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I concur Camilla Send a noteboard - 02/12/2009 12:27:13 AM
but again I would argue that this is true of most genre fiction. The good stuff is what transcends the genre, what plays with it to make something new. Not what repeats the tired old trends. That is why Tolkien works, but Shannara doesn't (as I see it).

In Support of Other Fiction

I’ve made a great number of statements at this website (if written threads can be properly termed “statements”) which convey my displeasure with the obsession that many visiting RAFO seem to have with science fiction and fantasy. It would be hypocritical to pretend that I do not enjoy the occasional science fiction or fantasy book – indeed, if that were the case, how did I end up here in the first place?

My position is not that science fiction and fantasy are not worth reading. I read just this year, with much pleasure, The Gathering Storm, the Mistborn trilogy and Warbreaker. I have read Tolkien, C.S. Lewis, Lloyd Alexander, H.P. Lovecraft, Clark Ashton Smith, Orson Scott Card, Douglas Adams, J.K. Rowling and other writers of fantasy and science fiction and will continue to do so.


Tolkien, Lovecraft, Adams and Rowling all transcend genre, or found the genre (which is related). The others I don't know, so I can't comment.

However, I will repeat a statement that I’ve made several times in the past: Reading science fiction and fantasy is sort of like eating fast food. There’s nothing wrong with it in moderation, but when it dominates what you read, you sit back after the fact, disgusted with yourself and say, “What have I done?”

The reason is that most speculative fiction (and I’ll use that term since it is a more broad and inclusive one than “fantasy and science fiction”) is essentially a diversion, to literature what a Hollywood blockbuster is to cinema. To call it “escapism” risks raising a whole host of moot issues and ignores the fact that many people need such an escape for psychological and/or emotional reasons. However, a diversion of any sort does exactly what its title proclaims – it diverts people from their problems.


I don't think it is so much about escapism as it is about comfort zones. We feel safe when we read what we recognise, what does not challenge our way of thinking. Your analogy of fast food is actually quite good. It feels good at the moment, but it doesn't keep you healthy, and a steady acceptance of pre-arranged patterns leads to the inability to question what we are told. This has severe political implications.

Diversion can be helpful, at times necessary. The problem arises when the diversion is constant and unrelenting. Diversions cannot help people solve underlying problems in their lives. A person engaging in diversion is not addressing the fundamental questions of existence in a meaningful way. There is no head-on confrontation with mortality, the double-edged sword of love, politics, religion or musings on other metaphysical questions. Diversion smacks of a furtive, secret love affair that a spouse engages in to avoid dealing with the spousal relationship on its own terms.

Speculative fiction can, in some cases, be more than diversion. The dystopian novel is a prime example of this, where the speculative world serves as a warning for present society to correct perceived mistakes in ideological, economic or sociopolitical trends.


Indeed. The dystopian novel isn't content with providing a comforting recurrence of patterns, but relies on shattering our accepted notions.

Tolkien is also good example of speculative fiction that comes close to realistic fiction in its themes and motifs. When the main story of The Lord of the Rings is set aside, much of what remains is a corpus of stories and fragments of stories dealing with love, loss, failure and tragedy, with hubris and resentment and the scent of real life. His Lay of Leithian emulates the best traditions of classic epic poetry. Even so, however, his works still fall somewhat short of the mark. Talking about, for example, the “hubris of Boromir” as a parallel to the hubris of Achilles in the Iliad just doesn’t work. The suicide of Dido from the Aeneid has no parallel in Tolkien. However, Tolkien resembles traditional literature in that he addresses the human condition with all of its neuroses and insecurities.


I don't agree that realistic fiction is necessarily the best.
As for Tolkien, he must be seen in context. It is the counter-reaction to modernism. Both modernist writing and fantasy of this type shows up as a way of coping with the first world war. As such it is quite spectacular. It is when you see it through the horrid copies that it becomes genre literature.

