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This line is a load of bull bme Send a noteboard - 03/12/2009 02:39:53 PM
However, the literary merit is less likely in speculative fiction.


Let's be honest here, all fiction is speculative. If it is not true, the author made it up and it is speculative. Now, I take it you are holding out that the inclusion of 'super natural' elements (magic, faster than light travel, non human intelligent beings, etc) automatically means that the work is not worthy in you eyes, with a few exceptions. I argue that these are just elements of a story, and it is up to the writer to use them well. I will echo Larry's response, Tolkien is not a good example. I love The Lord of the Rings, but Tolkien does immerse himself too far into myth building to really focus on literary content. But it is one hell of a story.

The vast majority of all literature does not have high literary merit, and that is where your argument falls apart. You concentrate on one genre (I am lumping all sci-fi and fantasy together) and leave out the rest of the other junk out there. And let's be very honest, most of it is junk. People reference the so called 'classics' (both modern and true classics) and hold them up as if they are some kind of Holy Grail. However, on further review, these 'classics' were just a few of the works published among a load of BS in a given year, and have proven the test of time. It just so happens that many have either super natural of futurist speculation elements in them.

Having said all that, I do agree with part of your original premise, only reading one genre is rather dull and boring. I just take exception with your automatic response that this genre is different that any other in the amount of 'junk' that gets published.
To everything there is a season --- football season, pre-season and off season.

May you be successful in all your projects.

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In Support of Other Fiction - 01/12/2009 09:06:14 PM 2113 Views
- 01/12/2009 09:22:56 PM 1184 Views
Re: - 01/12/2009 09:28:04 PM 1165 Views
Wow...we were just Santified *NM* - 03/12/2009 09:16:21 PM 580 Views
Well, let me offer a diverging view on the topic of speculative fiction. - 01/12/2009 09:46:35 PM 1093 Views
I would counter that the stripping away removes a level of reality. - 01/12/2009 10:05:28 PM 1188 Views
That's a Slippery Slope Because You Could Argue On the Same Basis That All Fiction Does That. - 01/12/2009 11:34:34 PM 1224 Views
I don't see the slippery slope, but rather, a confirmation of my original point. - 02/12/2009 01:41:24 AM 1178 Views
perhaps some university will do a study - 03/12/2009 03:55:54 PM 1139 Views
I'd like to see it - 03/12/2009 09:15:12 PM 1186 Views
I'll get to it once I finish my thesis - 03/12/2009 09:56:29 PM 1120 Views
If it looks like crap and smells like crap... - 03/12/2009 10:04:15 PM 1144 Views
I Think I'll Post a Thread on This. - 03/12/2009 06:47:05 PM 1100 Views
I'd like to see it. - 03/12/2009 09:23:07 PM 1158 Views
Regarding depth in Jordan - 03/12/2009 09:31:19 PM 1137 Views
I was thinking about that too - 03/12/2009 10:05:40 PM 1123 Views
Re: I was thinking about that too - 03/12/2009 10:09:26 PM 1221 Views
Destroying the Wheel is meaningless. - 03/12/2009 10:18:08 PM 1119 Views
Re: Destroying the Wheel is meaningless. - 03/12/2009 10:30:15 PM 1148 Views
I Totally Missed That. - 04/12/2009 10:45:56 PM 1204 Views
Re: I Totally Missed That. - 04/12/2009 10:47:59 PM 1191 Views
I Don't Believe It Cursory, But Comparative. - 04/12/2009 11:29:36 PM 1276 Views
