Active Users:464 Time:15/02/2025 05:41:09 PM
Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. Craig Send a noteboard - 02/12/2009 09:40:28 PM
I'm not asking or demanding that you defend yourself or explain your preferences to the message board. You, however, immediately became defensive. That shows that you feel a NEED to defend yourself, which to my mind still means you're insecure about something I said. Perhaps I'm wrong.

Again with the patronizing attempt at psychoanalyzing. Kudos on that. Lemme know how it works out for you.

What you seem to be interpreting as "defensive" is my rejection of your thesis, as I saw it in your original post. Admittedly I didn't go into great detail in my first reply, but I at least thought I'd explained myself better in follow-up posts. Perhaps not, though.

This post was written in defense of other types of fiction as a response to the dialogue going on in the announced post regarding January's book club.

And as I mentioned in my previous post, it reads to me as an attack on one genre rather than a defense of another genre. If you say you didn't intend it as such, then I will certainly believe you - but that interpretation colored my response to the post.

Intellectual achievement and learning is a life-long process that ends only when we die, and reading remains one of the best ways to continue that process. I keep trying to think of other ways that people can effectively continue to learn, but nothing seems as effective as books.

I'm going to have to go with Camilla's response here - seeking out new experiences seems to me an equally valid way of continuing one's "intellectual achievement," for instance. Once again, maybe my disagreement stems from the way I read your post; you seem to be saying that reading - and more, reading the "right things!" - is the only way to grow as a person. That's the part that strikes me as rather "elitist."

I therefore repeat my statement: someone who reads only unchallenging books is stagnating intellectually.

And here's my other primary irritant in your post(s). Clearly this is your belief, and you are 100% entitled to your belief. The fact that you keep repeating your personal opinion, in such derisive terms, as a fact - you seriously don't see why anyone might take umbrage at that?

Whether I make this point by encouraging variety in a positive manner or as a reaction to choices suggested by others and hence by indicting a particular set of choices as bad, the result is the same.

Depends what you mean by "result." If, as you claim, your goal is to encourage people to "read outside the box" - then the result is not the same, because you instead appear to be denigrating a certain category of readers, which is completely counter-productive to your stated goal.

You in your response said essentially that you don't read challenging books and are happy with it. As a result, my last point to which you responded as cited is not an assumption, but rather simply a statement based on the set of facts as you provided them to me. If they are incorrect, it is due to your misrepresentation of your reading habits to me.

I'm afraid it's only based on your misplaced conclusions about my reading habits. I was specifically objecting to your spec-fic-as-fast-food analogy, and rather than inquiring, you seem to have decided to assume that it's because that's all I read is spec-fic. As I've already admitted, I could have made this clearer in my original post - but you also could have simply asked for clarification, rather than making an assumption and arguing based on that.


