Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure.
Craig Send a noteboard - 02/12/2009 09:40:28 PM
I'm not asking or demanding that you defend yourself or explain your preferences to the message board. You, however, immediately became defensive. That shows that you feel a NEED to defend yourself, which to my mind still means you're insecure about something I said. Perhaps I'm wrong.
Again with the patronizing attempt at psychoanalyzing. Kudos on that. Lemme know how it works out for you.
What you seem to be interpreting as "defensive" is my rejection of your thesis, as I saw it in your original post. Admittedly I didn't go into great detail in my first reply, but I at least thought I'd explained myself better in follow-up posts. Perhaps not, though.
This post was written in defense of other types of fiction as a response to the dialogue going on in the announced post regarding January's book club.
And as I mentioned in my previous post, it reads to me as an attack on one genre rather than a defense of another genre. If you say you didn't intend it as such, then I will certainly believe you - but that interpretation colored my response to the post.
Intellectual achievement and learning is a life-long process that ends only when we die, and reading remains one of the best ways to continue that process. I keep trying to think of other ways that people can effectively continue to learn, but nothing seems as effective as books.
I'm going to have to go with Camilla's response here - seeking out new experiences seems to me an equally valid way of continuing one's "intellectual achievement," for instance. Once again, maybe my disagreement stems from the way I read your post; you seem to be saying that reading - and more, reading the "right things!" - is the only way to grow as a person. That's the part that strikes me as rather "elitist."
I therefore repeat my statement: someone who reads only unchallenging books is stagnating intellectually.
And here's my other primary irritant in your post(s). Clearly this is your belief, and you are 100% entitled to your belief. The fact that you keep repeating your personal opinion, in such derisive terms, as a fact - you seriously don't see why anyone might take umbrage at that?
Whether I make this point by encouraging variety in a positive manner or as a reaction to choices suggested by others and hence by indicting a particular set of choices as bad, the result is the same.
Depends what you mean by "result." If, as you claim, your goal is to encourage people to "read outside the box" - then the result is not the same, because you instead appear to be denigrating a certain category of readers, which is completely counter-productive to your stated goal.
You in your response said essentially that you don't read challenging books and are happy with it. As a result, my last point to which you responded as cited is not an assumption, but rather simply a statement based on the set of facts as you provided them to me. If they are incorrect, it is due to your misrepresentation of your reading habits to me.
I'm afraid it's only based on your misplaced conclusions about my reading habits. I was specifically objecting to your spec-fic-as-fast-food analogy, and rather than inquiring, you seem to have decided to assume that it's because that's all I read is spec-fic. As I've already admitted, I could have made this clearer in my original post - but you also could have simply asked for clarification, rather than making an assumption and arguing based on that.
All that said. I read for enjoyment. It's a leisure activity for me. That doesn't mean that all I read is spec-fic, quite the contrary - I read all genres and formats. Whatever strikes my fancy, be it an epic space opera, the life of Nikola Tesla, the travelogue of a future revolutionary, the Divine Comedy, or some Giants and White Gold Rings. I read what interests me, and sometimes it's good, and sometimes it's just entertaining, and sometimes it's a piece of crap. But I don't read because I feel some obscure need to "better myself intellectually." If you feel that need, and that's why you read what you do, then I can think of no conceivable objection to that. If you think a particular book is Good and Important and that More People Should Read It - you should get the word out, suggest it, tell people that It Is Good! But telling people that what they're reading is nothing but crap - well, don't be surprised when they suddenly don't give a shite about your opinion.
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I am made of poison.
In Support of Other Fiction
01/12/2009 09:06:14 PM
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01/12/2009 09:22:56 PM
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Re:
01/12/2009 09:28:04 PM
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you shouldn't feel the need to defend a non SF/F suggestion, just don't
03/12/2009 03:34:28 PM
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Well, let me offer a diverging view on the topic of speculative fiction.
01/12/2009 09:46:35 PM
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I would counter that the stripping away removes a level of reality.
01/12/2009 10:05:28 PM
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That's a Slippery Slope Because You Could Argue On the Same Basis That All Fiction Does That.