Publication bookend Y2K? - 05/12/2009 10:36:01 AM 1199 Views
They're Thick Bookends. - 05/12/2009 06:12:06 PM 1130 Views
I'll Try to Have It Up Tomorrow Early. - 04/12/2009 11:24:18 PM 1229 Views
I like it. - 01/12/2009 10:28:48 PM 1144 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 01:43:05 AM 1294 Views
I find Michel Houellebecq to be one of the most intriguing writers of our time - 01/12/2009 11:14:05 PM 1236 Views
And, in recent memory, Orwell was a first-rate writer. - 02/12/2009 01:44:29 AM 1225 Views
wait! there's somebody "dirtier" than Piers Anthony or Philip Jose Farmer??? - 03/12/2009 04:00:28 PM 1199 Views
PJF is dirty? - 04/12/2009 12:16:12 AM 1066 Views
Nice post. - 02/12/2009 12:03:09 AM 1245 Views
Perhaps you're right. - 02/12/2009 01:47:10 AM 1105 Views
In its entirety? No. - 02/12/2009 02:00:10 PM 1151 Views
I agree! - 02/12/2009 12:17:10 AM 1354 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 01:50:22 AM 1066 Views
I guess I'll break my silence after almost a month and a half... - 02/12/2009 12:23:07 AM 1255 Views
Popcorn? - 02/12/2009 12:31:44 AM 1180 Views
Yes - 02/12/2009 12:39:10 AM 1214 Views
Lovecraft? - 02/12/2009 12:51:55 AM 1215 Views
Re-read what I said - 02/12/2009 12:55:08 AM 1278 Views
aahh - 02/12/2009 09:26:40 AM 1141 Views
Larry, please tell me you weren't... - 03/12/2009 04:33:32 PM 1003 Views
I concur - 02/12/2009 12:27:13 AM 1119 Views
I like your framing of the issue (and Shannara is the Taco Bell of writing). - 02/12/2009 02:03:51 AM 1185 Views
Thank you - 02/12/2009 09:30:42 AM 1128 Views
more like the mom&pop greasy-spoon diner of writing *NM* - 03/12/2009 05:00:21 PM 546 Views
I'm going to put this in my sig, if you don't mind. - 02/12/2009 03:31:13 AM 1204 Views
hehehe - 02/12/2009 09:31:28 AM 1084 Views
Am i the only one who reads books for fun? - 02/12/2009 12:33:52 AM 1231 Views
There isn't necessarily a contradiction - 02/12/2009 12:38:43 AM 1179 Views
I certainly didn't read The Lost Symbol for ANY cultural, intellectual or edifying reason. - 02/12/2009 02:05:45 AM 1133 Views
it didn't come across that way - 03/12/2009 05:15:36 PM 1159 Views
Of course not. Personally, I don't touch anything other than mind candy when I'm in school, - 02/12/2009 03:29:23 AM 1103 Views
one of the things that is important to me in books/shows - 03/12/2009 05:20:29 PM 1045 Views
We agree! - 03/12/2009 08:03:00 PM 1134 Views
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is a science fiction/fantasy movie. - 02/12/2009 12:54:08 AM 1200 Views
i was gonna point that out. thnks. *NM* - 02/12/2009 01:13:47 AM 497 Views
Reading only speculative literature is limiting and monotonous. - 02/12/2009 02:09:42 AM 1226 Views
I was going to say exactly that about "real" literature: monotonous and limiting. - 02/12/2009 01:57:49 PM 1140 Views
I think his point was that only SF/F wasn't good food. - 02/12/2009 02:15:29 PM 1117 Views
I would not disagree with you if you said that. - 02/12/2009 02:27:08 PM 1063 Views
Most non-speculative fiction is fluff as well though. - 03/12/2009 05:38:32 PM 1063 Views
hear hear!! I agree totally wert-man - 03/12/2009 07:20:09 PM 1123 Views
Which brings us back to my point. - 03/12/2009 08:04:24 PM 1182 Views
Actually, it is a film that does not fit neatly into one category - 02/12/2009 11:16:20 AM 1194 Views
Science Fiction is the most PERTINANT form of fiction in the world today - 02/12/2009 12:57:19 AM 1131 Views
don't get me wrong - 02/12/2009 01:28:08 AM 1163 Views
SF&F and 'real literature' are not mutually exclusive - 02/12/2009 01:19:05 AM 1122 Views
No, they are not - 02/12/2009 02:18:53 AM 1131 Views
