Active Users:1425 Time:25/09/2026 12:05:36 AM
I don't see the slippery slope, but rather, a confirmation of my original point. Tom Send a noteboard - 02/12/2009 01:41:24 AM
As the work puts more and more distance between itself and reality, the risk of becoming simply a "diversion" increases. Certainly, the reader should be on the lookout for deeper messages, but that having been said, it's hard to really expect a deeper message from a lot of authors in the genre.

Jordan certainly provided a diversion and little more. The interesting thing is that Sanderson's novels show a much higher level of insight and thought, and so the series might end a bit "deeper", so to speak, than it would have if Jordan had written it.

To take the analogy of dwarves and racism, while such a story could prove a point, it also distances people from the historical realities of racism in the real world, which robs the issue of much of its complexity. On the one hand, it may make certain ideas about the inherent injustice in racism plain to people who wouldn't have thought about it that way, but on the other hand, many could dismiss it or see it as inapplicable to a real-world situation where they or their friends may be more emotionally involved. Of course, it might be very interesting to read.

The real point of this post is to try to encourage people to go beyond reading simply fantasy and science fiction because an incomparably large portion of it is little more than diversion. If it stirred a healthy debate, all the better. If people start to analyse their reading choices and wonder, "Am I missing something?" then they benefit.
Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.

ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius

Ummaka qinnassa nīk!

*MySmiley*
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In Support of Other Fiction - 01/12/2009 09:06:14 PM 2516 Views
- 01/12/2009 09:22:56 PM 1580 Views
Re: - 01/12/2009 09:28:04 PM 1577 Views
Wow...we were just Santified *NM* - 03/12/2009 09:16:21 PM 824 Views
Well, let me offer a diverging view on the topic of speculative fiction. - 01/12/2009 09:46:35 PM 1507 Views
I would counter that the stripping away removes a level of reality. - 01/12/2009 10:05:28 PM 1586 Views
That's a Slippery Slope Because You Could Argue On the Same Basis That All Fiction Does That. - 01/12/2009 11:34:34 PM 1652 Views
I don't see the slippery slope, but rather, a confirmation of my original point. - 02/12/2009 01:41:24 AM 1565 Views
perhaps some university will do a study - 03/12/2009 03:55:54 PM 1552 Views
I'd like to see it - 03/12/2009 09:15:12 PM 1568 Views
I'll get to it once I finish my thesis - 03/12/2009 09:56:29 PM 1521 Views
If it looks like crap and smells like crap... - 03/12/2009 10:04:15 PM 1589 Views
I Think I'll Post a Thread on This. - 03/12/2009 06:47:05 PM 1521 Views
I'd like to see it. - 03/12/2009 09:23:07 PM 1615 Views
Regarding depth in Jordan - 03/12/2009 09:31:19 PM 1560 Views
I was thinking about that too - 03/12/2009 10:05:40 PM 1538 Views
Re: I was thinking about that too - 03/12/2009 10:09:26 PM 1607 Views
Destroying the Wheel is meaningless. - 03/12/2009 10:18:08 PM 1481 Views
Re: Destroying the Wheel is meaningless. - 03/12/2009 10:30:15 PM 1554 Views
I Totally Missed That. - 04/12/2009 10:45:56 PM 1637 Views
Re: I Totally Missed That. - 04/12/2009 10:47:59 PM 1559 Views
I Don't Believe It Cursory, But Comparative. - 04/12/2009 11:29:36 PM 1700 Views
Publication bookend Y2K? - 05/12/2009 10:36:01 AM 1578 Views
They're Thick Bookends. - 05/12/2009 06:12:06 PM 1546 Views
