Active Users:1644 Time:21/10/2025 12:04:21 AM
Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. Craig Send a noteboard - 02/12/2009 09:40:28 PM
I'm not asking or demanding that you defend yourself or explain your preferences to the message board. You, however, immediately became defensive. That shows that you feel a NEED to defend yourself, which to my mind still means you're insecure about something I said. Perhaps I'm wrong.

Again with the patronizing attempt at psychoanalyzing. Kudos on that. Lemme know how it works out for you.

What you seem to be interpreting as "defensive" is my rejection of your thesis, as I saw it in your original post. Admittedly I didn't go into great detail in my first reply, but I at least thought I'd explained myself better in follow-up posts. Perhaps not, though.

This post was written in defense of other types of fiction as a response to the dialogue going on in the announced post regarding January's book club.

And as I mentioned in my previous post, it reads to me as an attack on one genre rather than a defense of another genre. If you say you didn't intend it as such, then I will certainly believe you - but that interpretation colored my response to the post.

Intellectual achievement and learning is a life-long process that ends only when we die, and reading remains one of the best ways to continue that process. I keep trying to think of other ways that people can effectively continue to learn, but nothing seems as effective as books.

I'm going to have to go with Camilla's response here - seeking out new experiences seems to me an equally valid way of continuing one's "intellectual achievement," for instance. Once again, maybe my disagreement stems from the way I read your post; you seem to be saying that reading - and more, reading the "right things!" - is the only way to grow as a person. That's the part that strikes me as rather "elitist."

I therefore repeat my statement: someone who reads only unchallenging books is stagnating intellectually.

And here's my other primary irritant in your post(s). Clearly this is your belief, and you are 100% entitled to your belief. The fact that you keep repeating your personal opinion, in such derisive terms, as a fact - you seriously don't see why anyone might take umbrage at that?

Whether I make this point by encouraging variety in a positive manner or as a reaction to choices suggested by others and hence by indicting a particular set of choices as bad, the result is the same.

Depends what you mean by "result." If, as you claim, your goal is to encourage people to "read outside the box" - then the result is not the same, because you instead appear to be denigrating a certain category of readers, which is completely counter-productive to your stated goal.

You in your response said essentially that you don't read challenging books and are happy with it. As a result, my last point to which you responded as cited is not an assumption, but rather simply a statement based on the set of facts as you provided them to me. If they are incorrect, it is due to your misrepresentation of your reading habits to me.

I'm afraid it's only based on your misplaced conclusions about my reading habits. I was specifically objecting to your spec-fic-as-fast-food analogy, and rather than inquiring, you seem to have decided to assume that it's because that's all I read is spec-fic. As I've already admitted, I could have made this clearer in my original post - but you also could have simply asked for clarification, rather than making an assumption and arguing based on that.