All that said. I read for enjoyment. It's a leisure activity for me. That doesn't mean that all I read is spec-fic, quite the contrary - I read all genres and formats. Whatever strikes my fancy, be it an epic space opera, the life of Nikola Tesla, the travelogue of a future revolutionary, the Divine Comedy, or some Giants and White Gold Rings. I read what interests me, and sometimes it's good, and sometimes it's just entertaining, and sometimes it's a piece of crap. But I don't read because I feel some obscure need to "better myself intellectually." If you feel that need, and that's why you read what you do, then I can think of no conceivable objection to that. If you think a particular book is Good and Important and that More People Should Read It - you should get the word out, suggest it, tell people that It Is Good! But telling people that what they're reading is nothing but crap - well, don't be surprised when they suddenly don't give a shite about your opinion. :)
I am made of poison.
Reply to message
In Support of Other Fiction - 01/12/2009 09:06:14 PM 2132 Views
- 01/12/2009 09:22:56 PM 1203 Views
Re: - 01/12/2009 09:28:04 PM 1186 Views
Wow...we were just Santified *NM* - 03/12/2009 09:16:21 PM 597 Views
Well, let me offer a diverging view on the topic of speculative fiction. - 01/12/2009 09:46:35 PM 1113 Views
I would counter that the stripping away removes a level of reality. - 01/12/2009 10:05:28 PM 1213 Views
That's a Slippery Slope Because You Could Argue On the Same Basis That All Fiction Does That. - 01/12/2009 11:34:34 PM 1243 Views
I don't see the slippery slope, but rather, a confirmation of my original point. - 02/12/2009 01:41:24 AM 1194 Views
perhaps some university will do a study - 03/12/2009 03:55:54 PM 1158 Views
I'd like to see it - 03/12/2009 09:15:12 PM 1209 Views
I'll get to it once I finish my thesis - 03/12/2009 09:56:29 PM 1143 Views
If it looks like crap and smells like crap... - 03/12/2009 10:04:15 PM 1167 Views
I Think I'll Post a Thread on This. - 03/12/2009 06:47:05 PM 1124 Views
I'd like to see it. - 03/12/2009 09:23:07 PM 1175 Views
Regarding depth in Jordan - 03/12/2009 09:31:19 PM 1142 Views
I was thinking about that too - 03/12/2009 10:05:40 PM 1141 Views
Re: I was thinking about that too - 03/12/2009 10:09:26 PM 1243 Views
Destroying the Wheel is meaningless. - 03/12/2009 10:18:08 PM 1136 Views
Re: Destroying the Wheel is meaningless. - 03/12/2009 10:30:15 PM 1169 Views
I Totally Missed That. - 04/12/2009 10:45:56 PM 1222 Views
Re: I Totally Missed That. - 04/12/2009 10:47:59 PM 1213 Views
I Don't Believe It Cursory, But Comparative. - 04/12/2009 11:29:36 PM 1293 Views
Publication bookend Y2K? - 05/12/2009 10:36:01 AM 1215 Views
They're Thick Bookends. - 05/12/2009 06:12:06 PM 1156 Views
I'll Try to Have It Up Tomorrow Early. - 04/12/2009 11:24:18 PM 1243 Views
I like it. - 01/12/2009 10:28:48 PM 1166 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 01:43:05 AM 1315 Views
I find Michel Houellebecq to be one of the most intriguing writers of our time - 01/12/2009 11:14:05 PM 1254 Views
And, in recent memory, Orwell was a first-rate writer. - 02/12/2009 01:44:29 AM 1243 Views
wait! there's somebody "dirtier" than Piers Anthony or Philip Jose Farmer??? - 03/12/2009 04:00:28 PM 1219 Views
PJF is dirty? - 04/12/2009 12:16:12 AM 1083 Views
Nice post. - 02/12/2009 12:03:09 AM 1268 Views
Perhaps you're right. - 02/12/2009 01:47:10 AM 1125 Views