01/12/2009 11:34:34 PM
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I don't see the slippery slope, but rather, a confirmation of my original point.
02/12/2009 01:41:24 AM
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perhaps some university will do a study
03/12/2009 03:55:54 PM
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I'd like to see it
03/12/2009 09:15:12 PM
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I Think I'll Post a Thread on This.
03/12/2009 06:47:05 PM
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I'd like to see it.
03/12/2009 09:23:07 PM
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Regarding depth in Jordan
03/12/2009 09:31:19 PM
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I was thinking about that too
03/12/2009 10:05:40 PM
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Re: I was thinking about that too
03/12/2009 10:09:26 PM
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Destroying the Wheel is meaningless.
03/12/2009 10:18:08 PM
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Re: Destroying the Wheel is meaningless.
03/12/2009 10:30:15 PM
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It would. Destroying the Wheel would likely make him a Buddhist.
03/12/2009 10:51:17 PM
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I Totally Missed That.
04/12/2009 10:45:56 PM
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Re: I Totally Missed That.
04/12/2009 10:47:59 PM
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I Don't Believe It Cursory, But Comparative.
04/12/2009 11:29:36 PM
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Re: Well, let me offer a diverging view on the topic of speculative fiction.
02/12/2009 12:28:30 AM
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I find Michel Houellebecq to be one of the most intriguing writers of our time
01/12/2009 11:14:05 PM
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wait! there's somebody "dirtier" than Piers Anthony or Philip Jose Farmer???
03/12/2009 04:00:28 PM
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Nice post.
02/12/2009 12:03:09 AM
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I guess I'll break my silence after almost a month and a half...
02/12/2009 12:23:07 AM
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Popcorn?
02/12/2009 12:31:44 AM
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I'm glad I could drive you from your Carthusian retreat, Larry
02/12/2009 01:58:49 AM
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It won't last for long - have too many things still to deal with in my life
02/12/2009 02:36:15 AM
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That's too bad. I'll have to learn monasterial sign language to continue a dialogue.
02/12/2009 03:49:01 AM
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I concur
02/12/2009 12:27:13 AM
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I like your framing of the issue (and Shannara is the Taco Bell of writing).
02/12/2009 02:03:51 AM
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Am i the only one who reads books for fun?
02/12/2009 12:33:52 AM
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I certainly didn't read The Lost Symbol for ANY cultural, intellectual or edifying reason.
02/12/2009 02:05:45 AM
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Of course not. Personally, I don't touch anything other than mind candy when I'm in school,
02/12/2009 03:29:23 AM
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one of the things that is important to me in books/shows
03/12/2009 05:20:29 PM
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WoT has decent characterization, though a little overwrought. Harrington... not so much.
04/12/2009 04:26:43 AM
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Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is a science fiction/fantasy movie.
02/12/2009 12:54:08 AM
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Reading only speculative literature is limiting and monotonous.
02/12/2009 02:09:42 AM
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I was going to say exactly that about "real" literature: monotonous and limiting.
02/12/2009 01:57:49 PM
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I would not disagree with you if you said that.
02/12/2009 02:27:08 PM
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Most non-speculative fiction is fluff as well though.
03/12/2009 05:38:32 PM
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Which brings us back to my point.
03/12/2009 08:04:24 PM
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I would like to see the study and statistics that produced this answer.
04/12/2009 05:24:02 PM
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Re: I would like to see the study and statistics that produced this answer.
04/12/2009 10:42:33 PM
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Actually, it is a film that does not fit neatly into one category
02/12/2009 11:16:20 AM
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Science Fiction is the most PERTINANT form of fiction in the world today
02/12/2009 12:57:19 AM
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"Pertinent", not "Pertinant". If it weren't in all caps I'd have ignored it this time.
02/12/2009 02:13:36 AM
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SF&F and 'real literature' are not mutually exclusive
02/12/2009 01:19:05 AM
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So why don't we occasionally focus on "real" books that are technically spec fiction?
02/12/2009 01:25:04 AM
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Why must we limit our focus in that way?
