Active Users:1251 Time:30/01/2025 07:57:05 AM
sorry about my atrocious spelling (including the one on pertinent) imlad Send a noteboard - 03/12/2009 07:14:59 PM
I also should note for you though, that in my opinion, myth and religious scriptures ARE indeed fantasy. I'm not an athiest, or even agnostic, but I have always felt that the old myths and legends of the "pagans" as well as those of the Jews, Christians, Muslims and Hindus was more fantasy than anything else (well, in the case of the Ramayana, I'd say science fiction, cuz it is all about aliens coming down to earth in their crazy spaceships!!). Albeit with some important messages embedded within, as well as occasional historical fact. That is just my personal belief though, and I really do not intend to offend anyone's personal religious views (well, I do in some way intend that for those who take scriptural text literally because that is just plain silliness; even most priests don't take the bible--no caps there from me!!--literally).

And maybe we should come up with a genre term that would include mythologies and such (after all, Tolkien didn't write speculative fiction, he wrote mythology). Maybe it could be called "historical fantasy" or "legendary fantasy" or some such.

The more I read this thread (and I am nowhere near complete, since I hadn't read all of it yet when I first started replying, and it has gotten soooo gods damned big since it started!!) the more I come to the conclusion that the whole idea of genres just causes too many problems (damned semantics!!). It would be easier to just talk about fiction and non-fiction, but I am an aspiring writer (I know, you couldn't tell from my posts, but my fiction prose reads a lot better than this shit, and makes more sense), and so instinctively try to put labels (with minimal judgements or connotations on them as possible) on things. Sometimes I really hate my native (and so far only) tongue.

I addressed this point earlier. There was a Trojan War, although the version presented in the Iliad is embellished. But you can go see Troy, and the rivers and streams mentioned in the Iliad. You can find every city the heroes came from. We know what their ships and weapons from that period looked like.

The actual poem describes gods, but look at how it does it: when the camp of the Achaean host is struck by disease, it is the work of Apollo shooting his arrows of disease. This is not because someone was "making up" Apollo. The Greeks of Homer's time (or at least of the Heroic Period) actually BELIEVED that this was how diseases could be generated. As a result, that isn't speculative fiction. At worst, it's poetic license, and at best it's firm belief that has since been proven wrong.

Yes, there are a few scenes where the gods participate more directly and talk amongst themselves. But once again, this was how people explained what had happened. It is no different fundamentally than saying Yahweh saved the Children of Israel by parting the Red Sea. We don't consider the Bible to be "speculative fiction," however. We also don't consider the Epic of Gilgamesh, or the Mahabharata or Bhagavad Gita to be speculative fiction. People believed it was true. When all these stories were written down, they had been passed on as part of the oral tradition of their peoples for generations.

That, quite simply, is MYTH. It is fundamentally different than speculative fiction. It is a defunct form of expression because our modern world makes it nearly impossible to generate new myths. Information is recorded almost immediately and supposed facts can be proven. Urban legends are disproven on Snopes.com almost immediately. The closest thing we have today is when academics (or the entire community) "spins" history to prove a certain point for propaganda purposes.
Death to the Regressives of the GOP and the TeaParty. No mercy for Conservatives. Burn them all at the stake for the hateful satanists they are.