In its entirety? No. - 02/12/2009 02:00:10 PM 1171 Views
I agree! - 02/12/2009 12:17:10 AM 1376 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 01:50:22 AM 1088 Views
I guess I'll break my silence after almost a month and a half... - 02/12/2009 12:23:07 AM 1272 Views
Popcorn? - 02/12/2009 12:31:44 AM 1202 Views
Yes - 02/12/2009 12:39:10 AM 1237 Views
Lovecraft? - 02/12/2009 12:51:55 AM 1234 Views
Re-read what I said - 02/12/2009 12:55:08 AM 1293 Views
aahh - 02/12/2009 09:26:40 AM 1158 Views
Larry, please tell me you weren't... - 03/12/2009 04:33:32 PM 1024 Views
I concur - 02/12/2009 12:27:13 AM 1126 Views
I like your framing of the issue (and Shannara is the Taco Bell of writing). - 02/12/2009 02:03:51 AM 1207 Views
Thank you - 02/12/2009 09:30:42 AM 1145 Views
more like the mom&pop greasy-spoon diner of writing *NM* - 03/12/2009 05:00:21 PM 553 Views
I'm going to put this in my sig, if you don't mind. - 02/12/2009 03:31:13 AM 1219 Views
hehehe - 02/12/2009 09:31:28 AM 1100 Views
Am i the only one who reads books for fun? - 02/12/2009 12:33:52 AM 1250 Views
There isn't necessarily a contradiction - 02/12/2009 12:38:43 AM 1198 Views
I certainly didn't read The Lost Symbol for ANY cultural, intellectual or edifying reason. - 02/12/2009 02:05:45 AM 1154 Views
it didn't come across that way - 03/12/2009 05:15:36 PM 1176 Views
Of course not. Personally, I don't touch anything other than mind candy when I'm in school, - 02/12/2009 03:29:23 AM 1122 Views
one of the things that is important to me in books/shows - 03/12/2009 05:20:29 PM 1068 Views
We agree! - 03/12/2009 08:03:00 PM 1153 Views
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is a science fiction/fantasy movie. - 02/12/2009 12:54:08 AM 1217 Views
i was gonna point that out. thnks. *NM* - 02/12/2009 01:13:47 AM 503 Views
Reading only speculative literature is limiting and monotonous. - 02/12/2009 02:09:42 AM 1244 Views
I was going to say exactly that about "real" literature: monotonous and limiting. - 02/12/2009 01:57:49 PM 1156 Views
I think his point was that only SF/F wasn't good food. - 02/12/2009 02:15:29 PM 1138 Views
I would not disagree with you if you said that. - 02/12/2009 02:27:08 PM 1082 Views
Most non-speculative fiction is fluff as well though. - 03/12/2009 05:38:32 PM 1086 Views
hear hear!! I agree totally wert-man - 03/12/2009 07:20:09 PM 1139 Views
Which brings us back to my point. - 03/12/2009 08:04:24 PM 1197 Views
Actually, it is a film that does not fit neatly into one category - 02/12/2009 11:16:20 AM 1209 Views
Science Fiction is the most PERTINANT form of fiction in the world today - 02/12/2009 12:57:19 AM 1153 Views
don't get me wrong - 02/12/2009 01:28:08 AM 1181 Views
SF&F and 'real literature' are not mutually exclusive - 02/12/2009 01:19:05 AM 1141 Views
No, they are not - 02/12/2009 02:18:53 AM 1154 Views
This line is a load of bull - 03/12/2009 02:39:53 PM 1263 Views
So why don't we occasionally focus on "real" books that are technically spec fiction? - 02/12/2009 01:25:04 AM 1116 Views
Why must we limit our focus in that way? - 02/12/2009 02:20:11 AM 1123 Views
I don't see it as limiting or forcing. - 02/12/2009 03:16:07 AM 1132 Views
"Elite club" or "elitist clique"? - 02/12/2009 03:52:11 AM 1116 Views
Either way, I want in. *NM* - 02/12/2009 11:33:52 AM 593 Views
Elite club is how we midwestern rednecks refer to Elitist Clique. *chews on a piece of hay* - 02/12/2009 02:52:01 PM 1275 Views
