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Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. Craig Send a noteboard - 02/12/2009 09:40:28 PM
I'm not asking or demanding that you defend yourself or explain your preferences to the message board. You, however, immediately became defensive. That shows that you feel a NEED to defend yourself, which to my mind still means you're insecure about something I said. Perhaps I'm wrong.

Again with the patronizing attempt at psychoanalyzing. Kudos on that. Lemme know how it works out for you.

What you seem to be interpreting as "defensive" is my rejection of your thesis, as I saw it in your original post. Admittedly I didn't go into great detail in my first reply, but I at least thought I'd explained myself better in follow-up posts. Perhaps not, though.

This post was written in defense of other types of fiction as a response to the dialogue going on in the announced post regarding January's book club.

And as I mentioned in my previous post, it reads to me as an attack on one genre rather than a defense of another genre. If you say you didn't intend it as such, then I will certainly believe you - but that interpretation colored my response to the post.

Intellectual achievement and learning is a life-long process that ends only when we die, and reading remains one of the best ways to continue that process. I keep trying to think of other ways that people can effectively continue to learn, but nothing seems as effective as books.

I'm going to have to go with Camilla's response here - seeking out new experiences seems to me an equally valid way of continuing one's "intellectual achievement," for instance. Once again, maybe my disagreement stems from the way I read your post; you seem to be saying that reading - and more, reading the "right things!" - is the only way to grow as a person. That's the part that strikes me as rather "elitist."

I therefore repeat my statement: someone who reads only unchallenging books is stagnating intellectually.

And here's my other primary irritant in your post(s). Clearly this is your belief, and you are 100% entitled to your belief. The fact that you keep repeating your personal opinion, in such derisive terms, as a fact - you seriously don't see why anyone might take umbrage at that?

Whether I make this point by encouraging variety in a positive manner or as a reaction to choices suggested by others and hence by indicting a particular set of choices as bad, the result is the same.

Depends what you mean by "result." If, as you claim, your goal is to encourage people to "read outside the box" - then the result is not the same, because you instead appear to be denigrating a certain category of readers, which is completely counter-productive to your stated goal.

You in your response said essentially that you don't read challenging books and are happy with it. As a result, my last point to which you responded as cited is not an assumption, but rather simply a statement based on the set of facts as you provided them to me. If they are incorrect, it is due to your misrepresentation of your reading habits to me.

I'm afraid it's only based on your misplaced conclusions about my reading habits. I was specifically objecting to your spec-fic-as-fast-food analogy, and rather than inquiring, you seem to have decided to assume that it's because that's all I read is spec-fic. As I've already admitted, I could have made this clearer in my original post - but you also could have simply asked for clarification, rather than making an assumption and arguing based on that.


