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I don't see the slippery slope, but rather, a confirmation of my original point. Tom Send a noteboard - 02/12/2009 01:41:24 AM
As the work puts more and more distance between itself and reality, the risk of becoming simply a "diversion" increases. Certainly, the reader should be on the lookout for deeper messages, but that having been said, it's hard to really expect a deeper message from a lot of authors in the genre.

Jordan certainly provided a diversion and little more. The interesting thing is that Sanderson's novels show a much higher level of insight and thought, and so the series might end a bit "deeper", so to speak, than it would have if Jordan had written it.

To take the analogy of dwarves and racism, while such a story could prove a point, it also distances people from the historical realities of racism in the real world, which robs the issue of much of its complexity. On the one hand, it may make certain ideas about the inherent injustice in racism plain to people who wouldn't have thought about it that way, but on the other hand, many could dismiss it or see it as inapplicable to a real-world situation where they or their friends may be more emotionally involved. Of course, it might be very interesting to read.

The real point of this post is to try to encourage people to go beyond reading simply fantasy and science fiction because an incomparably large portion of it is little more than diversion. If it stirred a healthy debate, all the better. If people start to analyse their reading choices and wonder, "Am I missing something?" then they benefit.
Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.

ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius

Ummaka qinnassa nīk!

*MySmiley*
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In Support of Other Fiction - 01/12/2009 09:06:14 PM 2323 Views
- 01/12/2009 09:22:56 PM 1386 Views
Re: - 01/12/2009 09:28:04 PM 1373 Views
Wow...we were just Santified *NM* - 03/12/2009 09:16:21 PM 716 Views
Well, let me offer a diverging view on the topic of speculative fiction. - 01/12/2009 09:46:35 PM 1308 Views
I would counter that the stripping away removes a level of reality. - 01/12/2009 10:05:28 PM 1390 Views
That's a Slippery Slope Because You Could Argue On the Same Basis That All Fiction Does That. - 01/12/2009 11:34:34 PM 1452 Views
I don't see the slippery slope, but rather, a confirmation of my original point. - 02/12/2009 01:41:24 AM 1373 Views
perhaps some university will do a study - 03/12/2009 03:55:54 PM 1354 Views
I'd like to see it - 03/12/2009 09:15:12 PM 1388 Views
I'll get to it once I finish my thesis - 03/12/2009 09:56:29 PM 1330 Views
If it looks like crap and smells like crap... - 03/12/2009 10:04:15 PM 1365 Views
I Think I'll Post a Thread on This. - 03/12/2009 06:47:05 PM 1324 Views
I'd like to see it. - 03/12/2009 09:23:07 PM 1379 Views
Regarding depth in Jordan - 03/12/2009 09:31:19 PM 1344 Views
I was thinking about that too - 03/12/2009 10:05:40 PM 1347 Views
Re: I was thinking about that too - 03/12/2009 10:09:26 PM 1419 Views
Destroying the Wheel is meaningless. - 03/12/2009 10:18:08 PM 1291 Views
Re: Destroying the Wheel is meaningless. - 03/12/2009 10:30:15 PM 1354 Views
I Totally Missed That. - 04/12/2009 10:45:56 PM 1432 Views
Re: I Totally Missed That. - 04/12/2009 10:47:59 PM 1389 Views
I Don't Believe It Cursory, But Comparative. - 04/12/2009 11:29:36 PM 1500 Views
Publication bookend Y2K? - 05/12/2009 10:36:01 AM 1391 Views
They're Thick Bookends. - 05/12/2009 06:12:06 PM 1353 Views