I was born in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:01:36 PM 1174 Views
I know. - 02/12/2009 03:12:05 PM 1110 Views
Green Acres in reverse, eh? - 02/12/2009 03:38:09 PM 1153 Views
lmao - 02/12/2009 06:21:17 PM 1305 Views
*piledrivers you* - 02/12/2009 06:28:02 PM 1087 Views
...! - 02/12/2009 03:17:57 PM 1122 Views
Admit it. You know what I'm talking about. - 02/12/2009 03:29:31 PM 1140 Views
Re: Admit it. You know what I'm talking about. - 02/12/2009 03:31:26 PM 1089 Views
Vermont isn't in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:39:36 PM 1091 Views
Re: Vermont isn't in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:42:47 PM 1144 Views
Huh! I really didn't think of you as being a masochist. - 02/12/2009 01:51:55 AM 1114 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 02:21:00 AM 1015 Views
Shitstorm! - 02/12/2009 03:06:59 AM 1080 Views
Heh heh heh. - 02/12/2009 03:45:40 AM 1132 Views
Read what you like to read. - 02/12/2009 04:18:53 AM 1211 Views
I'll super size you. Fine. *NM* - 02/12/2009 04:32:58 AM 556 Views
Oh noes! I'm getting word-fat! - 02/12/2009 04:59:05 AM 1131 Views
I seem to have struck a nerve. - 02/12/2009 05:20:27 AM 1165 Views
Apparently not the nerve you think, though. - 02/12/2009 06:42:02 AM 1237 Views
Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 02:13:10 PM 1129 Views
Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 03:26:59 PM 1160 Views
Agreed. - 02/12/2009 03:30:50 PM 1080 Views
Re: Agreed. - 02/12/2009 03:32:06 PM 1077 Views
Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 09:40:28 PM 1202 Views
I really did get under your skin - 02/12/2009 09:58:18 PM 1069 Views
- 02/12/2009 10:06:46 PM 1069 Views
Tom as much as you raise some great points, you are being a condescending ass. - 03/12/2009 04:26:27 AM 1136 Views
You're entitled to your opinion. I don't care. - 03/12/2009 04:51:18 AM 1100 Views
I keep replying. It's like a sickness. - 03/12/2009 05:15:28 AM 1119 Views
Your subject line reinforces my opinion. - 03/12/2009 05:31:50 AM 1037 Views
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room. *NM* - 03/12/2009 07:21:05 AM 548 Views
LOL! - 04/12/2009 12:21:36 AM 1088 Views
See, you just proved my point. - 04/12/2009 12:39:59 AM 1130 Views
Hm. - 02/12/2009 06:58:56 AM 1733 Views
Re-read my exact point. - 02/12/2009 02:18:20 PM 1058 Views
No. Some kind of reading is indeed essential. - 02/12/2009 02:28:22 PM 1235 Views
Somehow I get the feeling that this post hasn't caused quite as much controversy - 02/12/2009 06:53:18 AM 1232 Views
As I see it... - 02/12/2009 11:38:07 AM 1119 Views
Yep. - 02/12/2009 02:18:22 PM 1273 Views
Re: Yep. - 02/12/2009 03:35:38 PM 1133 Views
Euripides was poorly received, initially. - 02/12/2009 03:57:58 PM 1049 Views
Re: Euripides was poorly received, initially. - 02/12/2009 04:00:35 PM 1075 Views
I know. - 02/12/2009 04:18:16 PM 1144 Views
Re: I know. - 02/12/2009 04:23:14 PM 1084 Views
That is why he's so good, in my opinion. - 02/12/2009 06:15:45 PM 1238 Views
All reading of fiction is a diversion by the very nature of the activity. - 02/12/2009 03:43:05 PM 1109 Views
Diversion from direct action, yes. Diversion from reality, no. - 02/12/2009 04:15:48 PM 1093 Views
I maintain that all acts of reading fiction are a diversion from reality/ the realistic - 02/12/2009 05:43:16 PM 1111 Views