All that said. I read for enjoyment. It's a leisure activity for me. That doesn't mean that all I read is spec-fic, quite the contrary - I read all genres and formats. Whatever strikes my fancy, be it an epic space opera, the life of Nikola Tesla, the travelogue of a future revolutionary, the Divine Comedy, or some Giants and White Gold Rings. I read what interests me, and sometimes it's good, and sometimes it's just entertaining, and sometimes it's a piece of crap. But I don't read because I feel some obscure need to "better myself intellectually." If you feel that need, and that's why you read what you do, then I can think of no conceivable objection to that. If you think a particular book is Good and Important and that More People Should Read It - you should get the word out, suggest it, tell people that It Is Good! But telling people that what they're reading is nothing but crap - well, don't be surprised when they suddenly don't give a shite about your opinion. :)
I am made of poison.
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In Support of Other Fiction - 01/12/2009 09:06:14 PM 2386 Views
- 01/12/2009 09:22:56 PM 1437 Views
Re: - 01/12/2009 09:28:04 PM 1437 Views
Wow...we were just Santified *NM* - 03/12/2009 09:16:21 PM 749 Views
Well, let me offer a diverging view on the topic of speculative fiction. - 01/12/2009 09:46:35 PM 1369 Views
I would counter that the stripping away removes a level of reality. - 01/12/2009 10:05:28 PM 1449 Views
That's a Slippery Slope Because You Could Argue On the Same Basis That All Fiction Does That. - 01/12/2009 11:34:34 PM 1501 Views
I don't see the slippery slope, but rather, a confirmation of my original point. - 02/12/2009 01:41:24 AM 1415 Views
perhaps some university will do a study - 03/12/2009 03:55:54 PM 1418 Views
I'd like to see it - 03/12/2009 09:15:12 PM 1441 Views
I'll get to it once I finish my thesis - 03/12/2009 09:56:29 PM 1390 Views
If it looks like crap and smells like crap... - 03/12/2009 10:04:15 PM 1430 Views
I Think I'll Post a Thread on This. - 03/12/2009 06:47:05 PM 1377 Views
I'd like to see it. - 03/12/2009 09:23:07 PM 1461 Views
Regarding depth in Jordan - 03/12/2009 09:31:19 PM 1415 Views
I was thinking about that too - 03/12/2009 10:05:40 PM 1406 Views
Re: I was thinking about that too - 03/12/2009 10:09:26 PM 1476 Views
Destroying the Wheel is meaningless. - 03/12/2009 10:18:08 PM 1343 Views
Re: Destroying the Wheel is meaningless. - 03/12/2009 10:30:15 PM 1418 Views
I Totally Missed That. - 04/12/2009 10:45:56 PM 1504 Views
Re: I Totally Missed That. - 04/12/2009 10:47:59 PM 1443 Views
I Don't Believe It Cursory, But Comparative. - 04/12/2009 11:29:36 PM 1567 Views
Publication bookend Y2K? - 05/12/2009 10:36:01 AM 1452 Views
They're Thick Bookends. - 05/12/2009 06:12:06 PM 1412 Views
I'll Try to Have It Up Tomorrow Early. - 04/12/2009 11:24:18 PM 1467 Views
I like it. - 01/12/2009 10:28:48 PM 1408 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 01:43:05 AM 1554 Views
I find Michel Houellebecq to be one of the most intriguing writers of our time - 01/12/2009 11:14:05 PM 1486 Views
And, in recent memory, Orwell was a first-rate writer. - 02/12/2009 01:44:29 AM 1461 Views
wait! there's somebody "dirtier" than Piers Anthony or Philip Jose Farmer??? - 03/12/2009 04:00:28 PM 1462 Views
PJF is dirty? - 04/12/2009 12:16:12 AM 1329 Views
Nice post. - 02/12/2009 12:03:09 AM 1494 Views
Perhaps you're right. - 02/12/2009 01:47:10 AM 1400 Views
In its entirety? No. - 02/12/2009 02:00:10 PM 1400 Views
I agree! - 02/12/2009 12:17:10 AM 1685 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 01:50:22 AM 1345 Views
I guess I'll break my silence after almost a month and a half... - 02/12/2009 12:23:07 AM 1504 Views
Popcorn? - 02/12/2009 12:31:44 AM 1440 Views
Yes - 02/12/2009 12:39:10 AM 1484 Views
Lovecraft? - 02/12/2009 12:51:55 AM 1457 Views
Re-read what I said - 02/12/2009 12:55:08 AM 1518 Views
aahh - 02/12/2009 09:26:40 AM 1394 Views
Larry, please tell me you weren't... - 03/12/2009 04:33:32 PM 1264 Views
I concur - 02/12/2009 12:27:13 AM 1381 Views
I like your framing of the issue (and Shannara is the Taco Bell of writing). - 02/12/2009 02:03:51 AM 1451 Views
Thank you - 02/12/2009 09:30:42 AM 1387 Views