I'll Try to Have It Up Tomorrow Early. - 04/12/2009 11:24:18 PM 1629 Views
I like it. - 01/12/2009 10:28:48 PM 1541 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 01:43:05 AM 1670 Views
I find Michel Houellebecq to be one of the most intriguing writers of our time - 01/12/2009 11:14:05 PM 1608 Views
And, in recent memory, Orwell was a first-rate writer. - 02/12/2009 01:44:29 AM 1611 Views
wait! there's somebody "dirtier" than Piers Anthony or Philip Jose Farmer??? - 03/12/2009 04:00:28 PM 1606 Views
PJF is dirty? - 04/12/2009 12:16:12 AM 1456 Views
Nice post. - 02/12/2009 12:03:09 AM 1655 Views
Perhaps you're right. - 02/12/2009 01:47:10 AM 1527 Views
In its entirety? No. - 02/12/2009 02:00:10 PM 1534 Views
I agree! - 02/12/2009 12:17:10 AM 1839 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 01:50:22 AM 1491 Views
I guess I'll break my silence after almost a month and a half... - 02/12/2009 12:23:07 AM 1610 Views
Popcorn? - 02/12/2009 12:31:44 AM 1598 Views
Yes - 02/12/2009 12:39:10 AM 1606 Views
Lovecraft? - 02/12/2009 12:51:55 AM 1595 Views
Re-read what I said - 02/12/2009 12:55:08 AM 1631 Views
aahh - 02/12/2009 09:26:40 AM 1531 Views
Larry, please tell me you weren't... - 03/12/2009 04:33:32 PM 1392 Views
I concur - 02/12/2009 12:27:13 AM 1505 Views
I like your framing of the issue (and Shannara is the Taco Bell of writing). - 02/12/2009 02:03:51 AM 1592 Views
Thank you - 02/12/2009 09:30:42 AM 1509 Views
more like the mom&pop greasy-spoon diner of writing *NM* - 03/12/2009 05:00:21 PM 746 Views
I'm going to put this in my sig, if you don't mind. - 02/12/2009 03:31:13 AM 1556 Views
hehehe - 02/12/2009 09:31:28 AM 1438 Views
Am i the only one who reads books for fun? - 02/12/2009 12:33:52 AM 1600 Views
There isn't necessarily a contradiction - 02/12/2009 12:38:43 AM 1592 Views
I certainly didn't read The Lost Symbol for ANY cultural, intellectual or edifying reason. - 02/12/2009 02:05:45 AM 1537 Views
it didn't come across that way - 03/12/2009 05:15:36 PM 1533 Views
Of course not. Personally, I don't touch anything other than mind candy when I'm in school, - 02/12/2009 03:29:23 AM 1538 Views
one of the things that is important to me in books/shows - 03/12/2009 05:20:29 PM 1436 Views
We agree! - 03/12/2009 08:03:00 PM 1508 Views
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is a science fiction/fantasy movie. - 02/12/2009 12:54:08 AM 1590 Views
i was gonna point that out. thnks. *NM* - 02/12/2009 01:13:47 AM 698 Views
Reading only speculative literature is limiting and monotonous. - 02/12/2009 02:09:42 AM 1616 Views
I was going to say exactly that about "real" literature: monotonous and limiting. - 02/12/2009 01:57:49 PM 1572 Views
I think his point was that only SF/F wasn't good food. - 02/12/2009 02:15:29 PM 1524 Views
I would not disagree with you if you said that. - 02/12/2009 02:27:08 PM 1469 Views
Most non-speculative fiction is fluff as well though. - 03/12/2009 05:38:32 PM 1456 Views
hear hear!! I agree totally wert-man - 03/12/2009 07:20:09 PM 1535 Views
Which brings us back to my point. - 03/12/2009 08:04:24 PM 1555 Views
Actually, it is a film that does not fit neatly into one category - 02/12/2009 11:16:20 AM 1567 Views
Science Fiction is the most PERTINANT form of fiction in the world today - 02/12/2009 12:57:19 AM 1586 Views
don't get me wrong - 02/12/2009 01:28:08 AM 1545 Views
SF&F and 'real literature' are not mutually exclusive - 02/12/2009 01:19:05 AM 1544 Views
No, they are not - 02/12/2009 02:18:53 AM 1513 Views
This line is a load of bull - 03/12/2009 02:39:53 PM 1646 Views
