I don't see the slippery slope, but rather, a confirmation of my original point.
Tom Send a noteboard - 02/12/2009 01:41:24 AM
As the work puts more and more distance between itself and reality, the risk of becoming simply a "diversion" increases. Certainly, the reader should be on the lookout for deeper messages, but that having been said, it's hard to really expect a deeper message from a lot of authors in the genre.
Jordan certainly provided a diversion and little more. The interesting thing is that Sanderson's novels show a much higher level of insight and thought, and so the series might end a bit "deeper", so to speak, than it would have if Jordan had written it.
To take the analogy of dwarves and racism, while such a story could prove a point, it also distances people from the historical realities of racism in the real world, which robs the issue of much of its complexity. On the one hand, it may make certain ideas about the inherent injustice in racism plain to people who wouldn't have thought about it that way, but on the other hand, many could dismiss it or see it as inapplicable to a real-world situation where they or their friends may be more emotionally involved. Of course, it might be very interesting to read.
The real point of this post is to try to encourage people to go beyond reading simply fantasy and science fiction because an incomparably large portion of it is little more than diversion. If it stirred a healthy debate, all the better. If people start to analyse their reading choices and wonder, "Am I missing something?" then they benefit.
Jordan certainly provided a diversion and little more. The interesting thing is that Sanderson's novels show a much higher level of insight and thought, and so the series might end a bit "deeper", so to speak, than it would have if Jordan had written it.
To take the analogy of dwarves and racism, while such a story could prove a point, it also distances people from the historical realities of racism in the real world, which robs the issue of much of its complexity. On the one hand, it may make certain ideas about the inherent injustice in racism plain to people who wouldn't have thought about it that way, but on the other hand, many could dismiss it or see it as inapplicable to a real-world situation where they or their friends may be more emotionally involved. Of course, it might be very interesting to read.
The real point of this post is to try to encourage people to go beyond reading simply fantasy and science fiction because an incomparably large portion of it is little more than diversion. If it stirred a healthy debate, all the better. If people start to analyse their reading choices and wonder, "Am I missing something?" then they benefit.
Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
In Support of Other Fiction
- 01/12/2009 09:06:14 PM
2282 Views
- 01/12/2009 09:22:56 PM
1329 Views
- 01/12/2009 09:22:56 PM
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Re:
- 01/12/2009 09:28:04 PM
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- 01/12/2009 09:28:04 PM
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you shouldn't feel the need to defend a non SF/F suggestion, just don't
- 03/12/2009 03:34:28 PM
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Well, let me offer a diverging view on the topic of speculative fiction.
- 01/12/2009 09:46:35 PM
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I would counter that the stripping away removes a level of reality.
- 01/12/2009 10:05:28 PM
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That's a Slippery Slope Because You Could Argue On the Same Basis That All Fiction Does That.
- 01/12/2009 11:34:34 PM
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I don't see the slippery slope, but rather, a confirmation of my original point.
- 02/12/2009 01:41:24 AM
1318 Views
perhaps some university will do a study
- 03/12/2009 03:55:54 PM
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I'd like to see it
- 03/12/2009 09:15:12 PM
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I Think I'll Post a Thread on This.
- 03/12/2009 06:47:05 PM
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I'd like to see it.
- 03/12/2009 09:23:07 PM
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Regarding depth in Jordan
- 03/12/2009 09:31:19 PM
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I was thinking about that too
- 03/12/2009 10:05:40 PM
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Re: I was thinking about that too
- 03/12/2009 10:09:26 PM
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Destroying the Wheel is meaningless.
- 03/12/2009 10:18:08 PM
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Re: Destroying the Wheel is meaningless.
- 03/12/2009 10:30:15 PM
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It would. Destroying the Wheel would likely make him a Buddhist.
- 03/12/2009 10:51:17 PM
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I Totally Missed That.
- 04/12/2009 10:45:56 PM
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- 04/12/2009 10:45:56 PM
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Re: I Totally Missed That.
- 04/12/2009 10:47:59 PM
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- 04/12/2009 10:47:59 PM
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I Don't Believe It Cursory, But Comparative.
- 04/12/2009 11:29:36 PM
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Re: Well, let me offer a diverging view on the topic of speculative fiction.