All that said. I read for enjoyment. It's a leisure activity for me. That doesn't mean that all I read is spec-fic, quite the contrary - I read all genres and formats. Whatever strikes my fancy, be it an epic space opera, the life of Nikola Tesla, the travelogue of a future revolutionary, the Divine Comedy, or some Giants and White Gold Rings. I read what interests me, and sometimes it's good, and sometimes it's just entertaining, and sometimes it's a piece of crap. But I don't read because I feel some obscure need to "better myself intellectually." If you feel that need, and that's why you read what you do, then I can think of no conceivable objection to that. If you think a particular book is Good and Important and that More People Should Read It - you should get the word out, suggest it, tell people that It Is Good! But telling people that what they're reading is nothing but crap - well, don't be surprised when they suddenly don't give a shite about your opinion. :)
I am made of poison.
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In Support of Other Fiction - 01/12/2009 09:06:14 PM 2272 Views
- 01/12/2009 09:22:56 PM 1322 Views
Re: - 01/12/2009 09:28:04 PM 1310 Views
Wow...we were just Santified *NM* - 03/12/2009 09:16:21 PM 670 Views
Well, let me offer a diverging view on the topic of speculative fiction. - 01/12/2009 09:46:35 PM 1239 Views
I would counter that the stripping away removes a level of reality. - 01/12/2009 10:05:28 PM 1330 Views
That's a Slippery Slope Because You Could Argue On the Same Basis That All Fiction Does That. - 01/12/2009 11:34:34 PM 1369 Views
I don't see the slippery slope, but rather, a confirmation of my original point. - 02/12/2009 01:41:24 AM 1308 Views
perhaps some university will do a study - 03/12/2009 03:55:54 PM 1291 Views
I'd like to see it - 03/12/2009 09:15:12 PM 1327 Views
I'll get to it once I finish my thesis - 03/12/2009 09:56:29 PM 1260 Views
If it looks like crap and smells like crap... - 03/12/2009 10:04:15 PM 1291 Views
I Think I'll Post a Thread on This. - 03/12/2009 06:47:05 PM 1245 Views
I'd like to see it. - 03/12/2009 09:23:07 PM 1291 Views
Regarding depth in Jordan - 03/12/2009 09:31:19 PM 1264 Views
I was thinking about that too - 03/12/2009 10:05:40 PM 1270 Views
Re: I was thinking about that too - 03/12/2009 10:09:26 PM 1354 Views
Destroying the Wheel is meaningless. - 03/12/2009 10:18:08 PM 1240 Views
Re: Destroying the Wheel is meaningless. - 03/12/2009 10:30:15 PM 1286 Views
I Totally Missed That. - 04/12/2009 10:45:56 PM 1346 Views
Re: I Totally Missed That. - 04/12/2009 10:47:59 PM 1330 Views
I Don't Believe It Cursory, But Comparative. - 04/12/2009 11:29:36 PM 1430 Views
Publication bookend Y2K? - 05/12/2009 10:36:01 AM 1322 Views
They're Thick Bookends. - 05/12/2009 06:12:06 PM 1268 Views
I'll Try to Have It Up Tomorrow Early. - 04/12/2009 11:24:18 PM 1357 Views
I like it. - 01/12/2009 10:28:48 PM 1282 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 01:43:05 AM 1432 Views
I find Michel Houellebecq to be one of the most intriguing writers of our time - 01/12/2009 11:14:05 PM 1365 Views
And, in recent memory, Orwell was a first-rate writer. - 02/12/2009 01:44:29 AM 1356 Views
wait! there's somebody "dirtier" than Piers Anthony or Philip Jose Farmer??? - 03/12/2009 04:00:28 PM 1328 Views
PJF is dirty? - 04/12/2009 12:16:12 AM 1205 Views
Nice post. - 02/12/2009 12:03:09 AM 1376 Views