I'll Try to Have It Up Tomorrow Early. - 04/12/2009 11:24:18 PM 1402 Views
I like it. - 01/12/2009 10:28:48 PM 1346 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 01:43:05 AM 1492 Views
I find Michel Houellebecq to be one of the most intriguing writers of our time - 01/12/2009 11:14:05 PM 1436 Views
And, in recent memory, Orwell was a first-rate writer. - 02/12/2009 01:44:29 AM 1409 Views
wait! there's somebody "dirtier" than Piers Anthony or Philip Jose Farmer??? - 03/12/2009 04:00:28 PM 1395 Views
PJF is dirty? - 04/12/2009 12:16:12 AM 1272 Views
Nice post. - 02/12/2009 12:03:09 AM 1432 Views
Perhaps you're right. - 02/12/2009 01:47:10 AM 1331 Views
In its entirety? No. - 02/12/2009 02:00:10 PM 1343 Views
I agree! - 02/12/2009 12:17:10 AM 1624 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 01:50:22 AM 1286 Views
I guess I'll break my silence after almost a month and a half... - 02/12/2009 12:23:07 AM 1458 Views
Popcorn? - 02/12/2009 12:31:44 AM 1396 Views
Yes - 02/12/2009 12:39:10 AM 1424 Views
Lovecraft? - 02/12/2009 12:51:55 AM 1402 Views
Re-read what I said - 02/12/2009 12:55:08 AM 1463 Views
aahh - 02/12/2009 09:26:40 AM 1338 Views
Larry, please tell me you weren't... - 03/12/2009 04:33:32 PM 1202 Views
I concur - 02/12/2009 12:27:13 AM 1330 Views
I like your framing of the issue (and Shannara is the Taco Bell of writing). - 02/12/2009 02:03:51 AM 1399 Views
Thank you - 02/12/2009 09:30:42 AM 1337 Views
more like the mom&pop greasy-spoon diner of writing *NM* - 03/12/2009 05:00:21 PM 632 Views
I'm going to put this in my sig, if you don't mind. - 02/12/2009 03:31:13 AM 1382 Views
hehehe - 02/12/2009 09:31:28 AM 1264 Views
Am i the only one who reads books for fun? - 02/12/2009 12:33:52 AM 1425 Views
There isn't necessarily a contradiction - 02/12/2009 12:38:43 AM 1418 Views
I certainly didn't read The Lost Symbol for ANY cultural, intellectual or edifying reason. - 02/12/2009 02:05:45 AM 1332 Views
it didn't come across that way - 03/12/2009 05:15:36 PM 1345 Views
Of course not. Personally, I don't touch anything other than mind candy when I'm in school, - 02/12/2009 03:29:23 AM 1336 Views
one of the things that is important to me in books/shows - 03/12/2009 05:20:29 PM 1263 Views
We agree! - 03/12/2009 08:03:00 PM 1325 Views
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is a science fiction/fantasy movie. - 02/12/2009 12:54:08 AM 1404 Views
i was gonna point that out. thnks. *NM* - 02/12/2009 01:13:47 AM 592 Views
Reading only speculative literature is limiting and monotonous. - 02/12/2009 02:09:42 AM 1419 Views
I was going to say exactly that about "real" literature: monotonous and limiting. - 02/12/2009 01:57:49 PM 1371 Views
I think his point was that only SF/F wasn't good food. - 02/12/2009 02:15:29 PM 1334 Views
I would not disagree with you if you said that. - 02/12/2009 02:27:08 PM 1270 Views
Most non-speculative fiction is fluff as well though. - 03/12/2009 05:38:32 PM 1255 Views
hear hear!! I agree totally wert-man - 03/12/2009 07:20:09 PM 1325 Views
Which brings us back to my point. - 03/12/2009 08:04:24 PM 1378 Views
Actually, it is a film that does not fit neatly into one category - 02/12/2009 11:16:20 AM 1383 Views
Science Fiction is the most PERTINANT form of fiction in the world today - 02/12/2009 12:57:19 AM 1370 Views
don't get me wrong - 02/12/2009 01:28:08 AM 1356 Views
SF&F and 'real literature' are not mutually exclusive - 02/12/2009 01:19:05 AM 1340 Views
No, they are not - 02/12/2009 02:18:53 AM 1325 Views
This line is a load of bull - 03/12/2009 02:39:53 PM 1457 Views