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In Support of Other Fiction - 01/12/2009 09:06:14 PM 2115 Views
- 01/12/2009 09:22:56 PM 1184 Views
Re: - 01/12/2009 09:28:04 PM 1167 Views
Wow...we were just Santified *NM* - 03/12/2009 09:16:21 PM 581 Views
Well, let me offer a diverging view on the topic of speculative fiction. - 01/12/2009 09:46:35 PM 1093 Views
I would counter that the stripping away removes a level of reality. - 01/12/2009 10:05:28 PM 1189 Views
That's a Slippery Slope Because You Could Argue On the Same Basis That All Fiction Does That. - 01/12/2009 11:34:34 PM 1227 Views
I don't see the slippery slope, but rather, a confirmation of my original point. - 02/12/2009 01:41:24 AM 1179 Views
perhaps some university will do a study - 03/12/2009 03:55:54 PM 1140 Views
I'd like to see it - 03/12/2009 09:15:12 PM 1186 Views
I'll get to it once I finish my thesis - 03/12/2009 09:56:29 PM 1121 Views
If it looks like crap and smells like crap... - 03/12/2009 10:04:15 PM 1145 Views
I Think I'll Post a Thread on This. - 03/12/2009 06:47:05 PM 1102 Views
I'd like to see it. - 03/12/2009 09:23:07 PM 1161 Views
Regarding depth in Jordan - 03/12/2009 09:31:19 PM 1138 Views
I was thinking about that too - 03/12/2009 10:05:40 PM 1124 Views
Re: I was thinking about that too - 03/12/2009 10:09:26 PM 1222 Views
Destroying the Wheel is meaningless. - 03/12/2009 10:18:08 PM 1120 Views
Re: Destroying the Wheel is meaningless. - 03/12/2009 10:30:15 PM 1149 Views
I Totally Missed That. - 04/12/2009 10:45:56 PM 1205 Views
Re: I Totally Missed That. - 04/12/2009 10:47:59 PM 1192 Views
I Don't Believe It Cursory, But Comparative. - 04/12/2009 11:29:36 PM 1276 Views
Publication bookend Y2K? - 05/12/2009 10:36:01 AM 1199 Views
They're Thick Bookends. - 05/12/2009 06:12:06 PM 1131 Views
I'll Try to Have It Up Tomorrow Early. - 04/12/2009 11:24:18 PM 1232 Views
I like it. - 01/12/2009 10:28:48 PM 1147 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 01:43:05 AM 1295 Views
I find Michel Houellebecq to be one of the most intriguing writers of our time - 01/12/2009 11:14:05 PM 1237 Views
And, in recent memory, Orwell was a first-rate writer. - 02/12/2009 01:44:29 AM 1226 Views
wait! there's somebody "dirtier" than Piers Anthony or Philip Jose Farmer??? - 03/12/2009 04:00:28 PM 1199 Views
PJF is dirty? - 04/12/2009 12:16:12 AM 1068 Views
Nice post. - 02/12/2009 12:03:09 AM 1246 Views
Perhaps you're right. - 02/12/2009 01:47:10 AM 1106 Views
In its entirety? No. - 02/12/2009 02:00:10 PM 1152 Views
I agree! - 02/12/2009 12:17:10 AM 1355 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 01:50:22 AM 1066 Views
I guess I'll break my silence after almost a month and a half... - 02/12/2009 12:23:07 AM 1256 Views
Popcorn? - 02/12/2009 12:31:44 AM 1181 Views
Yes - 02/12/2009 12:39:10 AM 1214 Views
Lovecraft? - 02/12/2009 12:51:55 AM 1216 Views
Re-read what I said - 02/12/2009 12:55:08 AM 1280 Views
aahh - 02/12/2009 09:26:40 AM 1142 Views
Larry, please tell me you weren't... - 03/12/2009 04:33:32 PM 1007 Views
I concur - 02/12/2009 12:27:13 AM 1120 Views
I like your framing of the issue (and Shannara is the Taco Bell of writing). - 02/12/2009 02:03:51 AM 1187 Views
Thank you - 02/12/2009 09:30:42 AM 1128 Views
more like the mom&pop greasy-spoon diner of writing *NM* - 03/12/2009 05:00:21 PM 547 Views
I'm going to put this in my sig, if you don't mind. - 02/12/2009 03:31:13 AM 1204 Views
hehehe - 02/12/2009 09:31:28 AM 1084 Views
Am i the only one who reads books for fun? - 02/12/2009 12:33:52 AM 1231 Views
There isn't necessarily a contradiction - 02/12/2009 12:38:43 AM 1180 Views
I certainly didn't read The Lost Symbol for ANY cultural, intellectual or edifying reason. - 02/12/2009 02:05:45 AM 1134 Views
it didn't come across that way - 03/12/2009 05:15:36 PM 1160 Views
Of course not. Personally, I don't touch anything other than mind candy when I'm in school, - 02/12/2009 03:29:23 AM 1104 Views
one of the things that is important to me in books/shows - 03/12/2009 05:20:29 PM 1047 Views