Perhaps you're right. - 02/12/2009 01:47:10 AM 1258 Views
In its entirety? No. - 02/12/2009 02:00:10 PM 1294 Views
I agree! - 02/12/2009 12:17:10 AM 1559 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 01:50:22 AM 1217 Views
I guess I'll break my silence after almost a month and a half... - 02/12/2009 12:23:07 AM 1391 Views
Popcorn? - 02/12/2009 12:31:44 AM 1322 Views
Yes - 02/12/2009 12:39:10 AM 1365 Views
Lovecraft? - 02/12/2009 12:51:55 AM 1347 Views
Re-read what I said - 02/12/2009 12:55:08 AM 1406 Views
aahh - 02/12/2009 09:26:40 AM 1269 Views
Larry, please tell me you weren't... - 03/12/2009 04:33:32 PM 1142 Views
I concur - 02/12/2009 12:27:13 AM 1262 Views
I like your framing of the issue (and Shannara is the Taco Bell of writing). - 02/12/2009 02:03:51 AM 1337 Views
Thank you - 02/12/2009 09:30:42 AM 1268 Views
more like the mom&pop greasy-spoon diner of writing *NM* - 03/12/2009 05:00:21 PM 606 Views
I'm going to put this in my sig, if you don't mind. - 02/12/2009 03:31:13 AM 1325 Views
hehehe - 02/12/2009 09:31:28 AM 1211 Views
Am i the only one who reads books for fun? - 02/12/2009 12:33:52 AM 1368 Views
There isn't necessarily a contradiction - 02/12/2009 12:38:43 AM 1353 Views
I certainly didn't read The Lost Symbol for ANY cultural, intellectual or edifying reason. - 02/12/2009 02:05:45 AM 1267 Views
it didn't come across that way - 03/12/2009 05:15:36 PM 1288 Views
Of course not. Personally, I don't touch anything other than mind candy when I'm in school, - 02/12/2009 03:29:23 AM 1253 Views
one of the things that is important to me in books/shows - 03/12/2009 05:20:29 PM 1187 Views
We agree! - 03/12/2009 08:03:00 PM 1265 Views
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is a science fiction/fantasy movie. - 02/12/2009 12:54:08 AM 1329 Views
i was gonna point that out. thnks. *NM* - 02/12/2009 01:13:47 AM 564 Views
Reading only speculative literature is limiting and monotonous. - 02/12/2009 02:09:42 AM 1362 Views
I was going to say exactly that about "real" literature: monotonous and limiting. - 02/12/2009 01:57:49 PM 1297 Views
I think his point was that only SF/F wasn't good food. - 02/12/2009 02:15:29 PM 1266 Views
I would not disagree with you if you said that. - 02/12/2009 02:27:08 PM 1202 Views
Most non-speculative fiction is fluff as well though. - 03/12/2009 05:38:32 PM 1178 Views
hear hear!! I agree totally wert-man - 03/12/2009 07:20:09 PM 1256 Views
Which brings us back to my point. - 03/12/2009 08:04:24 PM 1314 Views
Actually, it is a film that does not fit neatly into one category - 02/12/2009 11:16:20 AM 1321 Views
Science Fiction is the most PERTINANT form of fiction in the world today - 02/12/2009 12:57:19 AM 1296 Views
don't get me wrong - 02/12/2009 01:28:08 AM 1287 Views
SF&F and 'real literature' are not mutually exclusive - 02/12/2009 01:19:05 AM 1276 Views
No, they are not - 02/12/2009 02:18:53 AM 1262 Views
This line is a load of bull - 03/12/2009 02:39:53 PM 1387 Views
So why don't we occasionally focus on "real" books that are technically spec fiction? - 02/12/2009 01:25:04 AM 1237 Views
Why must we limit our focus in that way? - 02/12/2009 02:20:11 AM 1229 Views
I don't see it as limiting or forcing. - 02/12/2009 03:16:07 AM 1242 Views
"Elite club" or "elitist clique"? - 02/12/2009 03:52:11 AM 1236 Views
Either way, I want in. *NM* - 02/12/2009 11:33:52 AM 659 Views
Elite club is how we midwestern rednecks refer to Elitist Clique. *chews on a piece of hay* - 02/12/2009 02:52:01 PM 1396 Views
