting or forcing.
02/12/2009 03:16:07 AM
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"Elite club" or "elitist clique"?
02/12/2009 03:52:11 AM
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Elite club is how we midwestern rednecks refer to Elitist Clique. *chews on a piece of hay*
02/12/2009 02:52:01 PM
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I was born in the Midwest.
02/12/2009 03:01:36 PM
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I know.
02/12/2009 03:12:05 PM
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...!
02/12/2009 03:17:57 PM
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Admit it. You know what I'm talking about.
02/12/2009 03:29:31 PM
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Re: Admit it. You know what I'm talking about.
02/12/2009 03:31:26 PM
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Huh! I really didn't think of you as being a masochist.
02/12/2009 01:51:55 AM
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Read what you like to read.
02/12/2009 04:18:53 AM
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I'll super size you. Fine. *NM*
02/12/2009 04:32:58 AM
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Oh noes! I'm getting word-fat!
02/12/2009 04:59:05 AM
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I seem to have struck a nerve.
02/12/2009 05:20:27 AM
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Apparently not the nerve you think, though.
02/12/2009 06:42:02 AM
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Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure.
02/12/2009 02:13:10 PM
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Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure.
02/12/2009 09:40:28 PM
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I really did get under your skin
02/12/2009 09:58:18 PM
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Tom as much as you raise some great points, you are being a condescending ass.
03/12/2009 04:26:27 AM
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You're entitled to your opinion. I don't care.
03/12/2009 04:51:18 AM
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I keep replying. It's like a sickness.
03/12/2009 05:15:28 AM
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Hm.
02/12/2009 06:58:56 AM
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Re-read my exact point.
02/12/2009 02:18:20 PM
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No. Some kind of reading is indeed essential.
02/12/2009 02:28:22 PM
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There may have been an assumption about literature due to the reason for the post.
02/12/2009 02:37:47 PM
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Somehow I get the feeling that this post hasn't caused quite as much controversy
02/12/2009 06:53:18 AM
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As I see it...
02/12/2009 11:38:07 AM
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Yep.
02/12/2009 02:18:22 PM
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Re: Yep.
02/12/2009 03:35:38 PM
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Euripides was poorly received, initially.
02/12/2009 03:57:58 PM
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I wasn't looking to generate controversy
02/12/2009 02:19:13 PM
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Well... then I'm going to have to agree with Craig a bit.
02/12/2009 02:32:59 PM
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Well, I was being somewhat denigrating. "Unnecessarily" or not is a matter of debate.
02/12/2009 02:40:29 PM
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Well, it's only "unnecessary" if you don't want people to be turned off of your message immediately. *NM*
02/12/2009 09:42:46 PM
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Judging from the responses, most people weren't turned off immediately.
02/12/2009 09:59:35 PM
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All reading of fiction is a diversion by the very nature of the activity.
02/12/2009 03:43:05 PM
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Diversion from direct action, yes. Diversion from reality, no.
02/12/2009 04:15:48 PM
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I maintain that all acts of reading fiction are a diversion from reality/ the realistic
02/12/2009 05:43:16 PM
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It seems a regressive argument to me.
03/12/2009 01:18:02 AM
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You're playing a game.
03/12/2009 03:40:14 PM
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I fundamentally agree with much of what you're saying, but there is a distinction.
03/12/2009 06:44:02 PM
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Spec fic is perhaps at it's best in autocracies?
02/12/2009 04:10:56 PM
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Bulgakov
02/12/2009 04:25:17 PM
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I've only read the first chapter of M&M.
02/12/2009 04:36:09 PM
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Re: I've only read the first chapter of M&M.
02/12/2009 04:40:16 PM
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Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me.
02/12/2009 05:17:31 PM
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Re: Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me.
02/12/2009 05:40:16 PM
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I suppose.
02/12/2009 06:26:30 PM
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Re: I suppose.
02/12/2009 07:25:26 PM
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This was something I was exploring earlier.
02/12/2009 04:34:41 PM
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Funny thing about the hivemind antagonist.