We agree! - 03/12/2009 08:03:00 PM 1136 Views
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is a science fiction/fantasy movie. - 02/12/2009 12:54:08 AM 1200 Views
i was gonna point that out. thnks. *NM* - 02/12/2009 01:13:47 AM 498 Views
Reading only speculative literature is limiting and monotonous. - 02/12/2009 02:09:42 AM 1227 Views
I was going to say exactly that about "real" literature: monotonous and limiting. - 02/12/2009 01:57:49 PM 1141 Views
I think his point was that only SF/F wasn't good food. - 02/12/2009 02:15:29 PM 1117 Views
I would not disagree with you if you said that. - 02/12/2009 02:27:08 PM 1063 Views
Most non-speculative fiction is fluff as well though. - 03/12/2009 05:38:32 PM 1066 Views
hear hear!! I agree totally wert-man - 03/12/2009 07:20:09 PM 1124 Views
Which brings us back to my point. - 03/12/2009 08:04:24 PM 1183 Views
Actually, it is a film that does not fit neatly into one category - 02/12/2009 11:16:20 AM 1195 Views
Science Fiction is the most PERTINANT form of fiction in the world today - 02/12/2009 12:57:19 AM 1131 Views
don't get me wrong - 02/12/2009 01:28:08 AM 1164 Views
SF&F and 'real literature' are not mutually exclusive - 02/12/2009 01:19:05 AM 1123 Views
No, they are not - 02/12/2009 02:18:53 AM 1134 Views
This line is a load of bull - 03/12/2009 02:39:53 PM 1244 Views
So why don't we occasionally focus on "real" books that are technically spec fiction? - 02/12/2009 01:25:04 AM 1096 Views
Why must we limit our focus in that way? - 02/12/2009 02:20:11 AM 1105 Views
I don't see it as limiting or forcing. - 02/12/2009 03:16:07 AM 1115 Views
"Elite club" or "elitist clique"? - 02/12/2009 03:52:11 AM 1096 Views
Either way, I want in. *NM* - 02/12/2009 11:33:52 AM 586 Views
Elite club is how we midwestern rednecks refer to Elitist Clique. *chews on a piece of hay* - 02/12/2009 02:52:01 PM 1254 Views
I was born in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:01:36 PM 1159 Views
I know. - 02/12/2009 03:12:05 PM 1091 Views
Green Acres in reverse, eh? - 02/12/2009 03:38:09 PM 1133 Views
lmao - 02/12/2009 06:21:17 PM 1281 Views
*piledrivers you* - 02/12/2009 06:28:02 PM 1065 Views
...! - 02/12/2009 03:17:57 PM 1107 Views
Admit it. You know what I'm talking about. - 02/12/2009 03:29:31 PM 1122 Views
Re: Admit it. You know what I'm talking about. - 02/12/2009 03:31:26 PM 1072 Views
Vermont isn't in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:39:36 PM 1076 Views
Re: Vermont isn't in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:42:47 PM 1121 Views
Huh! I really didn't think of you as being a masochist. - 02/12/2009 01:51:55 AM 1088 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 02:21:00 AM 997 Views
Shitstorm! - 02/12/2009 03:06:59 AM 1061 Views
Heh heh heh. - 02/12/2009 03:45:40 AM 1115 Views
Read what you like to read. - 02/12/2009 04:18:53 AM 1192 Views
I'll super size you. Fine. *NM* - 02/12/2009 04:32:58 AM 550 Views
Oh noes! I'm getting word-fat! - 02/12/2009 04:59:05 AM 1116 Views
I seem to have struck a nerve. - 02/12/2009 05:20:27 AM 1145 Views
Apparently not the nerve you think, though. - 02/12/2009 06:42:02 AM 1221 Views
Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 02:13:10 PM 1126 Views
Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 03:26:59 PM 1143 Views
Agreed. - 02/12/2009 03:30:50 PM 1065 Views
Re: Agreed. - 02/12/2009 03:32:06 PM 1061 Views
Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 09:40:28 PM 1183 Views
I really did get under your skin - 02/12/2009 09:58:18 PM 1050 Views
- 02/12/2009 10:06:46 PM 1051 Views
Tom as much as you raise some great points, you are being a condescending ass. - 03/12/2009 04:26:27 AM 1112 Views
You're entitled to your opinion. I don't care. - 03/12/2009 04:51:18 AM 1082 Views
I keep replying. It's like a sickness. - 03/12/2009 05:15:28 AM 1100 Views
Your subject line reinforces my opinion. - 03/12/2009 05:31:50 AM 1020 Views
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room. *NM* - 03/12/2009 07:21:05 AM 537 Views