So why don't we occasionally focus on "real" books that are technically spec fiction? - 02/12/2009 01:25:04 AM 1466 Views
Why must we limit our focus in that way? - 02/12/2009 02:20:11 AM 1501 Views
I don't see it as limiting or forcing. - 02/12/2009 03:16:07 AM 1484 Views
"Elite club" or "elitist clique"? - 02/12/2009 03:52:11 AM 1462 Views
Either way, I want in. *NM* - 02/12/2009 11:33:52 AM 795 Views
Elite club is how we midwestern rednecks refer to Elitist Clique. *chews on a piece of hay* - 02/12/2009 02:52:01 PM 1677 Views
I was born in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:01:36 PM 1498 Views
I know. - 02/12/2009 03:12:05 PM 1504 Views
Green Acres in reverse, eh? - 02/12/2009 03:38:09 PM 1521 Views
lmao - 02/12/2009 06:21:17 PM 1655 Views
*piledrivers you* - 02/12/2009 06:28:02 PM 1458 Views
...! - 02/12/2009 03:17:57 PM 1463 Views
Admit it. You know what I'm talking about. - 02/12/2009 03:29:31 PM 1545 Views
Re: Admit it. You know what I'm talking about. - 02/12/2009 03:31:26 PM 1460 Views
Vermont isn't in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:39:36 PM 1449 Views
Re: Vermont isn't in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:42:47 PM 1481 Views
Huh! I really didn't think of you as being a masochist. - 02/12/2009 01:51:55 AM 1492 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 02:21:00 AM 1374 Views
Shitstorm! - 02/12/2009 03:06:59 AM 1483 Views
Heh heh heh. - 02/12/2009 03:45:40 AM 1492 Views
Read what you like to read. - 02/12/2009 04:18:53 AM 1630 Views
I'll super size you. Fine. *NM* - 02/12/2009 04:32:58 AM 749 Views
Oh noes! I'm getting word-fat! - 02/12/2009 04:59:05 AM 1514 Views
I seem to have struck a nerve. - 02/12/2009 05:20:27 AM 1536 Views
Apparently not the nerve you think, though. - 02/12/2009 06:42:02 AM 1602 Views
Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 02:13:10 PM 1565 Views
Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 03:26:59 PM 1542 Views
Agreed. - 02/12/2009 03:30:50 PM 1428 Views
Re: Agreed. - 02/12/2009 03:32:06 PM 1446 Views
Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 09:40:28 PM 1604 Views
I really did get under your skin - 02/12/2009 09:58:18 PM 1424 Views
- 02/12/2009 10:06:46 PM 1425 Views
Tom as much as you raise some great points, you are being a condescending ass. - 03/12/2009 04:26:27 AM 1496 Views
You're entitled to your opinion. I don't care. - 03/12/2009 04:51:18 AM 1475 Views
I keep replying. It's like a sickness. - 03/12/2009 05:15:28 AM 1488 Views
Your subject line reinforces my opinion. - 03/12/2009 05:31:50 AM 1409 Views
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room. *NM* - 03/12/2009 07:21:05 AM 740 Views
LOL! - 04/12/2009 12:21:36 AM 1481 Views
See, you just proved my point. - 04/12/2009 12:39:59 AM 1494 Views
Hm. - 02/12/2009 06:58:56 AM 2100 Views
Re-read my exact point. - 02/12/2009 02:18:20 PM 1434 Views
No. Some kind of reading is indeed essential. - 02/12/2009 02:28:22 PM 1579 Views
Somehow I get the feeling that this post hasn't caused quite as much controversy - 02/12/2009 06:53:18 AM 1622 Views
As I see it... - 02/12/2009 11:38:07 AM 1504 Views
Yep. - 02/12/2009 02:18:22 PM 1657 Views
Re: Yep. - 02/12/2009 03:35:38 PM 1517 Views
Euripides was poorly received, initially. - 02/12/2009 03:57:58 PM 1438 Views
Re: Euripides was poorly received, initially. - 02/12/2009 04:00:35 PM 1448 Views
I know. - 02/12/2009 04:18:16 PM 1507 Views
Re: I know. - 02/12/2009 04:23:14 PM 1450 Views
That is why he's so good, in my opinion. - 02/12/2009 06:15:45 PM 1651 Views