It seems a regressive argument to me. - 03/12/2009 01:18:02 AM 1065 Views
You're playing a game. - 03/12/2009 03:40:14 PM 1149 Views
I like your response. *NM* - 03/12/2009 05:37:09 PM 517 Views
I fundamentally agree with much of what you're saying, but there is a distinction. - 03/12/2009 06:44:02 PM 1136 Views
Oh I concur on that distinction. - 04/12/2009 09:06:34 PM 1181 Views
Spec fic is perhaps at it's best in autocracies? - 02/12/2009 04:10:56 PM 1056 Views
Bulgakov - 02/12/2009 04:25:17 PM 1124 Views
I've only read the first chapter of M&M. - 02/12/2009 04:36:09 PM 1096 Views
Re: I've only read the first chapter of M&M. - 02/12/2009 04:40:16 PM 1045 Views
Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me. - 02/12/2009 05:17:31 PM 1084 Views
Re: Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me. - 02/12/2009 05:40:16 PM 1134 Views
I suppose. - 02/12/2009 06:26:30 PM 1127 Views
Re: I suppose. - 02/12/2009 07:25:26 PM 1126 Views
Well, I don't hold escapism in such low esteem *NM* - 02/12/2009 07:56:13 PM 550 Views
That is what I mean - 02/12/2009 08:36:02 PM 1056 Views
This was something I was exploring earlier. - 02/12/2009 04:34:41 PM 1166 Views
Funny thing about the hivemind antagonist. - 02/12/2009 05:13:30 PM 1120 Views
I didn't see the zombies reading speculative fiction - 02/12/2009 05:30:26 PM 1199 Views
Oh, they prefer Clive Cussler. - 02/12/2009 06:23:42 PM 1177 Views
i think it comes more down to quality than genre. - 02/12/2009 04:55:20 PM 1149 Views
I disagree with the ultimate conclusion but agree with many of your points. - 02/12/2009 05:43:04 PM 1095 Views
the illiad is a classic - 02/12/2009 06:35:24 PM 1135 Views
There's only one "L" in Iliad - 02/12/2009 08:18:38 PM 1098 Views
Is there a safe answer to that question? *NM* - 02/12/2009 10:33:21 PM 576 Views
Maybe not. *NM* - 03/12/2009 12:59:09 AM 536 Views
It took me a few minutes to agree - 02/12/2009 07:04:59 PM 1093 Views
Well, I'm glad if you got something out of the post! - 02/12/2009 09:13:26 PM 1114 Views
Re: Well, I'm glad if you got something out of the post! - 02/12/2009 09:20:49 PM 1082 Views
I don't know. I've only read about 30 pages so far. *NM* - 02/12/2009 10:05:54 PM 576 Views
Many people have mentioned that there's quite a bit of good sff lit out there and you seem to agree. - 02/12/2009 07:33:42 PM 1219 Views
Hmmm - 02/12/2009 08:40:53 PM 1113 Views
Re: Hmmm - 02/12/2009 10:48:02 PM 1136 Views
The website is called "Read and Find Out". It doesn't specify what we're supposed to read. - 02/12/2009 08:42:19 PM 1183 Views
Anti the idea ? I see no evidence for this. - 02/12/2009 09:50:37 PM 1141 Views
Heh - 02/12/2009 09:56:30 PM 1145 Views
What do you mean ? Almost all the repliers agree with Tom - 03/12/2009 11:01:08 AM 1105 Views
Re: What do you mean ? Almost all the repliers agree with Tom - 03/12/2009 11:10:35 AM 1137 Views
I see. You don't read announcements. - 03/12/2009 11:12:04 AM 1088 Views
No, but it does bill itself as science fiction/fantasy. - 02/12/2009 10:51:41 PM 1219 Views
Yes. - 03/12/2009 12:01:30 AM 1215 Views
I think Rebekah and Camilla put it well. - 02/12/2009 10:05:24 PM 1192 Views
I think they make good points, as I said above. - 02/12/2009 10:56:55 PM 1094 Views
I agree with in principle - 02/12/2009 11:22:19 PM 1070 Views
Certainly. People are free to skip any discussion. - 03/12/2009 01:01:40 AM 1194 Views
I have a few objections. - 03/12/2009 12:24:43 AM 1155 Views