- 02/12/2009 12:28:30 AM
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I find Michel Houellebecq to be one of the most intriguing writers of our time
- 01/12/2009 11:14:05 PM
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wait! there's somebody "dirtier" than Piers Anthony or Philip Jose Farmer???
- 03/12/2009 04:00:28 PM
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Nice post.
- 02/12/2009 12:03:09 AM
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I guess I'll break my silence after almost a month and a half...
- 02/12/2009 12:23:07 AM
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- 02/12/2009 12:23:07 AM
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Popcorn?
- 02/12/2009 12:31:44 AM
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I'm glad I could drive you from your Carthusian retreat, Larry
- 02/12/2009 01:58:49 AM
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- 02/12/2009 01:58:49 AM
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It won't last for long - have too many things still to deal with in my life
- 02/12/2009 02:36:15 AM
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- 02/12/2009 02:36:15 AM
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That's too bad. I'll have to learn monasterial sign language to continue a dialogue.
- 02/12/2009 03:49:01 AM
1269 Views
I concur
- 02/12/2009 12:27:13 AM
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I like your framing of the issue (and Shannara is the Taco Bell of writing).
- 02/12/2009 02:03:51 AM
1348 Views
Am i the only one who reads books for fun?
- 02/12/2009 12:33:52 AM
1377 Views
I certainly didn't read The Lost Symbol for ANY cultural, intellectual or edifying reason.
- 02/12/2009 02:05:45 AM
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Of course not. Personally, I don't touch anything other than mind candy when I'm in school,
- 02/12/2009 03:29:23 AM
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one of the things that is important to me in books/shows
- 03/12/2009 05:20:29 PM
1200 Views
WoT has decent characterization, though a little overwrought. Harrington... not so much.
- 04/12/2009 04:26:43 AM
1458 Views
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is a science fiction/fantasy movie.
- 02/12/2009 12:54:08 AM
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Reading only speculative literature is limiting and monotonous.
- 02/12/2009 02:09:42 AM
1371 Views
I was going to say exactly that about "real" literature: monotonous and limiting.
- 02/12/2009 01:57:49 PM
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I would not disagree with you if you said that.
- 02/12/2009 02:27:08 PM
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Most non-speculative fiction is fluff as well though.
- 03/12/2009 05:38:32 PM
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Which brings us back to my point.
- 03/12/2009 08:04:24 PM
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I would like to see the study and statistics that produced this answer.
- 04/12/2009 05:24:02 PM
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Re: I would like to see the study and statistics that produced this answer.
- 04/12/2009 10:42:33 PM
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Actually, it is a film that does not fit neatly into one category
- 02/12/2009 11:16:20 AM
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Science Fiction is the most PERTINANT form of fiction in the world today
- 02/12/2009 12:57:19 AM
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"Pertinent", not "Pertinant". If it weren't in all caps I'd have ignored it this time.
- 02/12/2009 02:13:36 AM
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SF&F and 'real literature' are not mutually exclusive
- 02/12/2009 01:19:05 AM
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So why don't we occasionally focus on "real" books that are technically spec fiction?
- 02/12/2009 01:25:04 AM
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Why must we limit our focus in that way?
- 02/12/2009 02:20:11 AM
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I don't see it as limiting or forcing.
- 02/12/2009 03:16:07 AM
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"Elite club" or "elitist clique"?
- 02/12/2009 03:52:11 AM
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- 02/12/2009 03:52:11 AM
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Elite club is how we midwestern rednecks refer to Elitist Clique. *chews on a piece of hay*
- 02/12/2009 02:52:01 PM
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I was born in the Midwest.
- 02/12/2009 03:01:36 PM
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I know.
- 02/12/2009 03:12:05 PM
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...!
- 02/12/2009 03:17:57 PM
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Admit it. You know what I'm talking about.
- 02/12/2009 03:29:31 PM
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Re: Admit it. You know what I'm talking about.
- 02/12/2009 03:31:26 PM
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Huh! I really didn't think of you as being a masochist.
- 02/12/2009 01:51:55 AM
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Read what you like to read.
- 02/12/2009 04:18:53 AM
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I'll super size you. Fine. *NM*
- 02/12/2009 04:32:58 AM
615 Views
Oh noes! I'm getting word-fat!
- 02/12/2009 04:59:05 AM
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I seem to have struck a nerve.