Traditional literature is, first and foremost, about what it means to be human. Fundamental questions about morality, existence, and our lives are raised, and in some cases solutions are proposed to the reader for approval or rejection. Ennui, nostalgia and loss are present. Good doesn’t always win, and characters with deep and well-developed personalities suffer. Fanciful Deus ex machina solutions aren’t available, or at least aren’t usually available. The anticipation of loss is real, and that loss usually then occurs as anticipated. It is because traditional literature addresses these points that it has meaning. We recognise it as real because we feel those things in our lives.

There’s nothing wrong with reading a thriller, or a murder mystery, or a science fiction book. Some even may pleasantly surprise the reader by having some deeper meaning. But we can’t just watch Meet the Parents or Die Hard XXV. Sometimes we need to watch Schindler’s List or Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. Diversions are useful, but not at the expense of growing intellectually, emotionally or psychologically.


I think it was Dostoyevski (more your favourite than mine, I suspect, but still...) who said that the emptier the mind, the less it feels the urge to be filled by anything.

I realise that I am inviting responses that state that Robert Jordan or George Martin aren’t “diversions” (they are) or responses along the lines of “I found deep meaning in X” where “X” can be virtually any series in print. While I further realise that “finding meaning” is a subjective term, objectively speaking it is precisely the “speculative” in speculative fiction that distances it from reality and from the reality of the human condition. One can argue over the level of “diversion” in a particular series, but the fundamental premise is that every now and then, people should read books that aren’t diversions in order to grow.