This line is a load of bull - 03/12/2009 02:39:53 PM 1242 Views
So why don't we occasionally focus on "real" books that are technically spec fiction? - 02/12/2009 01:25:04 AM 1096 Views
Why must we limit our focus in that way? - 02/12/2009 02:20:11 AM 1104 Views
I don't see it as limiting or forcing. - 02/12/2009 03:16:07 AM 1114 Views
"Elite club" or "elitist clique"? - 02/12/2009 03:52:11 AM 1095 Views
Either way, I want in. *NM* - 02/12/2009 11:33:52 AM 586 Views
Elite club is how we midwestern rednecks refer to Elitist Clique. *chews on a piece of hay* - 02/12/2009 02:52:01 PM 1253 Views
I was born in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:01:36 PM 1159 Views
I know. - 02/12/2009 03:12:05 PM 1091 Views
Green Acres in reverse, eh? - 02/12/2009 03:38:09 PM 1132 Views
lmao - 02/12/2009 06:21:17 PM 1281 Views
*piledrivers you* - 02/12/2009 06:28:02 PM 1063 Views
...! - 02/12/2009 03:17:57 PM 1104 Views
Admit it. You know what I'm talking about. - 02/12/2009 03:29:31 PM 1120 Views
Re: Admit it. You know what I'm talking about. - 02/12/2009 03:31:26 PM 1071 Views
Vermont isn't in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:39:36 PM 1075 Views
Re: Vermont isn't in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:42:47 PM 1119 Views
Huh! I really didn't think of you as being a masochist. - 02/12/2009 01:51:55 AM 1087 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 02:21:00 AM 997 Views
Shitstorm! - 02/12/2009 03:06:59 AM 1061 Views
Heh heh heh. - 02/12/2009 03:45:40 AM 1114 Views
Read what you like to read. - 02/12/2009 04:18:53 AM 1192 Views
I'll super size you. Fine. *NM* - 02/12/2009 04:32:58 AM 549 Views
Oh noes! I'm getting word-fat! - 02/12/2009 04:59:05 AM 1115 Views
I seem to have struck a nerve. - 02/12/2009 05:20:27 AM 1145 Views
Apparently not the nerve you think, though. - 02/12/2009 06:42:02 AM 1221 Views
Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 02:13:10 PM 1125 Views
Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 03:26:59 PM 1141 Views
Agreed. - 02/12/2009 03:30:50 PM 1064 Views
Re: Agreed. - 02/12/2009 03:32:06 PM 1060 Views
Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 09:40:28 PM 1183 Views
I really did get under your skin - 02/12/2009 09:58:18 PM 1049 Views
- 02/12/2009 10:06:46 PM 1049 Views
Tom as much as you raise some great points, you are being a condescending ass. - 03/12/2009 04:26:27 AM 1111 Views
You're entitled to your opinion. I don't care. - 03/12/2009 04:51:18 AM 1081 Views
I keep replying. It's like a sickness. - 03/12/2009 05:15:28 AM 1099 Views
Your subject line reinforces my opinion. - 03/12/2009 05:31:50 AM 1019 Views
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room. *NM* - 03/12/2009 07:21:05 AM 537 Views
LOL! - 04/12/2009 12:21:36 AM 1069 Views
See, you just proved my point. - 04/12/2009 12:39:59 AM 1111 Views
Hm. - 02/12/2009 06:58:56 AM 1712 Views
Re-read my exact point. - 02/12/2009 02:18:20 PM 1053 Views
No. Some kind of reading is indeed essential. - 02/12/2009 02:28:22 PM 1217 Views
Somehow I get the feeling that this post hasn't caused quite as much controversy - 02/12/2009 06:53:18 AM 1214 Views
As I see it... - 02/12/2009 11:38:07 AM 1102 Views
Yep. - 02/12/2009 02:18:22 PM 1250 Views
Re: Yep. - 02/12/2009 03:35:38 PM 1114 Views
Euripides was poorly received, initially. - 02/12/2009 03:57:58 PM 1031 Views
Re: Euripides was poorly received, initially. - 02/12/2009 04:00:35 PM 1056 Views
I know. - 02/12/2009 04:18:16 PM 1127 Views
Re: I know. - 02/12/2009 04:23:14 PM 1065 Views
That is why he's so good, in my opinion. - 02/12/2009 06:15:45 PM 1218 Views