I was born in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:01:36 PM 1282 Views
I know. - 02/12/2009 03:12:05 PM 1229 Views
Green Acres in reverse, eh? - 02/12/2009 03:38:09 PM 1271 Views
lmao - 02/12/2009 06:21:17 PM 1419 Views
*piledrivers you* - 02/12/2009 06:28:02 PM 1199 Views
...! - 02/12/2009 03:17:57 PM 1227 Views
Admit it. You know what I'm talking about. - 02/12/2009 03:29:31 PM 1267 Views
Re: Admit it. You know what I'm talking about. - 02/12/2009 03:31:26 PM 1202 Views
Vermont isn't in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:39:36 PM 1213 Views
Re: Vermont isn't in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:42:47 PM 1242 Views
Huh! I really didn't think of you as being a masochist. - 02/12/2009 01:51:55 AM 1229 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 02:21:00 AM 1133 Views
Shitstorm! - 02/12/2009 03:06:59 AM 1191 Views
Heh heh heh. - 02/12/2009 03:45:40 AM 1252 Views
Read what you like to read. - 02/12/2009 04:18:53 AM 1333 Views
I'll super size you. Fine. *NM* - 02/12/2009 04:32:58 AM 613 Views
Oh noes! I'm getting word-fat! - 02/12/2009 04:59:05 AM 1241 Views
I seem to have struck a nerve. - 02/12/2009 05:20:27 AM 1276 Views
Apparently not the nerve you think, though. - 02/12/2009 06:42:02 AM 1353 Views
Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 02:13:10 PM 1250 Views
Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 03:26:59 PM 1282 Views
Agreed. - 02/12/2009 03:30:50 PM 1183 Views
Re: Agreed. - 02/12/2009 03:32:06 PM 1188 Views
Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 09:40:28 PM 1333 Views
I really did get under your skin - 02/12/2009 09:58:18 PM 1182 Views
- 02/12/2009 10:06:46 PM 1174 Views
Tom as much as you raise some great points, you are being a condescending ass. - 03/12/2009 04:26:27 AM 1257 Views
You're entitled to your opinion. I don't care. - 03/12/2009 04:51:18 AM 1212 Views
I keep replying. It's like a sickness. - 03/12/2009 05:15:28 AM 1230 Views
Your subject line reinforces my opinion. - 03/12/2009 05:31:50 AM 1156 Views
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room. *NM* - 03/12/2009 07:21:05 AM 608 Views
LOL! - 04/12/2009 12:21:36 AM 1207 Views
See, you just proved my point. - 04/12/2009 12:39:59 AM 1258 Views
Hm. - 02/12/2009 06:58:56 AM 1839 Views
Re-read my exact point. - 02/12/2009 02:18:20 PM 1199 Views
No. Some kind of reading is indeed essential. - 02/12/2009 02:28:22 PM 1338 Views
Somehow I get the feeling that this post hasn't caused quite as much controversy - 02/12/2009 06:53:18 AM 1356 Views
As I see it... - 02/12/2009 11:38:07 AM 1241 Views
Yep. - 02/12/2009 02:18:22 PM 1391 Views
Re: Yep. - 02/12/2009 03:35:38 PM 1259 Views
Euripides was poorly received, initially. - 02/12/2009 03:57:58 PM 1176 Views
Re: Euripides was poorly received, initially. - 02/12/2009 04:00:35 PM 1198 Views
I know. - 02/12/2009 04:18:16 PM 1255 Views
Re: I know. - 02/12/2009 04:23:14 PM 1196 Views
That is why he's so good, in my opinion. - 02/12/2009 06:15:45 PM 1362 Views
All reading of fiction is a diversion by the very nature of the activity. - 02/12/2009 03:43:05 PM 1229 Views
Diversion from direct action, yes. Diversion from reality, no. - 02/12/2009 04:15:48 PM 1206 Views
I maintain that all acts of reading fiction are a diversion from reality/ the realistic - 02/12/2009 05:43:16 PM 1226 Views