- 02/12/2009 05:20:27 AM
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Apparently not the nerve you think, though.
- 02/12/2009 06:42:02 AM
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Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure.
- 02/12/2009 02:13:10 PM
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Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure.
- 02/12/2009 09:40:28 PM
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I really did get under your skin
- 02/12/2009 09:58:18 PM
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Tom as much as you raise some great points, you are being a condescending ass.
- 03/12/2009 04:26:27 AM
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You're entitled to your opinion. I don't care.
- 03/12/2009 04:51:18 AM
1224 Views
I keep replying. It's like a sickness.
- 03/12/2009 05:15:28 AM
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Hm.
- 02/12/2009 06:58:56 AM
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Re-read my exact point.
- 02/12/2009 02:18:20 PM
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No. Some kind of reading is indeed essential.
- 02/12/2009 02:28:22 PM
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There may have been an assumption about literature due to the reason for the post.
- 02/12/2009 02:37:47 PM
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Somehow I get the feeling that this post hasn't caused quite as much controversy
- 02/12/2009 06:53:18 AM
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As I see it...
- 02/12/2009 11:38:07 AM
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Yep.
- 02/12/2009 02:18:22 PM
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Re: Yep.
- 02/12/2009 03:35:38 PM
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Euripides was poorly received, initially.
- 02/12/2009 03:57:58 PM
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I wasn't looking to generate controversy
- 02/12/2009 02:19:13 PM
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Well... then I'm going to have to agree with Craig a bit.
- 02/12/2009 02:32:59 PM
1370 Views
Well, I was being somewhat denigrating. "Unnecessarily" or not is a matter of debate.
- 02/12/2009 02:40:29 PM
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Well, it's only "unnecessary" if you don't want people to be turned off of your message immediately. *NM*
- 02/12/2009 09:42:46 PM
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Judging from the responses, most people weren't turned off immediately.
- 02/12/2009 09:59:35 PM
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All reading of fiction is a diversion by the very nature of the activity.
- 02/12/2009 03:43:05 PM
1241 Views
Diversion from direct action, yes. Diversion from reality, no.
- 02/12/2009 04:15:48 PM
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I maintain that all acts of reading fiction are a diversion from reality/ the realistic
- 02/12/2009 05:43:16 PM
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It seems a regressive argument to me.
- 03/12/2009 01:18:02 AM
1187 Views
You're playing a game.
- 03/12/2009 03:40:14 PM
1285 Views
I fundamentally agree with much of what you're saying, but there is a distinction.
- 03/12/2009 06:44:02 PM
1276 Views
Spec fic is perhaps at it's best in autocracies?
- 02/12/2009 04:10:56 PM
1175 Views
Bulgakov
- 02/12/2009 04:25:17 PM
1270 Views
I've only read the first chapter of M&M.
- 02/12/2009 04:36:09 PM
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Re: I've only read the first chapter of M&M.
- 02/12/2009 04:40:16 PM
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Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me.
- 02/12/2009 05:17:31 PM
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Re: Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me.
- 02/12/2009 05:40:16 PM
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I suppose.
- 02/12/2009 06:26:30 PM
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Re: I suppose.
- 02/12/2009 07:25:26 PM
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This was something I was exploring earlier.
- 02/12/2009 04:34:41 PM
1302 Views
Funny thing about the hivemind antagonist.
- 02/12/2009 05:13:30 PM
1249 Views
I didn't see the zombies reading speculative fiction
- 02/12/2009 05:30:26 PM
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- 02/12/2009 05:30:26 PM
1329 Views
Oh, they prefer Clive Cussler.
- 02/12/2009 06:23:42 PM
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There's an interesting book in Russian that might be translated somewhere.
- 02/12/2009 10:02:48 PM
1312 Views
i think it comes more down to quality than genre.
- 02/12/2009 04:55:20 PM
1272 Views
I disagree with the ultimate conclusion but agree with many of your points.
- 02/12/2009 05:43:04 PM
1232 Views
the illiad is a classic
- 02/12/2009 06:35:24 PM
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There's only one "L" in Iliad
- 02/12/2009 08:18:38 PM
1227 Views
It took me a few minutes to agree
- 02/12/2009 07:04:59 PM
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Well, I'm glad if you got something out of the post!