So why don't we occasionally focus on "real" books that are technically spec fiction? - 02/12/2009 01:25:04 AM 1286 Views
Why must we limit our focus in that way? - 02/12/2009 02:20:11 AM 1293 Views
I don't see it as limiting or forcing. - 02/12/2009 03:16:07 AM 1305 Views
"Elite club" or "elitist clique"? - 02/12/2009 03:52:11 AM 1283 Views
Either way, I want in. *NM* - 02/12/2009 11:33:52 AM 699 Views
Elite club is how we midwestern rednecks refer to Elitist Clique. *chews on a piece of hay* - 02/12/2009 02:52:01 PM 1476 Views
I was born in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:01:36 PM 1332 Views
I know. - 02/12/2009 03:12:05 PM 1301 Views
Green Acres in reverse, eh? - 02/12/2009 03:38:09 PM 1324 Views
lmao - 02/12/2009 06:21:17 PM 1498 Views
*piledrivers you* - 02/12/2009 06:28:02 PM 1258 Views
...! - 02/12/2009 03:17:57 PM 1274 Views
Admit it. You know what I'm talking about. - 02/12/2009 03:29:31 PM 1330 Views
Re: Admit it. You know what I'm talking about. - 02/12/2009 03:31:26 PM 1272 Views
Vermont isn't in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:39:36 PM 1266 Views
Re: Vermont isn't in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:42:47 PM 1296 Views
Huh! I really didn't think of you as being a masochist. - 02/12/2009 01:51:55 AM 1311 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 02:21:00 AM 1189 Views
Shitstorm! - 02/12/2009 03:06:59 AM 1266 Views
Heh heh heh. - 02/12/2009 03:45:40 AM 1305 Views
Read what you like to read. - 02/12/2009 04:18:53 AM 1415 Views
I'll super size you. Fine. *NM* - 02/12/2009 04:32:58 AM 649 Views
Oh noes! I'm getting word-fat! - 02/12/2009 04:59:05 AM 1305 Views
I seem to have struck a nerve. - 02/12/2009 05:20:27 AM 1324 Views
Apparently not the nerve you think, though. - 02/12/2009 06:42:02 AM 1406 Views
Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 02:13:10 PM 1341 Views
Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 03:26:59 PM 1328 Views
Agreed. - 02/12/2009 03:30:50 PM 1248 Views
Re: Agreed. - 02/12/2009 03:32:06 PM 1255 Views
Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 09:40:28 PM 1403 Views
I really did get under your skin - 02/12/2009 09:58:18 PM 1243 Views
- 02/12/2009 10:06:46 PM 1250 Views
Tom as much as you raise some great points, you are being a condescending ass. - 03/12/2009 04:26:27 AM 1317 Views
You're entitled to your opinion. I don't care. - 03/12/2009 04:51:18 AM 1282 Views
I keep replying. It's like a sickness. - 03/12/2009 05:15:28 AM 1301 Views
Your subject line reinforces my opinion. - 03/12/2009 05:31:50 AM 1213 Views
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room. *NM* - 03/12/2009 07:21:05 AM 634 Views
LOL! - 04/12/2009 12:21:36 AM 1275 Views
See, you just proved my point. - 04/12/2009 12:39:59 AM 1315 Views
Hm. - 02/12/2009 06:58:56 AM 1915 Views
Re-read my exact point. - 02/12/2009 02:18:20 PM 1254 Views
No. Some kind of reading is indeed essential. - 02/12/2009 02:28:22 PM 1388 Views
Somehow I get the feeling that this post hasn't caused quite as much controversy - 02/12/2009 06:53:18 AM 1423 Views
As I see it... - 02/12/2009 11:38:07 AM 1301 Views
Yep. - 02/12/2009 02:18:22 PM 1454 Views
Re: Yep. - 02/12/2009 03:35:38 PM 1313 Views
Euripides was poorly received, initially. - 02/12/2009 03:57:58 PM 1228 Views
Re: Euripides was poorly received, initially. - 02/12/2009 04:00:35 PM 1255 Views
I know. - 02/12/2009 04:18:16 PM 1320 Views
Re: I know. - 02/12/2009 04:23:14 PM 1254 Views
That is why he's so good, in my opinion. - 02/12/2009 06:15:45 PM 1430 Views