more like the mom&pop greasy-spoon diner of writing *NM* - 03/12/2009 05:00:21 PM 668 Views
I'm going to put this in my sig, if you don't mind. - 02/12/2009 03:31:13 AM 1432 Views
hehehe - 02/12/2009 09:31:28 AM 1308 Views
Am i the only one who reads books for fun? - 02/12/2009 12:33:52 AM 1474 Views
There isn't necessarily a contradiction - 02/12/2009 12:38:43 AM 1471 Views
I certainly didn't read The Lost Symbol for ANY cultural, intellectual or edifying reason. - 02/12/2009 02:05:45 AM 1400 Views
it didn't come across that way - 03/12/2009 05:15:36 PM 1398 Views
Of course not. Personally, I don't touch anything other than mind candy when I'm in school, - 02/12/2009 03:29:23 AM 1403 Views
one of the things that is important to me in books/shows - 03/12/2009 05:20:29 PM 1313 Views
We agree! - 03/12/2009 08:03:00 PM 1383 Views
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is a science fiction/fantasy movie. - 02/12/2009 12:54:08 AM 1463 Views
i was gonna point that out. thnks. *NM* - 02/12/2009 01:13:47 AM 623 Views
Reading only speculative literature is limiting and monotonous. - 02/12/2009 02:09:42 AM 1481 Views
I was going to say exactly that about "real" literature: monotonous and limiting. - 02/12/2009 01:57:49 PM 1424 Views
I think his point was that only SF/F wasn't good food. - 02/12/2009 02:15:29 PM 1390 Views
I would not disagree with you if you said that. - 02/12/2009 02:27:08 PM 1331 Views
Most non-speculative fiction is fluff as well though. - 03/12/2009 05:38:32 PM 1306 Views
hear hear!! I agree totally wert-man - 03/12/2009 07:20:09 PM 1405 Views
Which brings us back to my point. - 03/12/2009 08:04:24 PM 1429 Views
Actually, it is a film that does not fit neatly into one category - 02/12/2009 11:16:20 AM 1435 Views
Science Fiction is the most PERTINANT form of fiction in the world today - 02/12/2009 12:57:19 AM 1437 Views
don't get me wrong - 02/12/2009 01:28:08 AM 1414 Views
SF&F and 'real literature' are not mutually exclusive - 02/12/2009 01:19:05 AM 1400 Views
No, they are not - 02/12/2009 02:18:53 AM 1377 Views
This line is a load of bull - 03/12/2009 02:39:53 PM 1508 Views
So why don't we occasionally focus on "real" books that are technically spec fiction? - 02/12/2009 01:25:04 AM 1338 Views
Why must we limit our focus in that way? - 02/12/2009 02:20:11 AM 1360 Views
I don't see it as limiting or forcing. - 02/12/2009 03:16:07 AM 1361 Views
"Elite club" or "elitist clique"? - 02/12/2009 03:52:11 AM 1336 Views
Either way, I want in. *NM* - 02/12/2009 11:33:52 AM 730 Views
Elite club is how we midwestern rednecks refer to Elitist Clique. *chews on a piece of hay* - 02/12/2009 02:52:01 PM 1529 Views
I was born in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:01:36 PM 1381 Views
I know. - 02/12/2009 03:12:05 PM 1366 Views
Green Acres in reverse, eh? - 02/12/2009 03:38:09 PM 1373 Views
lmao - 02/12/2009 06:21:17 PM 1540 Views
*piledrivers you* - 02/12/2009 06:28:02 PM 1322 Views
...! - 02/12/2009 03:17:57 PM 1328 Views
Admit it. You know what I'm talking about. - 02/12/2009 03:29:31 PM 1391 Views
Re: Admit it. You know what I'm talking about. - 02/12/2009 03:31:26 PM 1325 Views
Vermont isn't in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:39:36 PM 1321 Views
Re: Vermont isn't in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:42:47 PM 1358 Views
Huh! I really didn't think of you as being a masochist. - 02/12/2009 01:51:55 AM 1363 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 02:21:00 AM 1244 Views
Shitstorm! - 02/12/2009 03:06:59 AM 1327 Views
Heh heh heh. - 02/12/2009 03:45:40 AM 1364 Views
Read what you like to read. - 02/12/2009 04:18:53 AM 1482 Views
I'll super size you. Fine. *NM* - 02/12/2009 04:32:58 AM 674 Views
Oh noes! I'm getting word-fat! - 02/12/2009 04:59:05 AM 1380 Views
I seem to have struck a nerve. - 02/12/2009 05:20:27 AM 1382 Views
Apparently not the nerve you think, though. - 02/12/2009 06:42:02 AM 1461 Views
Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 02:13:10 PM 1417 Views
Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 03:26:59 PM 1386 Views
Agreed. - 02/12/2009 03:30:50 PM 1310 Views
Re: Agreed. - 02/12/2009 03:32:06 PM 1317 Views
Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 09:40:28 PM 1464 Views
I really did get under your skin - 02/12/2009 09:58:18 PM 1304 Views
