I don't see the slippery slope, but rather, a confirmation of my original point.
Tom Send a noteboard - 02/12/2009 01:41:24 AM
As the work puts more and more distance between itself and reality, the risk of becoming simply a "diversion" increases. Certainly, the reader should be on the lookout for deeper messages, but that having been said, it's hard to really expect a deeper message from a lot of authors in the genre.
Jordan certainly provided a diversion and little more. The interesting thing is that Sanderson's novels show a much higher level of insight and thought, and so the series might end a bit "deeper", so to speak, than it would have if Jordan had written it.
To take the analogy of dwarves and racism, while such a story could prove a point, it also distances people from the historical realities of racism in the real world, which robs the issue of much of its complexity. On the one hand, it may make certain ideas about the inherent injustice in racism plain to people who wouldn't have thought about it that way, but on the other hand, many could dismiss it or see it as inapplicable to a real-world situation where they or their friends may be more emotionally involved. Of course, it might be very interesting to read.
The real point of this post is to try to encourage people to go beyond reading simply fantasy and science fiction because an incomparably large portion of it is little more than diversion. If it stirred a healthy debate, all the better. If people start to analyse their reading choices and wonder, "Am I missing something?" then they benefit.
Jordan certainly provided a diversion and little more. The interesting thing is that Sanderson's novels show a much higher level of insight and thought, and so the series might end a bit "deeper", so to speak, than it would have if Jordan had written it.
To take the analogy of dwarves and racism, while such a story could prove a point, it also distances people from the historical realities of racism in the real world, which robs the issue of much of its complexity. On the one hand, it may make certain ideas about the inherent injustice in racism plain to people who wouldn't have thought about it that way, but on the other hand, many could dismiss it or see it as inapplicable to a real-world situation where they or their friends may be more emotionally involved. Of course, it might be very interesting to read.
The real point of this post is to try to encourage people to go beyond reading simply fantasy and science fiction because an incomparably large portion of it is little more than diversion. If it stirred a healthy debate, all the better. If people start to analyse their reading choices and wonder, "Am I missing something?" then they benefit.
Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
In Support of Other Fiction
- 01/12/2009 09:06:14 PM
2516 Views
- 01/12/2009 09:22:56 PM
1580 Views
- 01/12/2009 09:22:56 PM
1580 Views
Re:
- 01/12/2009 09:28:04 PM
1577 Views
- 01/12/2009 09:28:04 PM
1577 Views
you shouldn't feel the need to defend a non SF/F suggestion, just don't
- 03/12/2009 03:34:28 PM
1539 Views
Well, let me offer a diverging view on the topic of speculative fiction.
- 01/12/2009 09:46:35 PM
1507 Views
I would counter that the stripping away removes a level of reality.
- 01/12/2009 10:05:28 PM
1586 Views
That's a Slippery Slope Because You Could Argue On the Same Basis That All Fiction Does That.
- 01/12/2009 11:34:34 PM
1652 Views
I don't see the slippery slope, but rather, a confirmation of my original point.
- 02/12/2009 01:41:24 AM
1565 Views
perhaps some university will do a study
- 03/12/2009 03:55:54 PM
1552 Views
I'd like to see it
- 03/12/2009 09:15:12 PM
1568 Views
I Think I'll Post a Thread on This.
- 03/12/2009 06:47:05 PM
1521 Views
I'd like to see it.
- 03/12/2009 09:23:07 PM
1615 Views
Regarding depth in Jordan
- 03/12/2009 09:31:19 PM
1560 Views
I was thinking about that too
- 03/12/2009 10:05:40 PM
1538 Views
Re: I was thinking about that too
- 03/12/2009 10:09:26 PM
1607 Views
Destroying the Wheel is meaningless.
- 03/12/2009 10:18:08 PM
1481 Views
Re: Destroying the Wheel is meaningless.
- 03/12/2009 10:30:15 PM
1554 Views
It would. Destroying the Wheel would likely make him a Buddhist.
- 03/12/2009 10:51:17 PM
1511 Views
I Totally Missed That.
- 04/12/2009 10:45:56 PM
1637 Views
- 04/12/2009 10:45:56 PM
1637 Views
Re: I Totally Missed That.
- 04/12/2009 10:47:59 PM
1559 Views
- 04/12/2009 10:47:59 PM
1559 Views
I Don't Believe It Cursory, But Comparative.
- 04/12/2009 11:29:36 PM
1700 Views
Re: Well, let me offer a diverging view on the topic of speculative fiction.