I disagree with this part. The speculative portion is not the problem. I see no problem in turning away from the realist novel, but I see horrible implications in this incessant repetition of patterns.
*MySmiley*
structured procrastinator
Reply to message
In Support of Other Fiction Tom - 01/12/2009 09:06:14 PM 2067 Views
Rebekah - 01/12/2009 09:22:56 PM 1137 Views
Re: Tom - 01/12/2009 09:28:04 PM 1115 Views
you shouldn't feel the need to defend a non SF/F suggestion, just don't imlad - 03/12/2009 03:34:28 PM 1139 Views
Wow...we were just Santified *NM* Tom - 03/12/2009 09:16:21 PM 562 Views
Well, let me offer a diverging view on the topic of speculative fiction. jh - 01/12/2009 09:46:35 PM 1043 Views
I would counter that the stripping away removes a level of reality. Tom - 01/12/2009 10:05:28 PM 1128 Views
That's a Slippery Slope Because You Could Argue On the Same Basis That All Fiction Does That. The Name With No Man - 01/12/2009 11:34:34 PM 1181 Views
I don't see the slippery slope, but rather, a confirmation of my original point. Tom - 02/12/2009 01:41:24 AM 1126 Views
perhaps some university will do a study imlad - 03/12/2009 03:55:54 PM 1083 Views
I'd like to see it Tom - 03/12/2009 09:15:12 PM 1134 Views
I'll get to it once I finish my thesis Camilla - 03/12/2009 09:56:29 PM 1074 Views
If it looks like crap and smells like crap... Tom - 03/12/2009 10:04:15 PM 1102 Views
I Think I'll Post a Thread on This. The Name With No Man - 03/12/2009 06:47:05 PM 1057 Views
I'd like to see it. Tom - 03/12/2009 09:23:07 PM 1100 Views
Regarding depth in Jordan Camilla - 03/12/2009 09:31:19 PM 1107 Views
I was thinking about that too Tom - 03/12/2009 10:05:40 PM 1084 Views
Re: I was thinking about that too Camilla - 03/12/2009 10:09:26 PM 1175 Views
Destroying the Wheel is meaningless. Tom - 03/12/2009 10:18:08 PM 1070 Views
Re: Destroying the Wheel is meaningless. Camilla - 03/12/2009 10:30:15 PM 1099 Views
It would. Destroying the Wheel would likely make him a Buddhist. Tom - 03/12/2009 10:51:17 PM 1081 Views
I Totally Missed That. Joel - 04/12/2009 10:45:56 PM 1154 Views
Re: I Totally Missed That. Camilla - 04/12/2009 10:47:59 PM 1137 Views
I Don't Believe It Cursory, But Comparative. The Name With No Man - 04/12/2009 11:29:36 PM 1227 Views
Publication bookend Y2K? Camilla - 05/12/2009 10:36:01 AM 1149 Views
They're Thick Bookends. The Name With No Man - 05/12/2009 06:12:06 PM 1082 Views
I'll Try to Have It Up Tomorrow Early. The Name With No Man - 04/12/2009 11:24:18 PM 1186 Views
Re: Well, let me offer a diverging view on the topic of speculative fiction. Camilla - 02/12/2009 12:28:30 AM 1096 Views
I like it. Ghavrel - 01/12/2009 10:28:48 PM 1097 Views
Thank you! Tom - 02/12/2009 01:43:05 AM 1244 Views
I find Michel Houellebecq to be one of the most intriguing writers of our time AgentOrange - 01/12/2009 11:14:05 PM 1191 Views
And, in recent memory, Orwell was a first-rate writer. Tom - 02/12/2009 01:44:29 AM 1179 Views
wait! there's somebody "dirtier" than Piers Anthony or Philip Jose Farmer??? imlad - 03/12/2009 04:00:28 PM 1145 Views
PJF is dirty? rebelaessedai - 04/12/2009 12:16:12 AM 1027 Views
Nice post. Legolas - 02/12/2009 12:03:09 AM 1194 Views
Perhaps you're right. Tom - 02/12/2009 01:47:10 AM 1063 Views
In its entirety? No. Legolas - 02/12/2009 02:00:10 PM 1106 Views
I agree! Dragonsworn - 02/12/2009 12:17:10 AM 1312 Views
Thank you! Tom - 02/12/2009 01:50:22 AM 1013 Views
I guess I'll break my silence after almost a month and a half... Larry - 02/12/2009 12:23:07 AM 1205 Views