All reading of fiction is a diversion by the very nature of the activity. - 02/12/2009 03:43:05 PM 1294 Views
Diversion from direct action, yes. Diversion from reality, no. - 02/12/2009 04:15:48 PM 1263 Views
I maintain that all acts of reading fiction are a diversion from reality/ the realistic - 02/12/2009 05:43:16 PM 1281 Views
It seems a regressive argument to me. - 03/12/2009 01:18:02 AM 1232 Views
You're playing a game. - 03/12/2009 03:40:14 PM 1339 Views
I like your response. *NM* - 03/12/2009 05:37:09 PM 618 Views
I fundamentally agree with much of what you're saying, but there is a distinction. - 03/12/2009 06:44:02 PM 1320 Views
Oh I concur on that distinction. - 04/12/2009 09:06:34 PM 1355 Views
Spec fic is perhaps at it's best in autocracies? - 02/12/2009 04:10:56 PM 1220 Views
Bulgakov - 02/12/2009 04:25:17 PM 1323 Views
I've only read the first chapter of M&M. - 02/12/2009 04:36:09 PM 1297 Views
Re: I've only read the first chapter of M&M. - 02/12/2009 04:40:16 PM 1202 Views
Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me. - 02/12/2009 05:17:31 PM 1261 Views
Re: Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me. - 02/12/2009 05:40:16 PM 1305 Views
I suppose. - 02/12/2009 06:26:30 PM 1298 Views
Re: I suppose. - 02/12/2009 07:25:26 PM 1310 Views
Well, I don't hold escapism in such low esteem *NM* - 02/12/2009 07:56:13 PM 641 Views
That is what I mean - 02/12/2009 08:36:02 PM 1246 Views
This was something I was exploring earlier. - 02/12/2009 04:34:41 PM 1354 Views
Funny thing about the hivemind antagonist. - 02/12/2009 05:13:30 PM 1289 Views
I didn't see the zombies reading speculative fiction - 02/12/2009 05:30:26 PM 1389 Views
Oh, they prefer Clive Cussler. - 02/12/2009 06:23:42 PM 1363 Views
i think it comes more down to quality than genre. - 02/12/2009 04:55:20 PM 1325 Views
I disagree with the ultimate conclusion but agree with many of your points. - 02/12/2009 05:43:04 PM 1286 Views
the illiad is a classic - 02/12/2009 06:35:24 PM 1299 Views
There's only one "L" in Iliad - 02/12/2009 08:18:38 PM 1278 Views
Is there a safe answer to that question? *NM* - 02/12/2009 10:33:21 PM 683 Views
Maybe not. *NM* - 03/12/2009 12:59:09 AM 639 Views
It took me a few minutes to agree - 02/12/2009 07:04:59 PM 1287 Views
Well, I'm glad if you got something out of the post! - 02/12/2009 09:13:26 PM 1294 Views
Re: Well, I'm glad if you got something out of the post! - 02/12/2009 09:20:49 PM 1258 Views
I don't know. I've only read about 30 pages so far. *NM* - 02/12/2009 10:05:54 PM 700 Views
Many people have mentioned that there's quite a bit of good sff lit out there and you seem to agree. - 02/12/2009 07:33:42 PM 1387 Views
Hmmm - 02/12/2009 08:40:53 PM 1262 Views
Re: Hmmm - 02/12/2009 10:48:02 PM 1292 Views
The website is called "Read and Find Out". It doesn't specify what we're supposed to read. - 02/12/2009 08:42:19 PM 1363 Views
Anti the idea ? I see no evidence for this. - 02/12/2009 09:50:37 PM 1318 Views
Heh - 02/12/2009 09:56:30 PM 1309 Views
What do you mean ? Almost all the repliers agree with Tom - 03/12/2009 11:01:08 AM 1287 Views
Re: What do you mean ? Almost all the repliers agree with Tom - 03/12/2009 11:10:35 AM 1327 Views
I see. You don't read announcements. - 03/12/2009 11:12:04 AM 1264 Views
No, but it does bill itself as science fiction/fantasy. - 02/12/2009 10:51:41 PM 1410 Views
Yes. - 03/12/2009 12:01:30 AM 1373 Views
I think Rebekah and Camilla put it well. - 02/12/2009 10:05:24 PM 1391 Views
I think they make good points, as I said above. - 02/12/2009 10:56:55 PM 1255 Views
I agree with in principle - 02/12/2009 11:22:19 PM 1232 Views