- 02/12/2009 12:28:30 AM
1536 Views
I find Michel Houellebecq to be one of the most intriguing writers of our time
- 01/12/2009 11:14:05 PM
1608 Views
wait! there's somebody "dirtier" than Piers Anthony or Philip Jose Farmer???
- 03/12/2009 04:00:28 PM
1606 Views
Nice post.
- 02/12/2009 12:03:09 AM
1655 Views
I guess I'll break my silence after almost a month and a half...
- 02/12/2009 12:23:07 AM
1610 Views
- 02/12/2009 12:23:07 AM
1610 Views
Popcorn?
- 02/12/2009 12:31:44 AM
1598 Views
I'm glad I could drive you from your Carthusian retreat, Larry
- 02/12/2009 01:58:49 AM
1581 Views
- 02/12/2009 01:58:49 AM
1581 Views
It won't last for long - have too many things still to deal with in my life
- 02/12/2009 02:36:15 AM
1608 Views
- 02/12/2009 02:36:15 AM
1608 Views
That's too bad. I'll have to learn monasterial sign language to continue a dialogue.
- 02/12/2009 03:49:01 AM
1499 Views
I concur
- 02/12/2009 12:27:13 AM
1505 Views
I like your framing of the issue (and Shannara is the Taco Bell of writing).
- 02/12/2009 02:03:51 AM
1592 Views
Am i the only one who reads books for fun?
- 02/12/2009 12:33:52 AM
1600 Views
I certainly didn't read The Lost Symbol for ANY cultural, intellectual or edifying reason.
- 02/12/2009 02:05:45 AM
1537 Views
Of course not. Personally, I don't touch anything other than mind candy when I'm in school,
- 02/12/2009 03:29:23 AM
1538 Views
one of the things that is important to me in books/shows
- 03/12/2009 05:20:29 PM
1436 Views
WoT has decent characterization, though a little overwrought. Harrington... not so much.
- 04/12/2009 04:26:43 AM
1708 Views
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is a science fiction/fantasy movie.
- 02/12/2009 12:54:08 AM
1590 Views
Reading only speculative literature is limiting and monotonous.
- 02/12/2009 02:09:42 AM
1616 Views
I was going to say exactly that about "real" literature: monotonous and limiting.
- 02/12/2009 01:57:49 PM
1572 Views
I would not disagree with you if you said that.
- 02/12/2009 02:27:08 PM
1469 Views
Most non-speculative fiction is fluff as well though.
- 03/12/2009 05:38:32 PM
1456 Views
Which brings us back to my point.
- 03/12/2009 08:04:24 PM
1555 Views
I would like to see the study and statistics that produced this answer.
- 04/12/2009 05:24:02 PM
1446 Views
Re: I would like to see the study and statistics that produced this answer.
- 04/12/2009 10:42:33 PM
1469 Views
Actually, it is a film that does not fit neatly into one category
- 02/12/2009 11:16:20 AM
1567 Views
Science Fiction is the most PERTINANT form of fiction in the world today
- 02/12/2009 12:57:19 AM
1586 Views
"Pertinent", not "Pertinant". If it weren't in all caps I'd have ignored it this time.
- 02/12/2009 02:13:36 AM
1572 Views
SF&F and 'real literature' are not mutually exclusive
- 02/12/2009 01:19:05 AM
1544 Views
So why don't we occasionally focus on "real" books that are technically spec fiction?
- 02/12/2009 01:25:04 AM
1466 Views
Why must we limit our focus in that way?
- 02/12/2009 02:20:11 AM
1501 Views
I don't see it as limiting or forcing.
- 02/12/2009 03:16:07 AM
1484 Views
"Elite club" or "elitist clique"?
- 02/12/2009 03:52:11 AM
1462 Views
- 02/12/2009 03:52:11 AM
1462 Views
Elite club is how we midwestern rednecks refer to Elitist Clique. *chews on a piece of hay*
- 02/12/2009 02:52:01 PM
1677 Views
I was born in the Midwest.
- 02/12/2009 03:01:36 PM
1498 Views
I know.
- 02/12/2009 03:12:05 PM
1504 Views
...!
- 02/12/2009 03:17:57 PM
1463 Views
Admit it. You know what I'm talking about.
- 02/12/2009 03:29:31 PM
1545 Views
Re: Admit it. You know what I'm talking about.
- 02/12/2009 03:31:26 PM
1460 Views
Huh! I really didn't think of you as being a masochist.
- 02/12/2009 01:51:55 AM
1492 Views
Read what you like to read.
- 02/12/2009 04:18:53 AM
1630 Views
I'll super size you. Fine. *NM*
- 02/12/2009 04:32:58 AM
749 Views
Oh noes! I'm getting word-fat!