It seems a regressive argument to me. - 03/12/2009 01:18:02 AM 1180 Views
You're playing a game. - 03/12/2009 03:40:14 PM 1274 Views
I like your response. *NM* - 03/12/2009 05:37:09 PM 580 Views
I fundamentally agree with much of what you're saying, but there is a distinction. - 03/12/2009 06:44:02 PM 1262 Views
Oh I concur on that distinction. - 04/12/2009 09:06:34 PM 1297 Views
Spec fic is perhaps at it's best in autocracies? - 02/12/2009 04:10:56 PM 1165 Views
Bulgakov - 02/12/2009 04:25:17 PM 1258 Views
I've only read the first chapter of M&M. - 02/12/2009 04:36:09 PM 1234 Views
Re: I've only read the first chapter of M&M. - 02/12/2009 04:40:16 PM 1148 Views
Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me. - 02/12/2009 05:17:31 PM 1189 Views
Re: Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me. - 02/12/2009 05:40:16 PM 1248 Views
I suppose. - 02/12/2009 06:26:30 PM 1248 Views
Re: I suppose. - 02/12/2009 07:25:26 PM 1250 Views
Well, I don't hold escapism in such low esteem *NM* - 02/12/2009 07:56:13 PM 609 Views
That is what I mean - 02/12/2009 08:36:02 PM 1180 Views
This was something I was exploring earlier. - 02/12/2009 04:34:41 PM 1291 Views
Funny thing about the hivemind antagonist. - 02/12/2009 05:13:30 PM 1242 Views
I didn't see the zombies reading speculative fiction - 02/12/2009 05:30:26 PM 1320 Views
Oh, they prefer Clive Cussler. - 02/12/2009 06:23:42 PM 1299 Views
i think it comes more down to quality than genre. - 02/12/2009 04:55:20 PM 1267 Views
I disagree with the ultimate conclusion but agree with many of your points. - 02/12/2009 05:43:04 PM 1222 Views
the illiad is a classic - 02/12/2009 06:35:24 PM 1244 Views
There's only one "L" in Iliad - 02/12/2009 08:18:38 PM 1210 Views
Is there a safe answer to that question? *NM* - 02/12/2009 10:33:21 PM 630 Views
Maybe not. *NM* - 03/12/2009 12:59:09 AM 601 Views
It took me a few minutes to agree - 02/12/2009 07:04:59 PM 1215 Views
Well, I'm glad if you got something out of the post! - 02/12/2009 09:13:26 PM 1240 Views
Re: Well, I'm glad if you got something out of the post! - 02/12/2009 09:20:49 PM 1196 Views
I don't know. I've only read about 30 pages so far. *NM* - 02/12/2009 10:05:54 PM 647 Views
Many people have mentioned that there's quite a bit of good sff lit out there and you seem to agree. - 02/12/2009 07:33:42 PM 1331 Views
Hmmm - 02/12/2009 08:40:53 PM 1210 Views
Re: Hmmm - 02/12/2009 10:48:02 PM 1236 Views
The website is called "Read and Find Out". It doesn't specify what we're supposed to read. - 02/12/2009 08:42:19 PM 1299 Views
Anti the idea ? I see no evidence for this. - 02/12/2009 09:50:37 PM 1253 Views
Heh - 02/12/2009 09:56:30 PM 1253 Views
What do you mean ? Almost all the repliers agree with Tom - 03/12/2009 11:01:08 AM 1223 Views
Re: What do you mean ? Almost all the repliers agree with Tom - 03/12/2009 11:10:35 AM 1261 Views
I see. You don't read announcements. - 03/12/2009 11:12:04 AM 1201 Views
No, but it does bill itself as science fiction/fantasy. - 02/12/2009 10:51:41 PM 1342 Views
Yes. - 03/12/2009 12:01:30 AM 1328 Views
I think Rebekah and Camilla put it well. - 02/12/2009 10:05:24 PM 1338 Views
I think they make good points, as I said above. - 02/12/2009 10:56:55 PM 1203 Views
I agree with in principle - 02/12/2009 11:22:19 PM 1173 Views
Certainly. People are free to skip any discussion. - 03/12/2009 01:01:40 AM 1319 Views
I have a few objections. - 03/12/2009 12:24:43 AM 1287 Views