- 02/12/2009 09:13:26 PM
1248 Views
- 02/12/2009 09:13:26 PM
1248 Views
Many people have mentioned that there's quite a bit of good sff lit out there and you seem to agree.
- 02/12/2009 07:33:42 PM
1337 Views
The website is called "Read and Find Out". It doesn't specify what we're supposed to read.
- 02/12/2009 08:42:19 PM
1312 Views
- 02/12/2009 08:42:19 PM
1312 Views
Anti the idea ? I see no evidence for this.
- 02/12/2009 09:50:37 PM
1262 Views
Heh
- 02/12/2009 09:56:30 PM
1260 Views
I have a few objections.
- 03/12/2009 12:24:43 AM
1296 Views
where else should we talk about it?
- 03/12/2009 12:37:26 AM
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There's a difference between having threads about it and focusing the official book club on it.
- 03/12/2009 12:40:53 AM
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This is the Sci-Fi and Fantasy Board for site optimization purposes.
- 03/12/2009 01:07:39 AM
14257 Views
random thoughts stole my subject line
- 03/12/2009 01:56:07 AM
1302 Views
I think I could agree with a "comfort food" analogy
- 03/12/2009 02:12:01 AM
1296 Views
That's it
- 03/12/2009 04:02:28 AM
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- 03/12/2009 04:02:28 AM
1367 Views
Question: is it really science fiction without one of the following:
- 03/12/2009 05:13:21 AM
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technically speaking, fantasy is classed as a sub heading under science fiction. *NM*
- 03/12/2009 02:51:12 PM
533 Views
Yes, it is but actually...
- 03/12/2009 09:31:44 PM
1267 Views
But Dan Brown rocks da house!!!
*NM*
- 03/12/2009 02:16:47 AM
640 Views
*NM*
- 03/12/2009 02:16:47 AM
640 Views
another thing wrong with your argument
- 03/12/2009 03:30:19 PM
1257 Views
Absolutely not. And, as I said before, there's only one "L" in Iliad.
- 03/12/2009 06:53:35 PM
1073 Views
sorry about my atrocious spelling
(including the one on pertinent)
- 03/12/2009 07:14:59 PM
1372 Views
(including the one on pertinent)
- 03/12/2009 07:14:59 PM
1372 Views
is it just me, or is this now the largest post/thread yet on RAFO.com??? 168 replies so far! *NM*
- 03/12/2009 05:03:25 PM
571 Views
Congratulations on the replies count
- 03/12/2009 09:30:41 PM
1370 Views
That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree.
- 03/12/2009 10:50:29 PM
1290 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree.
- 04/12/2009 07:44:56 PM
1326 Views
But the objective truth of a setting can be measured.
- 04/12/2009 10:37:10 PM
1228 Views
But does it make any difference in the objective value of the book?
- 06/12/2009 09:35:59 AM
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Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree.
- 04/12/2009 10:25:08 PM
1255 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree.
- 06/12/2009 09:36:11 AM
1249 Views
I've obviously missed the show here...
- 04/12/2009 12:14:30 AM
1207 Views
I'm not sure that's right. This thing just keeps growing.
- 04/12/2009 12:46:24 AM
1323 Views
What, your penis?
- 06/12/2009 02:40:09 AM
1231 Views
Don't you know it!
- 06/12/2009 03:28:16 PM
1116 Views
- 06/12/2009 03:28:16 PM
1116 Views
You talk the talk, that's for sure.
- 07/12/2009 08:14:41 PM
1266 Views
- 07/12/2009 08:14:41 PM
1266 Views
Metaphor versus literalism
- 04/12/2009 05:42:03 PM
1293 Views
Metaphor divorced from the reality runs risks, however.
- 04/12/2009 10:25:47 PM
1208 Views
Honestly, the moral can always be dismissed as inapplicable if you want to dismiss it.
- 05/12/2009 12:16:39 AM
1234 Views
While that's true, it's much harder to just dismiss Mockingbird.
- 05/12/2009 03:57:42 AM
1197 Views
Then why read fiction at all? It's all a diversion.
- 05/12/2009 04:16:06 PM
1217 Views
I think people should read non-fiction, and The Nine Hundred Days is an excellent book.
- 05/12/2009 04:41:50 PM
1255 Views
aha. but.
- 07/12/2009 03:56:48 PM
1425 Views