- 02/12/2009 04:59:05 AM
1514 Views
I seem to have struck a nerve.
- 02/12/2009 05:20:27 AM
1536 Views
Apparently not the nerve you think, though.
- 02/12/2009 06:42:02 AM
1602 Views
Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure.
- 02/12/2009 02:13:10 PM
1565 Views
Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure.
- 02/12/2009 09:40:28 PM
1604 Views
I really did get under your skin
- 02/12/2009 09:58:18 PM
1424 Views
Tom as much as you raise some great points, you are being a condescending ass.
- 03/12/2009 04:26:27 AM
1496 Views
You're entitled to your opinion. I don't care.
- 03/12/2009 04:51:18 AM
1475 Views
I keep replying. It's like a sickness.
- 03/12/2009 05:15:28 AM
1488 Views
Hm.
- 02/12/2009 06:58:56 AM
2100 Views
Re-read my exact point.
- 02/12/2009 02:18:20 PM
1434 Views
No. Some kind of reading is indeed essential.
- 02/12/2009 02:28:22 PM
1579 Views
There may have been an assumption about literature due to the reason for the post.
- 02/12/2009 02:37:47 PM
1523 Views
Somehow I get the feeling that this post hasn't caused quite as much controversy
- 02/12/2009 06:53:18 AM
1622 Views
As I see it...
- 02/12/2009 11:38:07 AM
1504 Views
Yep.
- 02/12/2009 02:18:22 PM
1657 Views
Re: Yep.
- 02/12/2009 03:35:38 PM
1517 Views
Euripides was poorly received, initially.
- 02/12/2009 03:57:58 PM
1438 Views
I wasn't looking to generate controversy
- 02/12/2009 02:19:13 PM
1618 Views
Well... then I'm going to have to agree with Craig a bit.
- 02/12/2009 02:32:59 PM
1620 Views
Well, I was being somewhat denigrating. "Unnecessarily" or not is a matter of debate.
- 02/12/2009 02:40:29 PM
1465 Views
Well, it's only "unnecessary" if you don't want people to be turned off of your message immediately. *NM*
- 02/12/2009 09:42:46 PM
732 Views
Judging from the responses, most people weren't turned off immediately.
- 02/12/2009 09:59:35 PM
1451 Views
All reading of fiction is a diversion by the very nature of the activity.
- 02/12/2009 03:43:05 PM
1495 Views
Diversion from direct action, yes. Diversion from reality, no.
- 02/12/2009 04:15:48 PM
1468 Views
I maintain that all acts of reading fiction are a diversion from reality/ the realistic
- 02/12/2009 05:43:16 PM
1502 Views
It seems a regressive argument to me.
- 03/12/2009 01:18:02 AM
1436 Views
You're playing a game.
- 03/12/2009 03:40:14 PM
1541 Views
I fundamentally agree with much of what you're saying, but there is a distinction.
- 03/12/2009 06:44:02 PM
1573 Views
Spec fic is perhaps at it's best in autocracies?
- 02/12/2009 04:10:56 PM
1397 Views
Bulgakov
- 02/12/2009 04:25:17 PM
1530 Views
I've only read the first chapter of M&M.
- 02/12/2009 04:36:09 PM
1491 Views
Re: I've only read the first chapter of M&M.
- 02/12/2009 04:40:16 PM
1392 Views
Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me.
- 02/12/2009 05:17:31 PM
1454 Views
Re: Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me.
- 02/12/2009 05:40:16 PM
1492 Views
I suppose.
- 02/12/2009 06:26:30 PM
1465 Views
Re: I suppose.
- 02/12/2009 07:25:26 PM
1490 Views
This was something I was exploring earlier.
- 02/12/2009 04:34:41 PM
1595 Views
Funny thing about the hivemind antagonist.
- 02/12/2009 05:13:30 PM
1508 Views
I didn't see the zombies reading speculative fiction
- 02/12/2009 05:30:26 PM
1575 Views
- 02/12/2009 05:30:26 PM
1575 Views
Oh, they prefer Clive Cussler.
- 02/12/2009 06:23:42 PM
1524 Views
There's an interesting book in Russian that might be translated somewhere.
- 02/12/2009 10:02:48 PM
1546 Views
i think it comes more down to quality than genre.
- 02/12/2009 04:55:20 PM
1510 Views
I disagree with the ultimate conclusion but agree with many of your points.