Popcorn? Camilla - 02/12/2009 12:31:44 AM 1130 Views
Yes Larry - 02/12/2009 12:39:10 AM 1174 Views
Lovecraft? Camilla - 02/12/2009 12:51:55 AM 1163 Views
Re-read what I said Larry - 02/12/2009 12:55:08 AM 1232 Views
aahh Camilla - 02/12/2009 09:26:40 AM 1097 Views
I'm glad I could drive you from your Carthusian retreat, Larry Tom - 02/12/2009 01:58:49 AM 1125 Views
It won't last for long - have too many things still to deal with in my life Larry - 02/12/2009 02:36:15 AM 1124 Views
That's too bad. I'll have to learn monasterial sign language to continue a dialogue. Tom - 02/12/2009 03:49:01 AM 1082 Views
Well, I understand two out of those three languages Larry - 02/12/2009 03:56:00 AM 1096 Views
Larry, please tell me you weren't... imlad - 03/12/2009 04:33:32 PM 965 Views
I concur Camilla - 02/12/2009 12:27:13 AM 1088 Views
I like your framing of the issue (and Shannara is the Taco Bell of writing). Tom - 02/12/2009 02:03:51 AM 1129 Views
Thank you Camilla - 02/12/2009 09:30:42 AM 1082 Views
more like the mom&pop greasy-spoon diner of writing *NM* imlad - 03/12/2009 05:00:21 PM 522 Views
I'm going to put this in my sig, if you don't mind. Ghavrel - 02/12/2009 03:31:13 AM 1155 Views
hehehe Camilla - 02/12/2009 09:31:28 AM 1037 Views
Am i the only one who reads books for fun? Wibble - 02/12/2009 12:33:52 AM 1183 Views
There isn't necessarily a contradiction Camilla - 02/12/2009 12:38:43 AM 1115 Views
I certainly didn't read The Lost Symbol for ANY cultural, intellectual or edifying reason. Tom - 02/12/2009 02:05:45 AM 1088 Views
it didn't come across that way imlad - 03/12/2009 05:15:36 PM 1115 Views
Of course not. Personally, I don't touch anything other than mind candy when I'm in school, Ghavrel - 02/12/2009 03:29:23 AM 1056 Views
one of the things that is important to me in books/shows imlad - 03/12/2009 05:20:29 PM 989 Views
We agree! Camilla - 03/12/2009 08:03:00 PM 1091 Views
WoT has decent characterization, though a little overwrought. Harrington... not so much. Ghavrel - 04/12/2009 04:26:43 AM 1250 Views
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is a science fiction/fantasy movie. Aeryn - 02/12/2009 12:54:08 AM 1151 Views
i was gonna point that out. thnks. *NM* imlad - 02/12/2009 01:13:47 AM 471 Views
Reading only speculative literature is limiting and monotonous. Tom - 02/12/2009 02:09:42 AM 1184 Views
I was going to say exactly that about "real" literature: monotonous and limiting. Aeryn - 02/12/2009 01:57:49 PM 1084 Views
I think his point was that only SF/F wasn't good food. Rebekah - 02/12/2009 02:15:29 PM 1058 Views
I would not disagree with you if you said that. Tom - 02/12/2009 02:27:08 PM 1012 Views
Most non-speculative fiction is fluff as well though. Werthead - 03/12/2009 05:38:32 PM 1007 Views
hear hear!! I agree totally wert-man imlad - 03/12/2009 07:20:09 PM 1075 Views
Which brings us back to my point. Camilla - 03/12/2009 08:04:24 PM 1129 Views
I would like to see the study and statistics that produced this answer. Werthead - 04/12/2009 05:24:02 PM 1019 Views
Re: I would like to see the study and statistics that produced this answer. Camilla - 04/12/2009 10:42:33 PM 1042 Views
Actually, it is a film that does not fit neatly into one category Camilla - 02/12/2009 11:16:20 AM 1132 Views
Science Fiction is the most PERTINANT form of fiction in the world today imlad - 02/12/2009 12:57:19 AM 1083 Views
don't get me wrong imlad - 02/12/2009 01:28:08 AM 1114 Views