- 02/12/2009 10:06:46 PM 1311 Views
Tom as much as you raise some great points, you are being a condescending ass. - 03/12/2009 04:26:27 AM 1371 Views
You're entitled to your opinion. I don't care. - 03/12/2009 04:51:18 AM 1338 Views
I keep replying. It's like a sickness. - 03/12/2009 05:15:28 AM 1358 Views
Your subject line reinforces my opinion. - 03/12/2009 05:31:50 AM 1269 Views
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room. *NM* - 03/12/2009 07:21:05 AM 665 Views
LOL! - 04/12/2009 12:21:36 AM 1330 Views
See, you just proved my point. - 04/12/2009 12:39:59 AM 1365 Views
Hm. - 02/12/2009 06:58:56 AM 1968 Views
Re-read my exact point. - 02/12/2009 02:18:20 PM 1313 Views
No. Some kind of reading is indeed essential. - 02/12/2009 02:28:22 PM 1448 Views
Somehow I get the feeling that this post hasn't caused quite as much controversy - 02/12/2009 06:53:18 AM 1480 Views
As I see it... - 02/12/2009 11:38:07 AM 1360 Views
Yep. - 02/12/2009 02:18:22 PM 1510 Views
Re: Yep. - 02/12/2009 03:35:38 PM 1371 Views
Euripides was poorly received, initially. - 02/12/2009 03:57:58 PM 1290 Views
Re: Euripides was poorly received, initially. - 02/12/2009 04:00:35 PM 1309 Views
I know. - 02/12/2009 04:18:16 PM 1369 Views
Re: I know. - 02/12/2009 04:23:14 PM 1317 Views
That is why he's so good, in my opinion. - 02/12/2009 06:15:45 PM 1509 Views
All reading of fiction is a diversion by the very nature of the activity. - 02/12/2009 03:43:05 PM 1358 Views
Diversion from direct action, yes. Diversion from reality, no. - 02/12/2009 04:15:48 PM 1322 Views
I maintain that all acts of reading fiction are a diversion from reality/ the realistic - 02/12/2009 05:43:16 PM 1348 Views
It seems a regressive argument to me. - 03/12/2009 01:18:02 AM 1296 Views
You're playing a game. - 03/12/2009 03:40:14 PM 1394 Views
I like your response. *NM* - 03/12/2009 05:37:09 PM 648 Views
I fundamentally agree with much of what you're saying, but there is a distinction. - 03/12/2009 06:44:02 PM 1392 Views
Oh I concur on that distinction. - 04/12/2009 09:06:34 PM 1405 Views
Spec fic is perhaps at it's best in autocracies? - 02/12/2009 04:10:56 PM 1269 Views
Bulgakov - 02/12/2009 04:25:17 PM 1392 Views
I've only read the first chapter of M&M. - 02/12/2009 04:36:09 PM 1346 Views
Re: I've only read the first chapter of M&M. - 02/12/2009 04:40:16 PM 1257 Views
Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me. - 02/12/2009 05:17:31 PM 1329 Views
Re: Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me. - 02/12/2009 05:40:16 PM 1360 Views
I suppose. - 02/12/2009 06:26:30 PM 1345 Views
Re: I suppose. - 02/12/2009 07:25:26 PM 1367 Views
Well, I don't hold escapism in such low esteem *NM* - 02/12/2009 07:56:13 PM 669 Views
That is what I mean - 02/12/2009 08:36:02 PM 1304 Views
This was something I was exploring earlier. - 02/12/2009 04:34:41 PM 1419 Views
Funny thing about the hivemind antagonist. - 02/12/2009 05:13:30 PM 1342 Views
I didn't see the zombies reading speculative fiction - 02/12/2009 05:30:26 PM 1450 Views
Oh, they prefer Clive Cussler. - 02/12/2009 06:23:42 PM 1408 Views
i think it comes more down to quality than genre. - 02/12/2009 04:55:20 PM 1377 Views
I disagree with the ultimate conclusion but agree with many of your points. - 02/12/2009 05:43:04 PM 1353 Views
the illiad is a classic - 02/12/2009 06:35:24 PM 1362 Views
There's only one "L" in Iliad - 02/12/2009 08:18:38 PM 1334 Views
Is there a safe answer to that question? *NM* - 02/12/2009 10:33:21 PM 725 Views
Maybe not. *NM* - 03/12/2009 12:59:09 AM 669 Views
It took me a few minutes to agree - 02/12/2009 07:04:59 PM 1342 Views
Well, I'm glad if you got something out of the post! - 02/12/2009 09:13:26 PM 1352 Views
Re: Well, I'm glad if you got something out of the post! - 02/12/2009 09:20:49 PM 1324 Views
I don't know. I've only read about 30 pages so far. *NM* - 02/12/2009 10:05:54 PM 731 Views
Many people have mentioned that there's quite a bit of good sff lit out there and you seem to agree. - 02/12/2009 07:33:42 PM 1449 Views
Hmmm - 02/12/2009 08:40:53 PM 1313 Views
Re: Hmmm - 02/12/2009 10:48:02 PM 1343 Views
The website is called "Read and Find Out". It doesn't specify what we're supposed to read. - 02/12/2009 08:42:19 PM 1420 Views
Anti the idea ? I see no evidence for this. - 02/12/2009 09:50:37 PM 1379 Views