where else should we talk about it? - 03/12/2009 12:37:26 AM 1212 Views
random thoughts stole my subject line - 03/12/2009 01:56:07 AM 1290 Views
I think I could agree with a "comfort food" analogy - 03/12/2009 02:12:01 AM 1280 Views
Re: I think I could agree with a "comfort food" analogy - 03/12/2009 02:38:17 AM 1338 Views
That's it - 03/12/2009 04:02:28 AM 1354 Views
Question: is it really science fiction without one of the following: - 03/12/2009 05:13:21 AM 1255 Views
Certainly - 03/12/2009 06:13:38 AM 1323 Views
technically speaking, fantasy is classed as a sub heading under science fiction. *NM* - 03/12/2009 02:51:12 PM 530 Views
According to whom? *NM* - 03/12/2009 03:55:45 PM 655 Views
Yeah. What she asked! *NM* - 03/12/2009 09:23:55 PM 643 Views
Yes, it is but actually... - 03/12/2009 09:31:44 PM 1254 Views
Eternal Sunshine doesn't have a mad scientist. - 03/12/2009 10:09:01 PM 1181 Views
Really? - 04/12/2009 07:01:42 PM 1215 Views
But Dan Brown rocks da house!!! *NM* - 03/12/2009 02:16:47 AM 635 Views
*pumps fist* Give it up for Dan Brown! *NM* - 03/12/2009 03:58:23 AM 645 Views
That's Dan "booyah" Brown!!! Booyah!!! *NM* - 04/12/2009 02:00:56 AM 633 Views
another thing wrong with your argument - 03/12/2009 03:30:19 PM 1244 Views
Absolutely not. And, as I said before, there's only one "L" in Iliad. - 03/12/2009 06:53:35 PM 1059 Views
sorry about my atrocious spelling (including the one on pertinent) - 03/12/2009 07:14:59 PM 1364 Views
No problem. On the substantive points: - 03/12/2009 08:00:33 PM 1289 Views
more importantly, which I think it being lost in all this, - 03/12/2009 08:05:27 PM 1256 Views
I'm not reading the Iliad again, once was enough - 04/12/2009 12:19:07 PM 1211 Views
Congratulations on the replies count - 03/12/2009 09:30:41 PM 1360 Views
That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 03/12/2009 10:50:29 PM 1272 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 04/12/2009 07:44:56 PM 1310 Views
But the objective truth of a setting can be measured. - 04/12/2009 10:37:10 PM 1218 Views
But does it make any difference in the objective value of the book? - 06/12/2009 09:35:59 AM 1397 Views
YES. - 06/12/2009 03:34:17 PM 1159 Views
NO - 07/12/2009 08:40:33 PM 1267 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 04/12/2009 10:25:08 PM 1247 Views
Yes, it is worse with movies. Much worse, in fact. - 04/12/2009 10:33:18 PM 1277 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 06/12/2009 09:36:11 AM 1232 Views
Maybe we're different, but I don't care for FX - 06/12/2009 01:37:53 PM 1195 Views
This is not about the personal taste - 07/12/2009 08:50:34 PM 1288 Views
I've obviously missed the show here... - 04/12/2009 12:14:30 AM 1195 Views
I'm not sure that's right. This thing just keeps growing. - 04/12/2009 12:46:24 AM 1311 Views
What, your penis? - 06/12/2009 02:40:09 AM 1217 Views
Don't you know it! - 06/12/2009 03:28:16 PM 1107 Views
You talk the talk, that's for sure. - 07/12/2009 08:14:41 PM 1255 Views
Hate to break it to you... - 07/12/2009 09:54:24 PM 1310 Views
I thought you were gonna tell me... - 08/12/2009 03:07:54 PM 1366 Views
Metaphor versus literalism - 04/12/2009 05:42:03 PM 1286 Views
aha. but. - 07/12/2009 03:56:48 PM 1413 Views
Quoting Nietzsche is really hitting below the belt. - 07/12/2009 09:12:34 PM 1346 Views
It is good I was only paraphrasing, then - 08/12/2009 10:44:14 AM 1241 Views

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