02/12/2009 02:20:11 AM
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I don't see it as limiting or forcing.
02/12/2009 03:16:07 AM
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"Elite club" or "elitist clique"?
02/12/2009 03:52:11 AM
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Elite club is how we midwestern rednecks refer to Elitist Clique. *chews on a piece of hay*
02/12/2009 02:52:01 PM
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I was born in the Midwest.
02/12/2009 03:01:36 PM
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I know.
02/12/2009 03:12:05 PM
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...!
02/12/2009 03:17:57 PM
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Admit it. You know what I'm talking about.
02/12/2009 03:29:31 PM
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Re: Admit it. You know what I'm talking about.
02/12/2009 03:31:26 PM
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Huh! I really didn't think of you as being a masochist.
02/12/2009 01:51:55 AM
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Read what you like to read.
02/12/2009 04:18:53 AM
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I'll super size you. Fine. *NM*
02/12/2009 04:32:58 AM
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Oh noes! I'm getting word-fat!
02/12/2009 04:59:05 AM
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I seem to have struck a nerve.
02/12/2009 05:20:27 AM
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Apparently not the nerve you think, though.
02/12/2009 06:42:02 AM
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Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure.
02/12/2009 02:13:10 PM
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Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure.
02/12/2009 09:40:28 PM
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I really did get under your skin
02/12/2009 09:58:18 PM
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Tom as much as you raise some great points, you are being a condescending ass.
03/12/2009 04:26:27 AM
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You're entitled to your opinion. I don't care.
03/12/2009 04:51:18 AM
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I keep replying. It's like a sickness.
03/12/2009 05:15:28 AM
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Hm.
02/12/2009 06:58:56 AM
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Re-read my exact point.
02/12/2009 02:18:20 PM
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No. Some kind of reading is indeed essential.
02/12/2009 02:28:22 PM
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There may have been an assumption about literature due to the reason for the post.
02/12/2009 02:37:47 PM
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Somehow I get the feeling that this post hasn't caused quite as much controversy
02/12/2009 06:53:18 AM
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As I see it...
02/12/2009 11:38:07 AM
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Yep.
02/12/2009 02:18:22 PM
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Re: Yep.
02/12/2009 03:35:38 PM
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Euripides was poorly received, initially.
02/12/2009 03:57:58 PM
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I wasn't looking to generate controversy
02/12/2009 02:19:13 PM
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Well... then I'm going to have to agree with Craig a bit.
02/12/2009 02:32:59 PM
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Well, I was being somewhat denigrating. "Unnecessarily" or not is a matter of debate.
02/12/2009 02:40:29 PM
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Well, it's only "unnecessary" if you don't want people to be turned off of your message immediately. *NM*
02/12/2009 09:42:46 PM
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Judging from the responses, most people weren't turned off immediately.
02/12/2009 09:59:35 PM
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All reading of fiction is a diversion by the very nature of the activity.
02/12/2009 03:43:05 PM
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Diversion from direct action, yes. Diversion from reality, no.
02/12/2009 04:15:48 PM
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I maintain that all acts of reading fiction are a diversion from reality/ the realistic
02/12/2009 05:43:16 PM
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It seems a regressive argument to me.
03/12/2009 01:18:02 AM
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You're playing a game.
03/12/2009 03:40:14 PM
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I fundamentally agree with much of what you're saying, but there is a distinction.
03/12/2009 06:44:02 PM
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Spec fic is perhaps at it's best in autocracies?
02/12/2009 04:10:56 PM
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Bulgakov
02/12/2009 04:25:17 PM
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I've only read the first chapter of M&M.
02/12/2009 04:36:09 PM
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Re: I've only read the first chapter of M&M.
02/12/2009 04:40:16 PM
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Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me.
02/12/2009 05:17:31 PM
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Re: Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me.
02/12/2009 05:40:16 PM
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I suppose.
02/12/2009 06:26:30 PM
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Re: I suppose.
02/12/2009 07:25:26 PM
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This was something I was exploring earlier.
02/12/2009 04:34:41 PM
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Funny thing about the hivemind antagonist.