where else should we talk about it? - 03/12/2009 12:37:26 AM 1112 Views
random thoughts stole my subject line - 03/12/2009 01:56:07 AM 1154 Views
I think I could agree with a "comfort food" analogy - 03/12/2009 02:12:01 AM 1174 Views
Re: I think I could agree with a "comfort food" analogy - 03/12/2009 02:38:17 AM 1228 Views
That's it - 03/12/2009 04:02:28 AM 1232 Views
Question: is it really science fiction without one of the following: - 03/12/2009 05:13:21 AM 1154 Views
Certainly - 03/12/2009 06:13:38 AM 1209 Views
technically speaking, fantasy is classed as a sub heading under science fiction. *NM* - 03/12/2009 02:51:12 PM 466 Views
According to whom? *NM* - 03/12/2009 03:55:45 PM 600 Views
Yeah. What she asked! *NM* - 03/12/2009 09:23:55 PM 568 Views
Yes, it is but actually... - 03/12/2009 09:31:44 PM 1133 Views
Eternal Sunshine doesn't have a mad scientist. - 03/12/2009 10:09:01 PM 1065 Views
Really? - 04/12/2009 07:01:42 PM 1106 Views
But Dan Brown rocks da house!!! *NM* - 03/12/2009 02:16:47 AM 569 Views
*pumps fist* Give it up for Dan Brown! *NM* - 03/12/2009 03:58:23 AM 561 Views
That's Dan "booyah" Brown!!! Booyah!!! *NM* - 04/12/2009 02:00:56 AM 575 Views
another thing wrong with your argument - 03/12/2009 03:30:19 PM 1121 Views
Absolutely not. And, as I said before, there's only one "L" in Iliad. - 03/12/2009 06:53:35 PM 941 Views
sorry about my atrocious spelling (including the one on pertinent) - 03/12/2009 07:14:59 PM 1251 Views
No problem. On the substantive points: - 03/12/2009 08:00:33 PM 1179 Views
more importantly, which I think it being lost in all this, - 03/12/2009 08:05:27 PM 1147 Views
I'm not reading the Iliad again, once was enough - 04/12/2009 12:19:07 PM 1103 Views
Congratulations on the replies count - 03/12/2009 09:30:41 PM 1248 Views
That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 03/12/2009 10:50:29 PM 1164 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 04/12/2009 07:44:56 PM 1181 Views
But the objective truth of a setting can be measured. - 04/12/2009 10:37:10 PM 1101 Views
But does it make any difference in the objective value of the book? - 06/12/2009 09:35:59 AM 1263 Views
YES. - 06/12/2009 03:34:17 PM 1048 Views
NO - 07/12/2009 08:40:33 PM 1154 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 04/12/2009 10:25:08 PM 1122 Views
Yes, it is worse with movies. Much worse, in fact. - 04/12/2009 10:33:18 PM 1156 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 06/12/2009 09:36:11 AM 1126 Views
Maybe we're different, but I don't care for FX - 06/12/2009 01:37:53 PM 1060 Views
This is not about the personal taste - 07/12/2009 08:50:34 PM 1161 Views
I've obviously missed the show here... - 04/12/2009 12:14:30 AM 1084 Views
I'm not sure that's right. This thing just keeps growing. - 04/12/2009 12:46:24 AM 1198 Views
What, your penis? - 06/12/2009 02:40:09 AM 1092 Views
Don't you know it! - 06/12/2009 03:28:16 PM 1000 Views
You talk the talk, that's for sure. - 07/12/2009 08:14:41 PM 1145 Views
Hate to break it to you... - 07/12/2009 09:54:24 PM 1188 Views
I thought you were gonna tell me... - 08/12/2009 03:07:54 PM 1257 Views
Metaphor versus literalism - 04/12/2009 05:42:03 PM 1157 Views
aha. but. - 07/12/2009 03:56:48 PM 1291 Views
Quoting Nietzsche is really hitting below the belt. - 07/12/2009 09:12:34 PM 1231 Views
It is good I was only paraphrasing, then - 08/12/2009 10:44:14 AM 1129 Views

Reply to Message