All reading of fiction is a diversion by the very nature of the activity. - 02/12/2009 03:43:05 PM 1495 Views
Diversion from direct action, yes. Diversion from reality, no. - 02/12/2009 04:15:48 PM 1468 Views
I maintain that all acts of reading fiction are a diversion from reality/ the realistic - 02/12/2009 05:43:16 PM 1502 Views
It seems a regressive argument to me. - 03/12/2009 01:18:02 AM 1436 Views
You're playing a game. - 03/12/2009 03:40:14 PM 1541 Views
I like your response. *NM* - 03/12/2009 05:37:09 PM 733 Views
I fundamentally agree with much of what you're saying, but there is a distinction. - 03/12/2009 06:44:02 PM 1573 Views
Oh I concur on that distinction. - 04/12/2009 09:06:34 PM 1537 Views
Spec fic is perhaps at it's best in autocracies? - 02/12/2009 04:10:56 PM 1397 Views
Bulgakov - 02/12/2009 04:25:17 PM 1530 Views
I've only read the first chapter of M&M. - 02/12/2009 04:36:09 PM 1491 Views
Re: I've only read the first chapter of M&M. - 02/12/2009 04:40:16 PM 1392 Views
Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me. - 02/12/2009 05:17:31 PM 1454 Views
Re: Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me. - 02/12/2009 05:40:16 PM 1492 Views
I suppose. - 02/12/2009 06:26:30 PM 1465 Views
Re: I suppose. - 02/12/2009 07:25:26 PM 1490 Views
Well, I don't hold escapism in such low esteem *NM* - 02/12/2009 07:56:13 PM 745 Views
That is what I mean - 02/12/2009 08:36:02 PM 1424 Views
This was something I was exploring earlier. - 02/12/2009 04:34:41 PM 1595 Views
Funny thing about the hivemind antagonist. - 02/12/2009 05:13:30 PM 1508 Views
I didn't see the zombies reading speculative fiction - 02/12/2009 05:30:26 PM 1575 Views
Oh, they prefer Clive Cussler. - 02/12/2009 06:23:42 PM 1524 Views
i think it comes more down to quality than genre. - 02/12/2009 04:55:20 PM 1510 Views
I disagree with the ultimate conclusion but agree with many of your points. - 02/12/2009 05:43:04 PM 1509 Views
the illiad is a classic - 02/12/2009 06:35:24 PM 1510 Views
There's only one "L" in Iliad - 02/12/2009 08:18:38 PM 1473 Views
Is there a safe answer to that question? *NM* - 02/12/2009 10:33:21 PM 826 Views
Maybe not. *NM* - 03/12/2009 12:59:09 AM 752 Views
It took me a few minutes to agree - 02/12/2009 07:04:59 PM 1483 Views
Well, I'm glad if you got something out of the post! - 02/12/2009 09:13:26 PM 1482 Views
Re: Well, I'm glad if you got something out of the post! - 02/12/2009 09:20:49 PM 1455 Views
I don't know. I've only read about 30 pages so far. *NM* - 02/12/2009 10:05:54 PM 804 Views
Many people have mentioned that there's quite a bit of good sff lit out there and you seem to agree. - 02/12/2009 07:33:42 PM 1562 Views
Hmmm - 02/12/2009 08:40:53 PM 1431 Views
Re: Hmmm - 02/12/2009 10:48:02 PM 1483 Views
The website is called "Read and Find Out". It doesn't specify what we're supposed to read. - 02/12/2009 08:42:19 PM 1556 Views
Anti the idea ? I see no evidence for this. - 02/12/2009 09:50:37 PM 1504 Views
Heh - 02/12/2009 09:56:30 PM 1511 Views
What do you mean ? Almost all the repliers agree with Tom - 03/12/2009 11:01:08 AM 1468 Views
Re: What do you mean ? Almost all the repliers agree with Tom - 03/12/2009 11:10:35 AM 1531 Views
I see. You don't read announcements. - 03/12/2009 11:12:04 AM 1458 Views
No, but it does bill itself as science fiction/fantasy. - 02/12/2009 10:51:41 PM 1665 Views
Yes. - 03/12/2009 12:01:30 AM 1566 Views
I think Rebekah and Camilla put it well. - 02/12/2009 10:05:24 PM 1584 Views
I think they make good points, as I said above. - 02/12/2009 10:56:55 PM 1434 Views
I agree with in principle - 02/12/2009 11:22:19 PM 1428 Views