- 02/12/2009 05:43:04 PM
1509 Views
the illiad is a classic
- 02/12/2009 06:35:24 PM
1510 Views
There's only one "L" in Iliad
- 02/12/2009 08:18:38 PM
1473 Views
It took me a few minutes to agree
- 02/12/2009 07:04:59 PM
1483 Views
Well, I'm glad if you got something out of the post!
- 02/12/2009 09:13:26 PM
1482 Views
- 02/12/2009 09:13:26 PM
1482 Views
Many people have mentioned that there's quite a bit of good sff lit out there and you seem to agree.
- 02/12/2009 07:33:42 PM
1562 Views
The website is called "Read and Find Out". It doesn't specify what we're supposed to read.
- 02/12/2009 08:42:19 PM
1556 Views
- 02/12/2009 08:42:19 PM
1556 Views
Anti the idea ? I see no evidence for this.
- 02/12/2009 09:50:37 PM
1504 Views
Heh
- 02/12/2009 09:56:30 PM
1511 Views
I have a few objections.
- 03/12/2009 12:24:43 AM
1505 Views
where else should we talk about it?
- 03/12/2009 12:37:26 AM
1502 Views
There's a difference between having threads about it and focusing the official book club on it.
- 03/12/2009 12:40:53 AM
1564 Views
This is the Sci-Fi and Fantasy Board for site optimization purposes.
- 03/12/2009 01:07:39 AM
14485 Views
random thoughts stole my subject line
- 03/12/2009 01:56:07 AM
1574 Views
I think I could agree with a "comfort food" analogy
- 03/12/2009 02:12:01 AM
1532 Views
That's it
- 03/12/2009 04:02:28 AM
1621 Views
- 03/12/2009 04:02:28 AM
1621 Views
Question: is it really science fiction without one of the following:
- 03/12/2009 05:13:21 AM
1504 Views
technically speaking, fantasy is classed as a sub heading under science fiction. *NM*
- 03/12/2009 02:51:12 PM
659 Views
Yes, it is but actually...
- 03/12/2009 09:31:44 PM
1474 Views
But Dan Brown rocks da house!!!
*NM*
- 03/12/2009 02:16:47 AM
762 Views
*NM*
- 03/12/2009 02:16:47 AM
762 Views
another thing wrong with your argument
- 03/12/2009 03:30:19 PM
1544 Views
Absolutely not. And, as I said before, there's only one "L" in Iliad.
- 03/12/2009 06:53:35 PM
1320 Views
sorry about my atrocious spelling
(including the one on pertinent)
- 03/12/2009 07:14:59 PM
1597 Views
(including the one on pertinent)
- 03/12/2009 07:14:59 PM
1597 Views
is it just me, or is this now the largest post/thread yet on RAFO.com??? 168 replies so far! *NM*
- 03/12/2009 05:03:25 PM
702 Views
Congratulations on the replies count
- 03/12/2009 09:30:41 PM
1607 Views
That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree.
- 03/12/2009 10:50:29 PM
1561 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree.
- 04/12/2009 07:44:56 PM
1592 Views
But the objective truth of a setting can be measured.
- 04/12/2009 10:37:10 PM
1479 Views
But does it make any difference in the objective value of the book?
- 06/12/2009 09:35:59 AM
1626 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree.
- 04/12/2009 10:25:08 PM
1505 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree.
- 06/12/2009 09:36:11 AM
1501 Views
I've obviously missed the show here...
- 04/12/2009 12:14:30 AM
1448 Views
I'm not sure that's right. This thing just keeps growing.
- 04/12/2009 12:46:24 AM
1556 Views
What, your penis?
- 06/12/2009 02:40:09 AM
1495 Views
Don't you know it!
- 06/12/2009 03:28:16 PM
1362 Views
- 06/12/2009 03:28:16 PM
1362 Views
You talk the talk, that's for sure.
- 07/12/2009 08:14:41 PM
1514 Views
- 07/12/2009 08:14:41 PM
1514 Views
Metaphor versus literalism
- 04/12/2009 05:42:03 PM
1550 Views
Metaphor divorced from the reality runs risks, however.
- 04/12/2009 10:25:47 PM
1425 Views
Honestly, the moral can always be dismissed as inapplicable if you want to dismiss it.
- 05/12/2009 12:16:39 AM
1445 Views
While that's true, it's much harder to just dismiss Mockingbird.
- 05/12/2009 03:57:42 AM
1425 Views
Then why read fiction at all? It's all a diversion.
- 05/12/2009 04:16:06 PM
1462 Views
I think people should read non-fiction, and The Nine Hundred Days is an excellent book.
- 05/12/2009 04:41:50 PM
1512 Views
aha. but.
- 07/12/2009 03:56:48 PM
1687 Views