All reading of fiction is a diversion by the very nature of the activity. - 02/12/2009 03:43:05 PM 1105 Views
Diversion from direct action, yes. Diversion from reality, no. - 02/12/2009 04:15:48 PM 1080 Views
I maintain that all acts of reading fiction are a diversion from reality/ the realistic - 02/12/2009 05:43:16 PM 1091 Views
It seems a regressive argument to me. - 03/12/2009 01:18:02 AM 1045 Views
You're playing a game. - 03/12/2009 03:40:14 PM 1131 Views
I like your response. *NM* - 03/12/2009 05:37:09 PM 506 Views
I fundamentally agree with much of what you're saying, but there is a distinction. - 03/12/2009 06:44:02 PM 1119 Views
Oh I concur on that distinction. - 04/12/2009 09:06:34 PM 1161 Views
Spec fic is perhaps at it's best in autocracies? - 02/12/2009 04:10:56 PM 1039 Views
Bulgakov - 02/12/2009 04:25:17 PM 1104 Views
I've only read the first chapter of M&M. - 02/12/2009 04:36:09 PM 1077 Views
Re: I've only read the first chapter of M&M. - 02/12/2009 04:40:16 PM 1021 Views
Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me. - 02/12/2009 05:17:31 PM 1056 Views
Re: Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me. - 02/12/2009 05:40:16 PM 1114 Views
I suppose. - 02/12/2009 06:26:30 PM 1111 Views
Re: I suppose. - 02/12/2009 07:25:26 PM 1109 Views
Well, I don't hold escapism in such low esteem *NM* - 02/12/2009 07:56:13 PM 544 Views
That is what I mean - 02/12/2009 08:36:02 PM 1034 Views
This was something I was exploring earlier. - 02/12/2009 04:34:41 PM 1147 Views
Funny thing about the hivemind antagonist. - 02/12/2009 05:13:30 PM 1102 Views
I didn't see the zombies reading speculative fiction - 02/12/2009 05:30:26 PM 1185 Views
Oh, they prefer Clive Cussler. - 02/12/2009 06:23:42 PM 1158 Views
i think it comes more down to quality than genre. - 02/12/2009 04:55:20 PM 1125 Views
I disagree with the ultimate conclusion but agree with many of your points. - 02/12/2009 05:43:04 PM 1090 Views
the illiad is a classic - 02/12/2009 06:35:24 PM 1118 Views
There's only one "L" in Iliad - 02/12/2009 08:18:38 PM 1078 Views
Is there a safe answer to that question? *NM* - 02/12/2009 10:33:21 PM 570 Views
Maybe not. *NM* - 03/12/2009 12:59:09 AM 532 Views
It took me a few minutes to agree - 02/12/2009 07:04:59 PM 1072 Views
Well, I'm glad if you got something out of the post! - 02/12/2009 09:13:26 PM 1092 Views
Re: Well, I'm glad if you got something out of the post! - 02/12/2009 09:20:49 PM 1059 Views
I don't know. I've only read about 30 pages so far. *NM* - 02/12/2009 10:05:54 PM 567 Views
Many people have mentioned that there's quite a bit of good sff lit out there and you seem to agree. - 02/12/2009 07:33:42 PM 1196 Views
Hmmm - 02/12/2009 08:40:53 PM 1094 Views
Re: Hmmm - 02/12/2009 10:48:02 PM 1116 Views
The website is called "Read and Find Out". It doesn't specify what we're supposed to read. - 02/12/2009 08:42:19 PM 1167 Views
Anti the idea ? I see no evidence for this. - 02/12/2009 09:50:37 PM 1120 Views
Heh - 02/12/2009 09:56:30 PM 1117 Views
What do you mean ? Almost all the repliers agree with Tom - 03/12/2009 11:01:08 AM 1086 Views
Re: What do you mean ? Almost all the repliers agree with Tom - 03/12/2009 11:10:35 AM 1114 Views
I see. You don't read announcements. - 03/12/2009 11:12:04 AM 1065 Views
No, but it does bill itself as science fiction/fantasy. - 02/12/2009 10:51:41 PM 1203 Views
Yes. - 03/12/2009 12:01:30 AM 1191 Views
I think Rebekah and Camilla put it well. - 02/12/2009 10:05:24 PM 1172 Views
I think they make good points, as I said above. - 02/12/2009 10:56:55 PM 1072 Views
I agree with in principle - 02/12/2009 11:22:19 PM 1050 Views