02/12/2009 05:13:30 PM
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I didn't see the zombies reading speculative fiction
02/12/2009 05:30:26 PM
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Oh, they prefer Clive Cussler.
02/12/2009 06:23:42 PM
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There's an interesting book in Russian that might be translated somewhere.
02/12/2009 10:02:48 PM
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i think it comes more down to quality than genre.
02/12/2009 04:55:20 PM
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I disagree with the ultimate conclusion but agree with many of your points.
02/12/2009 05:43:04 PM
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the illiad is a classic
02/12/2009 06:35:24 PM
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There's only one "L" in Iliad
02/12/2009 08:18:38 PM
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It took me a few minutes to agree
02/12/2009 07:04:59 PM
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Well, I'm glad if you got something out of the post!
02/12/2009 09:13:26 PM
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Many people have mentioned that there's quite a bit of good sff lit out there and you seem to agree.
02/12/2009 07:33:42 PM
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The website is called "Read and Find Out". It doesn't specify what we're supposed to read.
02/12/2009 08:42:19 PM
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Anti the idea ? I see no evidence for this.
02/12/2009 09:50:37 PM
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Heh
02/12/2009 09:56:30 PM
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I have a few objections.
03/12/2009 12:24:43 AM
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where else should we talk about it?
03/12/2009 12:37:26 AM
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There's a difference between having threads about it and focusing the official book club on it.
03/12/2009 12:40:53 AM
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This is the Sci-Fi and Fantasy Board for site optimization purposes.
03/12/2009 01:07:39 AM
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random thoughts stole my subject line
03/12/2009 01:56:07 AM
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I think I could agree with a "comfort food" analogy
03/12/2009 02:12:01 AM
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That's it
03/12/2009 04:02:28 AM
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Question: is it really science fiction without one of the following:
03/12/2009 05:13:21 AM
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technically speaking, fantasy is classed as a sub heading under science fiction. *NM*
03/12/2009 02:51:12 PM
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Yes, it is but actually...
03/12/2009 09:31:44 PM
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But Dan Brown rocks da house!!! *NM*
03/12/2009 02:16:47 AM
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another thing wrong with your argument
03/12/2009 03:30:19 PM
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Absolutely not. And, as I said before, there's only one "L" in Iliad.
03/12/2009 06:53:35 PM
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sorry about my atrocious spelling (including the one on pertinent)
03/12/2009 07:14:59 PM
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is it just me, or is this now the largest post/thread yet on RAFO.com??? 168 replies so far! *NM*
03/12/2009 05:03:25 PM
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Congratulations on the replies count
03/12/2009 09:30:41 PM
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That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree.
03/12/2009 10:50:29 PM
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Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree.
04/12/2009 07:44:56 PM
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But the objective truth of a setting can be measured.
04/12/2009 10:37:10 PM
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But does it make any difference in the objective value of the book?
06/12/2009 09:35:59 AM
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Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree.
04/12/2009 10:25:08 PM
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Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree.
06/12/2009 09:36:11 AM
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I've obviously missed the show here...
04/12/2009 12:14:30 AM
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I'm not sure that's right. This thing just keeps growing.
04/12/2009 12:46:24 AM
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What, your penis?
06/12/2009 02:40:09 AM
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Don't you know it!
06/12/2009 03:28:16 PM
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You talk the talk, that's for sure.
07/12/2009 08:14:41 PM
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Metaphor versus literalism
04/12/2009 05:42:03 PM
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Metaphor divorced from the reality runs risks, however.
04/12/2009 10:25:47 PM
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Honestly, the moral can always be dismissed as inapplicable if you want to dismiss it.
05/12/2009 12:16:39 AM
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While that's true, it's much harder to just dismiss Mockingbird.
05/12/2009 03:57:42 AM
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Then why read fiction at all? It's all a diversion.
05/12/2009 04:16:06 PM
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I think people should read non-fiction, and The Nine Hundred Days is an excellent book.
05/12/2009 04:41:50 PM
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aha. but.
07/12/2009 03:56:48 PM
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