LOL! - 04/12/2009 12:21:36 AM 1069 Views
See, you just proved my point. - 04/12/2009 12:39:59 AM 1111 Views
Hm. - 02/12/2009 06:58:56 AM 1715 Views
Re-read my exact point. - 02/12/2009 02:18:20 PM 1053 Views
No. Some kind of reading is indeed essential. - 02/12/2009 02:28:22 PM 1217 Views
Somehow I get the feeling that this post hasn't caused quite as much controversy - 02/12/2009 06:53:18 AM 1214 Views
As I see it... - 02/12/2009 11:38:07 AM 1103 Views
Yep. - 02/12/2009 02:18:22 PM 1251 Views
Re: Yep. - 02/12/2009 03:35:38 PM 1115 Views
Euripides was poorly received, initially. - 02/12/2009 03:57:58 PM 1031 Views
Re: Euripides was poorly received, initially. - 02/12/2009 04:00:35 PM 1056 Views
I know. - 02/12/2009 04:18:16 PM 1127 Views
Re: I know. - 02/12/2009 04:23:14 PM 1066 Views
That is why he's so good, in my opinion. - 02/12/2009 06:15:45 PM 1218 Views
All reading of fiction is a diversion by the very nature of the activity. - 02/12/2009 03:43:05 PM 1106 Views
Diversion from direct action, yes. Diversion from reality, no. - 02/12/2009 04:15:48 PM 1080 Views
I maintain that all acts of reading fiction are a diversion from reality/ the realistic - 02/12/2009 05:43:16 PM 1091 Views
It seems a regressive argument to me. - 03/12/2009 01:18:02 AM 1047 Views
You're playing a game. - 03/12/2009 03:40:14 PM 1133 Views
I like your response. *NM* - 03/12/2009 05:37:09 PM 508 Views
I fundamentally agree with much of what you're saying, but there is a distinction. - 03/12/2009 06:44:02 PM 1120 Views
Oh I concur on that distinction. - 04/12/2009 09:06:34 PM 1161 Views
Spec fic is perhaps at it's best in autocracies? - 02/12/2009 04:10:56 PM 1041 Views
Bulgakov - 02/12/2009 04:25:17 PM 1106 Views
I've only read the first chapter of M&M. - 02/12/2009 04:36:09 PM 1078 Views
Re: I've only read the first chapter of M&M. - 02/12/2009 04:40:16 PM 1023 Views
Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me. - 02/12/2009 05:17:31 PM 1057 Views
Re: Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me. - 02/12/2009 05:40:16 PM 1115 Views
I suppose. - 02/12/2009 06:26:30 PM 1113 Views
Re: I suppose. - 02/12/2009 07:25:26 PM 1109 Views
Well, I don't hold escapism in such low esteem *NM* - 02/12/2009 07:56:13 PM 545 Views
That is what I mean - 02/12/2009 08:36:02 PM 1035 Views
This was something I was exploring earlier. - 02/12/2009 04:34:41 PM 1149 Views
Funny thing about the hivemind antagonist. - 02/12/2009 05:13:30 PM 1103 Views
I didn't see the zombies reading speculative fiction - 02/12/2009 05:30:26 PM 1185 Views
Oh, they prefer Clive Cussler. - 02/12/2009 06:23:42 PM 1160 Views
i think it comes more down to quality than genre. - 02/12/2009 04:55:20 PM 1126 Views
I disagree with the ultimate conclusion but agree with many of your points. - 02/12/2009 05:43:04 PM 1091 Views
the illiad is a classic - 02/12/2009 06:35:24 PM 1118 Views
There's only one "L" in Iliad - 02/12/2009 08:18:38 PM 1079 Views
Is there a safe answer to that question? *NM* - 02/12/2009 10:33:21 PM 570 Views
Maybe not. *NM* - 03/12/2009 12:59:09 AM 533 Views
It took me a few minutes to agree - 02/12/2009 07:04:59 PM 1073 Views
Well, I'm glad if you got something out of the post! - 02/12/2009 09:13:26 PM 1095 Views
Re: Well, I'm glad if you got something out of the post! - 02/12/2009 09:20:49 PM 1059 Views
I don't know. I've only read about 30 pages so far. *NM* - 02/12/2009 10:05:54 PM 569 Views
Many people have mentioned that there's quite a bit of good sff lit out there and you seem to agree. - 02/12/2009 07:33:42 PM 1197 Views
Hmmm - 02/12/2009 08:40:53 PM 1097 Views
Re: Hmmm - 02/12/2009 10:48:02 PM 1117 Views
The website is called "Read and Find Out". It doesn't specify what we're supposed to read. - 02/12/2009 08:42:19 PM 1170 Views
Anti the idea ? I see no evidence for this. - 02/12/2009 09:50:37 PM 1122 Views
Heh - 02/12/2009 09:56:30 PM 1121 Views
What do you mean ? Almost all the repliers agree with Tom - 03/12/2009 11:01:08 AM 1087 Views
Re: What do you mean ? Almost all the repliers agree with Tom - 03/12/2009 11:10:35 AM 1116 Views