Certainly. People are free to skip any discussion. - 03/12/2009 01:01:40 AM 1607 Views
I have a few objections. - 03/12/2009 12:24:43 AM 1505 Views
where else should we talk about it? - 03/12/2009 12:37:26 AM 1502 Views
random thoughts stole my subject line - 03/12/2009 01:56:07 AM 1574 Views
I think I could agree with a "comfort food" analogy - 03/12/2009 02:12:01 AM 1532 Views
Re: I think I could agree with a "comfort food" analogy - 03/12/2009 02:38:17 AM 1575 Views
That's it - 03/12/2009 04:02:28 AM 1621 Views
Question: is it really science fiction without one of the following: - 03/12/2009 05:13:21 AM 1504 Views
Certainly - 03/12/2009 06:13:38 AM 1556 Views
technically speaking, fantasy is classed as a sub heading under science fiction. *NM* - 03/12/2009 02:51:12 PM 659 Views
According to whom? *NM* - 03/12/2009 03:55:45 PM 788 Views
Yeah. What she asked! *NM* - 03/12/2009 09:23:55 PM 769 Views
Yes, it is but actually... - 03/12/2009 09:31:44 PM 1474 Views
Eternal Sunshine doesn't have a mad scientist. - 03/12/2009 10:09:01 PM 1420 Views
Really? - 04/12/2009 07:01:42 PM 1488 Views
But Dan Brown rocks da house!!! *NM* - 03/12/2009 02:16:47 AM 762 Views
*pumps fist* Give it up for Dan Brown! *NM* - 03/12/2009 03:58:23 AM 792 Views
That's Dan "booyah" Brown!!! Booyah!!! *NM* - 04/12/2009 02:00:56 AM 767 Views
another thing wrong with your argument - 03/12/2009 03:30:19 PM 1544 Views
Absolutely not. And, as I said before, there's only one "L" in Iliad. - 03/12/2009 06:53:35 PM 1320 Views
sorry about my atrocious spelling (including the one on pertinent) - 03/12/2009 07:14:59 PM 1597 Views
No problem. On the substantive points: - 03/12/2009 08:00:33 PM 1544 Views
more importantly, which I think it being lost in all this, - 03/12/2009 08:05:27 PM 1495 Views
I'm not reading the Iliad again, once was enough - 04/12/2009 12:19:07 PM 1507 Views
Congratulations on the replies count - 03/12/2009 09:30:41 PM 1607 Views
That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 03/12/2009 10:50:29 PM 1561 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 04/12/2009 07:44:56 PM 1592 Views
But the objective truth of a setting can be measured. - 04/12/2009 10:37:10 PM 1479 Views
But does it make any difference in the objective value of the book? - 06/12/2009 09:35:59 AM 1626 Views
YES. - 06/12/2009 03:34:17 PM 1431 Views
NO - 07/12/2009 08:40:33 PM 1536 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 04/12/2009 10:25:08 PM 1505 Views
Yes, it is worse with movies. Much worse, in fact. - 04/12/2009 10:33:18 PM 1544 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 06/12/2009 09:36:11 AM 1501 Views
Maybe we're different, but I don't care for FX - 06/12/2009 01:37:53 PM 1486 Views
This is not about the personal taste - 07/12/2009 08:50:34 PM 1522 Views
I've obviously missed the show here... - 04/12/2009 12:14:30 AM 1448 Views
I'm not sure that's right. This thing just keeps growing. - 04/12/2009 12:46:24 AM 1556 Views
What, your penis? - 06/12/2009 02:40:09 AM 1495 Views
Don't you know it! - 06/12/2009 03:28:16 PM 1362 Views
You talk the talk, that's for sure. - 07/12/2009 08:14:41 PM 1514 Views
Hate to break it to you... - 07/12/2009 09:54:24 PM 1541 Views
I thought you were gonna tell me... - 08/12/2009 03:07:54 PM 1625 Views
Metaphor versus literalism - 04/12/2009 05:42:03 PM 1550 Views
aha. but. - 07/12/2009 03:56:48 PM 1687 Views
Quoting Nietzsche is really hitting below the belt. - 07/12/2009 09:12:34 PM 1631 Views
It is good I was only paraphrasing, then - 08/12/2009 10:44:14 AM 1502 Views

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