"Pertinent", not "Pertinant". If it weren't in all caps I'd have ignored it this time. Tom - 02/12/2009 02:13:36 AM 1119 Views
SF&F and 'real literature' are not mutually exclusive Werthead - 02/12/2009 01:19:05 AM 1075 Views
No, they are not Tom - 02/12/2009 02:18:53 AM 1088 Views
This line is a load of bull bme - 03/12/2009 02:39:53 PM 1192 Views
So why don't we occasionally focus on "real" books that are technically spec fiction? nossy - 02/12/2009 01:25:04 AM 1053 Views
Why must we limit our focus in that way? Tom - 02/12/2009 02:20:11 AM 1043 Views
I don't see it as limiting or forcing. nossy - 02/12/2009 03:16:07 AM 1066 Views
"Elite club" or "elitist clique"? Tom - 02/12/2009 03:52:11 AM 1047 Views
Either way, I want in. *NM* Camilla - 02/12/2009 11:33:52 AM 566 Views
Elite club is how we midwestern rednecks refer to Elitist Clique. *chews on a piece of hay* nossy - 02/12/2009 02:52:01 PM 1204 Views
I was born in the Midwest. Tom - 02/12/2009 03:01:36 PM 1113 Views
I know. nossy - 02/12/2009 03:12:05 PM 1045 Views
Green Acres in reverse, eh? Tom - 02/12/2009 03:38:09 PM 1079 Views
lmao Lupine - 02/12/2009 06:21:17 PM 1228 Views
*piledrivers you* nossy - 02/12/2009 06:28:02 PM 1011 Views
...! Camilla - 02/12/2009 03:17:57 PM 1061 Views
Admit it. You know what I'm talking about. Tom - 02/12/2009 03:29:31 PM 1069 Views
Re: Admit it. You know what I'm talking about. Camilla - 02/12/2009 03:31:26 PM 1018 Views
Vermont isn't in the Midwest. Tom - 02/12/2009 03:39:36 PM 1028 Views
Re: Vermont isn't in the Midwest. Camilla - 02/12/2009 03:42:47 PM 1062 Views
Huh! I really didn't think of you as being a masochist. Vodalus - 02/12/2009 01:51:55 AM 1026 Views
Thank you! Tom - 02/12/2009 02:21:00 AM 957 Views
Shitstorm! Vodalus - 02/12/2009 03:06:59 AM 1010 Views
Heh heh heh. Tom - 02/12/2009 03:45:40 AM 1056 Views
Read what you like to read. Craig - 02/12/2009 04:18:53 AM 1141 Views
I'll super size you. Fine. *NM* Tom - 02/12/2009 04:32:58 AM 532 Views
Oh noes! I'm getting word-fat! Craig - 02/12/2009 04:59:05 AM 1062 Views
I seem to have struck a nerve. Tom - 02/12/2009 05:20:27 AM 1096 Views
Apparently not the nerve you think, though. Craig - 02/12/2009 06:42:02 AM 1167 Views
Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. Tom - 02/12/2009 02:13:10 PM 1082 Views
Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. Camilla - 02/12/2009 03:26:59 PM 1092 Views
Agreed. Tom - 02/12/2009 03:30:50 PM 1009 Views
Re: Agreed. Camilla - 02/12/2009 03:32:06 PM 1004 Views
Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. Craig - 02/12/2009 09:40:28 PM 1134 Views
I really did get under your skin Tom - 02/12/2009 09:58:18 PM 1005 Views
Craig - 02/12/2009 10:06:46 PM 1003 Views
Tom as much as you raise some great points, you are being a condescending ass. lord-of-shadow - 03/12/2009 04:26:27 AM 1060 Views
You're entitled to your opinion. I don't care. Tom - 03/12/2009 04:51:18 AM 1042 Views
I keep replying. It's like a sickness. Craig - 03/12/2009 05:15:28 AM 1061 Views
Your subject line reinforces my opinion. Tom - 03/12/2009 05:31:50 AM 977 Views
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room. *NM* Ghavrel - 03/12/2009 07:21:05 AM 516 Views
LOL! rebelaessedai - 04/12/2009 12:21:36 AM 1019 Views
See, you just proved my point. Tom - 04/12/2009 12:39:59 AM 1063 Views
Hm. Lupine - 02/12/2009 06:58:56 AM 1662 Views
Re-read my exact point. Tom - 02/12/2009 02:18:20 PM 1018 Views
No. Some kind of reading is indeed essential. Lupine - 02/12/2009 02:28:22 PM 1174 Views