Heh - 02/12/2009 09:56:30 PM 1368 Views
What do you mean ? Almost all the repliers agree with Tom - 03/12/2009 11:01:08 AM 1347 Views
Re: What do you mean ? Almost all the repliers agree with Tom - 03/12/2009 11:10:35 AM 1390 Views
I see. You don't read announcements. - 03/12/2009 11:12:04 AM 1326 Views
No, but it does bill itself as science fiction/fantasy. - 02/12/2009 10:51:41 PM 1501 Views
Yes. - 03/12/2009 12:01:30 AM 1429 Views
I think Rebekah and Camilla put it well. - 02/12/2009 10:05:24 PM 1460 Views
I think they make good points, as I said above. - 02/12/2009 10:56:55 PM 1311 Views
I agree with in principle - 02/12/2009 11:22:19 PM 1288 Views
Certainly. People are free to skip any discussion. - 03/12/2009 01:01:40 AM 1467 Views
I have a few objections. - 03/12/2009 12:24:43 AM 1384 Views
where else should we talk about it? - 03/12/2009 12:37:26 AM 1375 Views
random thoughts stole my subject line - 03/12/2009 01:56:07 AM 1421 Views
I think I could agree with a "comfort food" analogy - 03/12/2009 02:12:01 AM 1389 Views
Re: I think I could agree with a "comfort food" analogy - 03/12/2009 02:38:17 AM 1447 Views
That's it - 03/12/2009 04:02:28 AM 1495 Views
Question: is it really science fiction without one of the following: - 03/12/2009 05:13:21 AM 1367 Views
Certainly - 03/12/2009 06:13:38 AM 1443 Views
technically speaking, fantasy is classed as a sub heading under science fiction. *NM* - 03/12/2009 02:51:12 PM 584 Views
According to whom? *NM* - 03/12/2009 03:55:45 PM 709 Views
Yeah. What she asked! *NM* - 03/12/2009 09:23:55 PM 697 Views
Yes, it is but actually... - 03/12/2009 09:31:44 PM 1365 Views
Eternal Sunshine doesn't have a mad scientist. - 03/12/2009 10:09:01 PM 1301 Views
Really? - 04/12/2009 07:01:42 PM 1343 Views
But Dan Brown rocks da house!!! *NM* - 03/12/2009 02:16:47 AM 683 Views
*pumps fist* Give it up for Dan Brown! *NM* - 03/12/2009 03:58:23 AM 714 Views
That's Dan "booyah" Brown!!! Booyah!!! *NM* - 04/12/2009 02:00:56 AM 689 Views
another thing wrong with your argument - 03/12/2009 03:30:19 PM 1391 Views
Absolutely not. And, as I said before, there's only one "L" in Iliad. - 03/12/2009 06:53:35 PM 1180 Views
sorry about my atrocious spelling (including the one on pertinent) - 03/12/2009 07:14:59 PM 1470 Views
No problem. On the substantive points: - 03/12/2009 08:00:33 PM 1403 Views
more importantly, which I think it being lost in all this, - 03/12/2009 08:05:27 PM 1362 Views
I'm not reading the Iliad again, once was enough - 04/12/2009 12:19:07 PM 1338 Views
Congratulations on the replies count - 03/12/2009 09:30:41 PM 1470 Views
That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 03/12/2009 10:50:29 PM 1388 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 04/12/2009 07:44:56 PM 1432 Views
But the objective truth of a setting can be measured. - 04/12/2009 10:37:10 PM 1337 Views
But does it make any difference in the objective value of the book? - 06/12/2009 09:35:59 AM 1498 Views
YES. - 06/12/2009 03:34:17 PM 1285 Views
NO - 07/12/2009 08:40:33 PM 1404 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 04/12/2009 10:25:08 PM 1371 Views
Yes, it is worse with movies. Much worse, in fact. - 04/12/2009 10:33:18 PM 1401 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 06/12/2009 09:36:11 AM 1363 Views
Maybe we're different, but I don't care for FX - 06/12/2009 01:37:53 PM 1347 Views
This is not about the personal taste - 07/12/2009 08:50:34 PM 1405 Views
I've obviously missed the show here... - 04/12/2009 12:14:30 AM 1310 Views
I'm not sure that's right. This thing just keeps growing. - 04/12/2009 12:46:24 AM 1430 Views
What, your penis? - 06/12/2009 02:40:09 AM 1372 Views
Don't you know it! - 06/12/2009 03:28:16 PM 1234 Views
You talk the talk, that's for sure. - 07/12/2009 08:14:41 PM 1384 Views
Hate to break it to you... - 07/12/2009 09:54:24 PM 1418 Views
I thought you were gonna tell me... - 08/12/2009 03:07:54 PM 1487 Views
Metaphor versus literalism - 04/12/2009 05:42:03 PM 1405 Views
aha. but. - 07/12/2009 03:56:48 PM 1541 Views
Quoting Nietzsche is really hitting below the belt. - 07/12/2009 09:12:34 PM 1484 Views
It is good I was only paraphrasing, then - 08/12/2009 10:44:14 AM 1373 Views

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