I see. You don't read announcements. - 03/12/2009 11:12:04 AM 1066 Views
No, but it does bill itself as science fiction/fantasy. - 02/12/2009 10:51:41 PM 1205 Views
Yes. - 03/12/2009 12:01:30 AM 1194 Views
I think Rebekah and Camilla put it well. - 02/12/2009 10:05:24 PM 1173 Views
I think they make good points, as I said above. - 02/12/2009 10:56:55 PM 1075 Views
I agree with in principle - 02/12/2009 11:22:19 PM 1052 Views
Certainly. People are free to skip any discussion. - 03/12/2009 01:01:40 AM 1175 Views
I have a few objections. - 03/12/2009 12:24:43 AM 1140 Views
where else should we talk about it? - 03/12/2009 12:37:26 AM 1096 Views
random thoughts stole my subject line - 03/12/2009 01:56:07 AM 1131 Views
I think I could agree with a "comfort food" analogy - 03/12/2009 02:12:01 AM 1154 Views
Re: I think I could agree with a "comfort food" analogy - 03/12/2009 02:38:17 AM 1211 Views
That's it - 03/12/2009 04:02:28 AM 1214 Views
Question: is it really science fiction without one of the following: - 03/12/2009 05:13:21 AM 1138 Views
Certainly - 03/12/2009 06:13:38 AM 1196 Views
technically speaking, fantasy is classed as a sub heading under science fiction. *NM* - 03/12/2009 02:51:12 PM 464 Views
According to whom? *NM* - 03/12/2009 03:55:45 PM 592 Views
Yeah. What she asked! *NM* - 03/12/2009 09:23:55 PM 560 Views
Yes, it is but actually... - 03/12/2009 09:31:44 PM 1119 Views
Eternal Sunshine doesn't have a mad scientist. - 03/12/2009 10:09:01 PM 1043 Views
Really? - 04/12/2009 07:01:42 PM 1090 Views
But Dan Brown rocks da house!!! *NM* - 03/12/2009 02:16:47 AM 564 Views
*pumps fist* Give it up for Dan Brown! *NM* - 03/12/2009 03:58:23 AM 555 Views
That's Dan "booyah" Brown!!! Booyah!!! *NM* - 04/12/2009 02:00:56 AM 568 Views
another thing wrong with your argument - 03/12/2009 03:30:19 PM 1103 Views
Absolutely not. And, as I said before, there's only one "L" in Iliad. - 03/12/2009 06:53:35 PM 923 Views
sorry about my atrocious spelling (including the one on pertinent) - 03/12/2009 07:14:59 PM 1229 Views
No problem. On the substantive points: - 03/12/2009 08:00:33 PM 1157 Views
more importantly, which I think it being lost in all this, - 03/12/2009 08:05:27 PM 1141 Views
I'm not reading the Iliad again, once was enough - 04/12/2009 12:19:07 PM 1083 Views
Congratulations on the replies count - 03/12/2009 09:30:41 PM 1232 Views
That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 03/12/2009 10:50:29 PM 1159 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 04/12/2009 07:44:56 PM 1165 Views
But the objective truth of a setting can be measured. - 04/12/2009 10:37:10 PM 1087 Views
But does it make any difference in the objective value of the book? - 06/12/2009 09:35:59 AM 1240 Views
YES. - 06/12/2009 03:34:17 PM 1041 Views
NO - 07/12/2009 08:40:33 PM 1137 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 04/12/2009 10:25:08 PM 1104 Views
Yes, it is worse with movies. Much worse, in fact. - 04/12/2009 10:33:18 PM 1140 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 06/12/2009 09:36:11 AM 1104 Views
Maybe we're different, but I don't care for FX - 06/12/2009 01:37:53 PM 1045 Views
This is not about the personal taste - 07/12/2009 08:50:34 PM 1139 Views
I've obviously missed the show here... - 04/12/2009 12:14:30 AM 1065 Views
I'm not sure that's right. This thing just keeps growing. - 04/12/2009 12:46:24 AM 1177 Views
What, your penis? - 06/12/2009 02:40:09 AM 1069 Views
Don't you know it! - 06/12/2009 03:28:16 PM 983 Views
You talk the talk, that's for sure. - 07/12/2009 08:14:41 PM 1125 Views
Hate to break it to you... - 07/12/2009 09:54:24 PM 1169 Views
I thought you were gonna tell me... - 08/12/2009 03:07:54 PM 1237 Views
Metaphor versus literalism - 04/12/2009 05:42:03 PM 1140 Views
aha. but. - 07/12/2009 03:56:48 PM 1269 Views
Quoting Nietzsche is really hitting below the belt. - 07/12/2009 09:12:34 PM 1210 Views
It is good I was only paraphrasing, then - 08/12/2009 10:44:14 AM 1109 Views

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