There may have been an assumption about literature due to the reason for the post. Tom - 02/12/2009 02:37:47 PM 1074 Views
Somehow I get the feeling that this post hasn't caused quite as much controversy Lupine - 02/12/2009 06:53:18 AM 1169 Views
As I see it... Camilla - 02/12/2009 11:38:07 AM 1049 Views
Yep. Lupine - 02/12/2009 02:18:22 PM 1213 Views
Re: Yep. Camilla - 02/12/2009 03:35:38 PM 1074 Views
Euripides was poorly received, initially. Tom - 02/12/2009 03:57:58 PM 981 Views
Re: Euripides was poorly received, initially. Camilla - 02/12/2009 04:00:35 PM 1010 Views
I know. Tom - 02/12/2009 04:18:16 PM 1073 Views
Re: I know. Camilla - 02/12/2009 04:23:14 PM 1011 Views
That is why he's so good, in my opinion. Lupine - 02/12/2009 06:15:45 PM 1170 Views
I wasn't looking to generate controversy Tom - 02/12/2009 02:19:13 PM 1170 Views
Well... then I'm going to have to agree with Craig a bit. Lupine - 02/12/2009 02:32:59 PM 1165 Views
Well, I was being somewhat denigrating. "Unnecessarily" or not is a matter of debate. Tom - 02/12/2009 02:40:29 PM 1030 Views
Well, it's only "unnecessary" if you don't want people to be turned off of your message immediately. *NM* Craig - 02/12/2009 09:42:46 PM 519 Views
Judging from the responses, most people weren't turned off immediately. Tom - 02/12/2009 09:59:35 PM 1018 Views
All reading of fiction is a diversion by the very nature of the activity. Jacob - 02/12/2009 03:43:05 PM 1072 Views
Diversion from direct action, yes. Diversion from reality, no. Tom - 02/12/2009 04:15:48 PM 1030 Views
I maintain that all acts of reading fiction are a diversion from reality/ the realistic Jacob - 02/12/2009 05:43:16 PM 1046 Views
It seems a regressive argument to me. Tom - 03/12/2009 01:18:02 AM 997 Views
You're playing a game. Jacob - 03/12/2009 03:40:14 PM 1078 Views
I like your response. *NM* Aeryn - 03/12/2009 05:37:09 PM 485 Views
I fundamentally agree with much of what you're saying, but there is a distinction. Tom - 03/12/2009 06:44:02 PM 1066 Views
Oh I concur on that distinction. Jacob - 04/12/2009 09:06:34 PM 1112 Views
Spec fic is perhaps at it's best in autocracies? Ouranid - 02/12/2009 04:10:56 PM 994 Views
Bulgakov Camilla - 02/12/2009 04:25:17 PM 1048 Views
I've only read the first chapter of M&M. Ouranid - 02/12/2009 04:36:09 PM 1020 Views
Re: I've only read the first chapter of M&M. Camilla - 02/12/2009 04:40:16 PM 973 Views
Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me. Ouranid - 02/12/2009 05:17:31 PM 1006 Views
Re: Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me. Camilla - 02/12/2009 05:40:16 PM 1054 Views
I suppose. Ouranid - 02/12/2009 06:26:30 PM 1055 Views
Re: I suppose. Camilla - 02/12/2009 07:25:26 PM 1061 Views
Well, I don't hold escapism in such low esteem *NM* Ouranid - 02/12/2009 07:56:13 PM 526 Views
That is what I mean Camilla - 02/12/2009 08:36:02 PM 987 Views
This was something I was exploring earlier. Tom - 02/12/2009 04:34:41 PM 1097 Views
Funny thing about the hivemind antagonist. Ouranid - 02/12/2009 05:13:30 PM 1060 Views
I didn't see the zombies reading speculative fiction Tom - 02/12/2009 05:30:26 PM 1135 Views
Oh, they prefer Clive Cussler. Ouranid - 02/12/2009 06:23:42 PM 1110 Views
There's an interesting book in Russian that might be translated somewhere. Tom - 02/12/2009 10:02:48 PM 1122 Views
i think it comes more down to quality than genre. LadyLorraine - 02/12/2009 04:55:20 PM 1076 Views
I disagree with the ultimate conclusion but agree with many of your points. Tom - 02/12/2009 05:43:04 PM 1048 Views