02/12/2009 05:13:30 PM
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I didn't see the zombies reading speculative fiction
02/12/2009 05:30:26 PM
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Oh, they prefer Clive Cussler.
02/12/2009 06:23:42 PM
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There's an interesting book in Russian that might be translated somewhere.
02/12/2009 10:02:48 PM
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i think it comes more down to quality than genre.
02/12/2009 04:55:20 PM
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I disagree with the ultimate conclusion but agree with many of your points.
02/12/2009 05:43:04 PM
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the illiad is a classic
02/12/2009 06:35:24 PM
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There's only one "L" in Iliad
02/12/2009 08:18:38 PM
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It took me a few minutes to agree
02/12/2009 07:04:59 PM
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Well, I'm glad if you got something out of the post!
02/12/2009 09:13:26 PM
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Many people have mentioned that there's quite a bit of good sff lit out there and you seem to agree.
02/12/2009 07:33:42 PM
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The website is called "Read and Find Out". It doesn't specify what we're supposed to read.
02/12/2009 08:42:19 PM
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Anti the idea ? I see no evidence for this.
02/12/2009 09:50:37 PM
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Heh
02/12/2009 09:56:30 PM
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I have a few objections.
03/12/2009 12:24:43 AM
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where else should we talk about it?
03/12/2009 12:37:26 AM
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There's a difference between having threads about it and focusing the official book club on it.
03/12/2009 12:40:53 AM
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This is the Sci-Fi and Fantasy Board for site optimization purposes.
03/12/2009 01:07:39 AM
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random thoughts stole my subject line
03/12/2009 01:56:07 AM
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I think I could agree with a "comfort food" analogy
03/12/2009 02:12:01 AM
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That's it
03/12/2009 04:02:28 AM
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Question: is it really science fiction without one of the following:
03/12/2009 05:13:21 AM
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technically speaking, fantasy is classed as a sub heading under science fiction. *NM*
03/12/2009 02:51:12 PM
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Yes, it is but actually...
03/12/2009 09:31:44 PM
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But Dan Brown rocks da house!!!
*NM*
03/12/2009 02:16:47 AM
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another thing wrong with your argument
03/12/2009 03:30:19 PM
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Absolutely not. And, as I said before, there's only one "L" in Iliad.
03/12/2009 06:53:35 PM
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sorry about my atrocious spelling
(including the one on pertinent)
03/12/2009 07:14:59 PM
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is it just me, or is this now the largest post/thread yet on RAFO.com??? 168 replies so far! *NM*
03/12/2009 05:03:25 PM
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Congratulations on the replies count
03/12/2009 09:30:41 PM
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That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree.
03/12/2009 10:50:29 PM
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Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree.
04/12/2009 07:44:56 PM
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But the objective truth of a setting can be measured.
04/12/2009 10:37:10 PM
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But does it make any difference in the objective value of the book?
06/12/2009 09:35:59 AM
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Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree.
04/12/2009 10:25:08 PM
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Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree.
06/12/2009 09:36:11 AM
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I've obviously missed the show here...
04/12/2009 12:14:30 AM
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I'm not sure that's right. This thing just keeps growing.
04/12/2009 12:46:24 AM
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What, your penis?
06/12/2009 02:40:09 AM
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Don't you know it!
06/12/2009 03:28:16 PM
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You talk the talk, that's for sure.
07/12/2009 08:14:41 PM
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Metaphor versus literalism
04/12/2009 05:42:03 PM
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Metaphor divorced from the reality runs risks, however.
04/12/2009 10:25:47 PM
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Honestly, the moral can always be dismissed as inapplicable if you want to dismiss it.
05/12/2009 12:16:39 AM
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While that's true, it's much harder to just dismiss Mockingbird.
05/12/2009 03:57:42 AM
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Then why read fiction at all? It's all a diversion.
05/12/2009 04:16:06 PM
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I think people should read non-fiction, and The Nine Hundred Days is an excellent book.
05/12/2009 04:41:50 PM
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aha. but.
07/12/2009 03:56:48 PM
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