Certainly. People are free to skip any discussion. - 03/12/2009 01:01:40 AM 1174 Views
I have a few objections. - 03/12/2009 12:24:43 AM 1138 Views
where else should we talk about it? - 03/12/2009 12:37:26 AM 1093 Views
random thoughts stole my subject line - 03/12/2009 01:56:07 AM 1129 Views
I think I could agree with a "comfort food" analogy - 03/12/2009 02:12:01 AM 1150 Views
Re: I think I could agree with a "comfort food" analogy - 03/12/2009 02:38:17 AM 1210 Views
That's it - 03/12/2009 04:02:28 AM 1213 Views
Question: is it really science fiction without one of the following: - 03/12/2009 05:13:21 AM 1137 Views
Certainly - 03/12/2009 06:13:38 AM 1192 Views
technically speaking, fantasy is classed as a sub heading under science fiction. *NM* - 03/12/2009 02:51:12 PM 464 Views
According to whom? *NM* - 03/12/2009 03:55:45 PM 592 Views
Yeah. What she asked! *NM* - 03/12/2009 09:23:55 PM 559 Views
Yes, it is but actually... - 03/12/2009 09:31:44 PM 1116 Views
Eternal Sunshine doesn't have a mad scientist. - 03/12/2009 10:09:01 PM 1042 Views
Really? - 04/12/2009 07:01:42 PM 1087 Views
But Dan Brown rocks da house!!! *NM* - 03/12/2009 02:16:47 AM 564 Views
*pumps fist* Give it up for Dan Brown! *NM* - 03/12/2009 03:58:23 AM 554 Views
That's Dan "booyah" Brown!!! Booyah!!! *NM* - 04/12/2009 02:00:56 AM 568 Views
another thing wrong with your argument - 03/12/2009 03:30:19 PM 1101 Views
Absolutely not. And, as I said before, there's only one "L" in Iliad. - 03/12/2009 06:53:35 PM 921 Views
sorry about my atrocious spelling (including the one on pertinent) - 03/12/2009 07:14:59 PM 1226 Views
No problem. On the substantive points: - 03/12/2009 08:00:33 PM 1154 Views
more importantly, which I think it being lost in all this, - 03/12/2009 08:05:27 PM 1140 Views
I'm not reading the Iliad again, once was enough - 04/12/2009 12:19:07 PM 1081 Views
Congratulations on the replies count - 03/12/2009 09:30:41 PM 1229 Views
That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 03/12/2009 10:50:29 PM 1157 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 04/12/2009 07:44:56 PM 1162 Views
But the objective truth of a setting can be measured. - 04/12/2009 10:37:10 PM 1084 Views
But does it make any difference in the objective value of the book? - 06/12/2009 09:35:59 AM 1238 Views
YES. - 06/12/2009 03:34:17 PM 1040 Views
NO - 07/12/2009 08:40:33 PM 1135 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 04/12/2009 10:25:08 PM 1102 Views
Yes, it is worse with movies. Much worse, in fact. - 04/12/2009 10:33:18 PM 1139 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 06/12/2009 09:36:11 AM 1099 Views
Maybe we're different, but I don't care for FX - 06/12/2009 01:37:53 PM 1043 Views
This is not about the personal taste - 07/12/2009 08:50:34 PM 1136 Views
I've obviously missed the show here... - 04/12/2009 12:14:30 AM 1063 Views
I'm not sure that's right. This thing just keeps growing. - 04/12/2009 12:46:24 AM 1176 Views
What, your penis? - 06/12/2009 02:40:09 AM 1067 Views
Don't you know it! - 06/12/2009 03:28:16 PM 981 Views
You talk the talk, that's for sure. - 07/12/2009 08:14:41 PM 1123 Views
Hate to break it to you... - 07/12/2009 09:54:24 PM 1168 Views
I thought you were gonna tell me... - 08/12/2009 03:07:54 PM 1235 Views
Metaphor versus literalism - 04/12/2009 05:42:03 PM 1139 Views
aha. but. - 07/12/2009 03:56:48 PM 1268 Views
Quoting Nietzsche is really hitting below the belt. - 07/12/2009 09:12:34 PM 1207 Views
It is good I was only paraphrasing, then - 08/12/2009 10:44:14 AM 1107 Views

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