the illiad is a classic LadyLorraine - 02/12/2009 06:35:24 PM 1069 Views
There's only one "L" in Iliad Tom - 02/12/2009 08:18:38 PM 1037 Views
Is there a safe answer to that question? *NM* LadyLorraine - 02/12/2009 10:33:21 PM 548 Views
Maybe not. *NM* Tom - 03/12/2009 12:59:09 AM 518 Views
It took me a few minutes to agree Beqi - 02/12/2009 07:04:59 PM 1022 Views
Well, I'm glad if you got something out of the post! Tom - 02/12/2009 09:13:26 PM 1038 Views
Re: Well, I'm glad if you got something out of the post! Camilla - 02/12/2009 09:20:49 PM 1015 Views
I don't know. I've only read about 30 pages so far. *NM* Tom - 02/12/2009 10:05:54 PM 547 Views
Many people have mentioned that there's quite a bit of good sff lit out there and you seem to agree. Cockatiel of Doom - 02/12/2009 07:33:42 PM 1144 Views
Hmmm Camilla - 02/12/2009 08:40:53 PM 1052 Views
Re: Hmmm Cockatiel of Doom - 02/12/2009 10:48:02 PM 1067 Views
The website is called "Read and Find Out". It doesn't specify what we're supposed to read. Rebekah - 02/12/2009 08:42:19 PM 1114 Views
Anti the idea ? I see no evidence for this. AgentOrange - 02/12/2009 09:50:37 PM 1069 Views
Heh Rebekah - 02/12/2009 09:56:30 PM 1072 Views
What do you mean ? Almost all the repliers agree with Tom AgentOrange - 03/12/2009 11:01:08 AM 1043 Views
Re: What do you mean ? Almost all the repliers agree with Tom Camilla - 03/12/2009 11:10:35 AM 1060 Views
I see. You don't read announcements. Rebekah - 03/12/2009 11:12:04 AM 1027 Views
No, but it does bill itself as science fiction/fantasy. Cockatiel of Doom - 02/12/2009 10:51:41 PM 1156 Views
Yes. Rebekah - 03/12/2009 12:01:30 AM 1153 Views
I think Rebekah and Camilla put it well. Tom - 02/12/2009 10:05:24 PM 1125 Views
I think they make good points, as I said above. Cockatiel of Doom - 02/12/2009 10:56:55 PM 1019 Views
I agree with in principle random thoughts - 02/12/2009 11:22:19 PM 1001 Views
Certainly. People are free to skip any discussion. Tom - 03/12/2009 01:01:40 AM 1118 Views
I have a few objections. Dreaded Anomaly - 03/12/2009 12:24:43 AM 1086 Views
where else should we talk about it? LadyLorraine - 03/12/2009 12:37:26 AM 1045 Views
There's a difference between having threads about it and focusing the official book club on it. Dreaded Anomaly - 03/12/2009 12:40:53 AM 1142 Views
This is the Sci-Fi and Fantasy Board for site optimization purposes. Tom - 03/12/2009 01:07:39 AM 14081 Views
random thoughts stole my subject line Chas - 03/12/2009 01:56:07 AM 1088 Views
I think I could agree with a "comfort food" analogy Tom - 03/12/2009 02:12:01 AM 1101 Views
Re: I think I could agree with a "comfort food" analogy Chas - 03/12/2009 02:38:17 AM 1154 Views
That's it Ouranid - 03/12/2009 04:02:28 AM 1159 Views
Question: is it really science fiction without one of the following: Tom - 03/12/2009 05:13:21 AM 1097 Views
Certainly Ouranid - 03/12/2009 06:13:38 AM 1142 Views
technically speaking, fantasy is classed as a sub heading under science fiction. *NM* LadyLorraine - 03/12/2009 02:51:12 PM 449 Views
According to whom? *NM* Camilla - 03/12/2009 03:55:45 PM 574 Views
Yeah. What she asked! *NM* Tom - 03/12/2009 09:23:55 PM 539 Views
Yes, it is but actually... Ellestra - 03/12/2009 09:31:44 PM 1070 Views
Eternal Sunshine doesn't have a mad scientist. Tom - 03/12/2009 10:09:01 PM 998 Views
Really? Ellestra - 04/12/2009 07:01:42 PM 1051 Views
But Dan Brown rocks da house!!! *NM* everynametaken - 03/12/2009 02:16:47 AM 544 Views