Certainly. People are free to skip any discussion. - 03/12/2009 01:01:40 AM 1399 Views
I have a few objections. - 03/12/2009 12:24:43 AM 1333 Views
where else should we talk about it? - 03/12/2009 12:37:26 AM 1305 Views
random thoughts stole my subject line - 03/12/2009 01:56:07 AM 1358 Views
I think I could agree with a "comfort food" analogy - 03/12/2009 02:12:01 AM 1332 Views
Re: I think I could agree with a "comfort food" analogy - 03/12/2009 02:38:17 AM 1395 Views
That's it - 03/12/2009 04:02:28 AM 1434 Views
Question: is it really science fiction without one of the following: - 03/12/2009 05:13:21 AM 1312 Views
Certainly - 03/12/2009 06:13:38 AM 1384 Views
technically speaking, fantasy is classed as a sub heading under science fiction. *NM* - 03/12/2009 02:51:12 PM 557 Views
According to whom? *NM* - 03/12/2009 03:55:45 PM 682 Views
Yeah. What she asked! *NM* - 03/12/2009 09:23:55 PM 670 Views
Yes, it is but actually... - 03/12/2009 09:31:44 PM 1311 Views
Eternal Sunshine doesn't have a mad scientist. - 03/12/2009 10:09:01 PM 1241 Views
Really? - 04/12/2009 07:01:42 PM 1287 Views
But Dan Brown rocks da house!!! *NM* - 03/12/2009 02:16:47 AM 661 Views
*pumps fist* Give it up for Dan Brown! *NM* - 03/12/2009 03:58:23 AM 685 Views
That's Dan "booyah" Brown!!! Booyah!!! *NM* - 04/12/2009 02:00:56 AM 662 Views
another thing wrong with your argument - 03/12/2009 03:30:19 PM 1333 Views
Absolutely not. And, as I said before, there's only one "L" in Iliad. - 03/12/2009 06:53:35 PM 1121 Views
sorry about my atrocious spelling (including the one on pertinent) - 03/12/2009 07:14:59 PM 1418 Views
No problem. On the substantive points: - 03/12/2009 08:00:33 PM 1351 Views
more importantly, which I think it being lost in all this, - 03/12/2009 08:05:27 PM 1309 Views
I'm not reading the Iliad again, once was enough - 04/12/2009 12:19:07 PM 1276 Views
Congratulations on the replies count - 03/12/2009 09:30:41 PM 1414 Views
That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 03/12/2009 10:50:29 PM 1335 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 04/12/2009 07:44:56 PM 1382 Views
But the objective truth of a setting can be measured. - 04/12/2009 10:37:10 PM 1282 Views
But does it make any difference in the objective value of the book? - 06/12/2009 09:35:59 AM 1442 Views
YES. - 06/12/2009 03:34:17 PM 1218 Views
NO - 07/12/2009 08:40:33 PM 1347 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 04/12/2009 10:25:08 PM 1313 Views
Yes, it is worse with movies. Much worse, in fact. - 04/12/2009 10:33:18 PM 1345 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 06/12/2009 09:36:11 AM 1307 Views
Maybe we're different, but I don't care for FX - 06/12/2009 01:37:53 PM 1283 Views
This is not about the personal taste - 07/12/2009 08:50:34 PM 1344 Views
I've obviously missed the show here... - 04/12/2009 12:14:30 AM 1258 Views
I'm not sure that's right. This thing just keeps growing. - 04/12/2009 12:46:24 AM 1384 Views
What, your penis? - 06/12/2009 02:40:09 AM 1311 Views
Don't you know it! - 06/12/2009 03:28:16 PM 1174 Views
You talk the talk, that's for sure. - 07/12/2009 08:14:41 PM 1333 Views
Hate to break it to you... - 07/12/2009 09:54:24 PM 1368 Views
I thought you were gonna tell me... - 08/12/2009 03:07:54 PM 1436 Views
Metaphor versus literalism - 04/12/2009 05:42:03 PM 1342 Views
aha. but. - 07/12/2009 03:56:48 PM 1483 Views
Quoting Nietzsche is really hitting below the belt. - 07/12/2009 09:12:34 PM 1415 Views
It is good I was only paraphrasing, then - 08/12/2009 10:44:14 AM 1307 Views

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