*pumps fist* Give it up for Dan Brown! *NM* Tom - 03/12/2009 03:58:23 AM 539 Views
That's Dan "booyah" Brown!!! Booyah!!! *NM* everynametaken - 04/12/2009 02:00:56 AM 547 Views
another thing wrong with your argument imlad - 03/12/2009 03:30:19 PM 1054 Views
Absolutely not. And, as I said before, there's only one "L" in Iliad. Tom - 03/12/2009 06:53:35 PM 878 Views
sorry about my atrocious spelling (including the one on pertinent) imlad - 03/12/2009 07:14:59 PM 1177 Views
No problem. On the substantive points: Tom - 03/12/2009 08:00:33 PM 1109 Views
more importantly, which I think it being lost in all this, Camilla - 03/12/2009 08:05:27 PM 1111 Views
I'm not reading the Iliad again, once was enough random thoughts - 04/12/2009 12:19:07 PM 1042 Views
is it just me, or is this now the largest post/thread yet on RAFO.com??? 168 replies so far! *NM* imlad - 03/12/2009 05:03:25 PM 480 Views
Well, for once we're discussing books...and their value. *NM* Tom - 03/12/2009 06:54:01 PM 549 Views
Congratulations on the replies count Ellestra - 03/12/2009 09:30:41 PM 1175 Views
That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. Tom - 03/12/2009 10:50:29 PM 1127 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. Ellestra - 04/12/2009 07:44:56 PM 1107 Views
But the objective truth of a setting can be measured. Tom - 04/12/2009 10:37:10 PM 1032 Views
But does it make any difference in the objective value of the book? Ellestra - 06/12/2009 09:35:59 AM 1194 Views
YES. Tom - 06/12/2009 03:34:17 PM 1012 Views
NO Ellestra - 07/12/2009 08:40:33 PM 1097 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. AgentOrange - 04/12/2009 10:25:08 PM 1044 Views
Yes, it is worse with movies. Much worse, in fact. Tom - 04/12/2009 10:33:18 PM 1094 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. Ellestra - 06/12/2009 09:36:11 AM 1047 Views
Maybe we're different, but I don't care for FX AgentOrange - 06/12/2009 01:37:53 PM 991 Views
This is not about the personal taste Ellestra - 07/12/2009 08:50:34 PM 1096 Views
I've obviously missed the show here... rebelaessedai - 04/12/2009 12:14:30 AM 1017 Views
I'm not sure that's right. This thing just keeps growing. Tom - 04/12/2009 12:46:24 AM 1134 Views
What, your penis? rebelaessedai - 06/12/2009 02:40:09 AM 1016 Views
Don't you know it! Tom - 06/12/2009 03:28:16 PM 933 Views
You talk the talk, that's for sure. rebelaessedai - 07/12/2009 08:14:41 PM 1069 Views
Hate to break it to you... Craig - 07/12/2009 09:54:24 PM 1122 Views
I thought you were gonna tell me... rebelaessedai - 08/12/2009 03:07:54 PM 1187 Views
Metaphor versus literalism Werthead - 04/12/2009 05:42:03 PM 1090 Views
Metaphor divorced from the reality runs risks, however. Tom - 04/12/2009 10:25:47 PM 1006 Views
Honestly, the moral can always be dismissed as inapplicable if you want to dismiss it. Legolas - 05/12/2009 12:16:39 AM 1068 Views
While that's true, it's much harder to just dismiss Mockingbird. Ghavrel - 05/12/2009 03:57:42 AM 1035 Views
Then why read fiction at all? It's all a diversion. Werthead - 05/12/2009 04:16:06 PM 1026 Views
I think people should read non-fiction, and The Nine Hundred Days is an excellent book. Tom - 05/12/2009 04:41:50 PM 1017 Views
aha. but. Camilla - 07/12/2009 03:56:48 PM 1224 Views
Quoting Nietzsche is really hitting below the belt. Tom - 07/12/2009 09:12:34 PM 1164 Views
It is good I was only paraphrasing, then Camilla - 08/12/2009 10:44:14 AM 1058 Views
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