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I think we're interpreting this a bit differently here Larry Send a noteboard - 24/12/2012 04:15:46 AM

I have to admit that I never actually studied it formally, but when I did look at it, it seemed pretty straightforward. The Latin sounds are preserved well in many words (such as cruce, for example).

I wasn't thinking of sound as much as vocabulary, as Romanian has borrowed from Slavic languages and Magyar to a degree, not to mention that its use of pronouns is odder to me than even Portuguese.

As for Spanish vowels being "pure", I don't see how one can say that. The mutation of o > ue and e > ie is overwhelming, so where the Italian costare yields the inflected form costa, the Spanish costar yields cuesta. There are some verb forms where Italian has the same e > ie shift as Spanish (tiene, viene), but in non-verbal settings it retains the long e of Latin (i.e., bene, venerdì, merda, cento, festa, inverno, greco, etc.).

I was thinking of the "purity" of /a/, /e/, /i/, /o/, and /u/ rather than the alteration of Latin vowels into -ie, -uo. Unlike French or even Portuguese, if I see an "a" in Spanish, I know it's /a/, with perhaps only a slight lengthening with it comes to á, é, í, ó, or ú. I don't have to worry about â, ê, î, ô, or û or the various French exceptions and silent vowels.

The mutation of consonants, of course, is far more advanced in Spanish, with c > g, t > d, f > h, pl > ll and the pronunciation of c and z with a decided lisp in Castilian, as well as the shift of v > b in sound (if not in writing), which you noted earlier.

And then there's the /k/ sound mutating in Italian as well as Spanish, just with more variation in Italian. The Italian double consonants, while not difficult to learn, are also a mutation in sound. Granted, the Castilian lisp (minus some of the Southern regions) is very odd to me.

Not only that, but there are certain bizarrities in Spanish, like how Latin perna, which meant the upper leg of a pig, became the word for a human leg. Also, why did the Latin equus disappear, replaced by cavallus (Sp. caballo) but equa remained for a female horse (Sp. yegua)?

I also seem to recall (yet cannot remember the specific words) that gender switches occurred from certain Latin words into the various Romance languages. The words you note seem to me to be remnants of local substrata combining with Vulgar Latin favorites.

There are Arabic loanwords, like albañil for "mason", and Basque loanwords like zorro.

While Italian has some Lombard loanwords? I agree that Spanish (and to a lesser degree, Portuguese) has more admixture, but I still was thinking of phonics and the clarity of vowel sounds rather than vocabulary.

While Italian does have some odd Arabic loanwords here and there, like ragazzo (from ragaṣ, messenger) and arsenale (from dar as-sina'a, workshop), they are far more infrequent.

And that's without even getting to all the American Indian words that litter Latin American Spanish like so many armadillo roadkills on a Texas highway.

It seems I find Latin American Spanish dialects to be a bit more charming, considering the use of simile there

Illusions fall like the husk of a fruit, one after another, and the fruit is experience. - Narrator, Sylvie

Je suis méchant.

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Trying to decide which of these is the best shared-world writer... Larry - 23/12/2012 02:23:35 AM 1047 Views

I have heard of the Bertrand fella, and the Twelve Paladins but I haven't read any of his works Stephen - 23/12/2012 02:58:41 AM 782 Views

Ha! Larry - 23/12/2012 03:04:37 AM 926 Views

I do intend to read Orlando Furioso (and Gerusalemme Liberata) at some point. Legolas - 23/12/2012 08:30:03 AM 820 Views

What does Gerusalemme Liberata have to do with it? Tom - 23/12/2012 02:49:41 PM 758 Views

Never had a formal lesson in Italian Larry - 23/12/2012 05:17:48 PM 782 Views

I actually believe Italian to be the easiest Romance language Tom - 23/12/2012 07:26:43 PM 742 Views

It certainly isn't the hardest (Romanian and then French might be that) Larry - 23/12/2012 07:42:38 PM 883 Views

Romanian always seemed quite easy to me Tom - 24/12/2012 02:08:17 AM 738 Views

I think we're interpreting this a bit differently here Larry - 24/12/2012 04:15:46 AM 931 Views

So by "purity" you really mean the simplicity and limitation on vowel sounds... Tom - 26/12/2012 01:20:40 AM 843 Views

Yes, although I prefer it being in reference to a lesser range of variation in vowel sound to letter Larry - 26/12/2012 04:33:06 AM 858 Views

Eh, they're both famous Italian epics?

Legolas - 25/12/2012 07:06:37 PM 848 Views

You make it sound as though Medieval Italian is radically different from Modern Italian. Tom - 26/12/2012 01:15:24 AM 886 Views

From the aesthetic point of view I think that Ariosto is recognized as the best. Tom - 23/12/2012 02:54:43 PM 873 Views

I agree (all but the Bar-Sur-Aube I've read in the original language, with translations to help) Larry - 23/12/2012 05:16:04 PM 868 Views

Since it's a short book I might just buy a paperback and hope Dumbarton Oaks issues a hardcover. Tom - 23/12/2012 07:29:52 PM 769 Views

It'll be a few months at least before I tackle Mommsen in any language Larry - 23/12/2012 07:44:42 PM 749 Views

I took a chance and ordered Orlando Furioso a week ago from amazon.it Tom - 24/12/2012 02:14:02 AM 1053 Views

Hopefully it'll be what you want Larry - 24/12/2012 04:19:32 AM 945 Views

Sadly, ABEbooks hasn't been very helpful in this instance. Tom - 26/12/2012 01:24:26 AM 1080 Views

Yeah, the lack of photos is a hindrance at times Larry - 26/12/2012 04:34:40 AM 858 Views

Io sono trasportato di gioia Tom - 28/12/2012 12:32:21 AM 767 Views

And I just ordered their Tasso. Tom - 28/12/2012 01:09:08 AM 723 Views

Very strange indeed Larry - 28/12/2012 04:46:26 AM 887 Views

Montanelli was not a fan Tom - 28/12/2012 05:40:14 AM 929 Views

True Larry - 29/12/2012 02:41:02 AM 1202 Views

Excellent!

Larry - 28/12/2012 04:45:42 AM 868 Views

The books are not as rigid as a cardboard-style hardcover, but they aren't very supple. Tom - 28/12/2012 05:36:35 AM 782 Views

I agree about the Old French and Catalan - it makes sense when you think about it. Legolas - 25/12/2012 07:18:35 PM 788 Views

It's even simpler than that. Tom - 26/12/2012 01:48:02 AM 764 Views

Having finished re-reading the Pulci, I think that one might interest you as well Larry - 25/12/2012 08:59:38 AM 792 Views

Once I read what I have, perhaps Tom - 26/12/2012 01:32:27 AM 834 Views

Saw the title of this and immediately thought: Tite Kubo. haha

*NM* MalkierKnight - 03/01/2013 10:27:22 PM 942 Views

Well, I will freely admit my near-total ignorance of manga

*NM* Larry - 03/01/2013 11:50:43 PM 341 Views

Larry, you're so awesome. </Cartman> *NM* Joker - 13/01/2013 01:15:21 AM 502 Views

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<quote id="269353">
<quote id="269346">I have to admit that I never actually studied it formally, but when I did look at it, it seemed pretty straightforward. The Latin sounds are preserved well in many words (such as cruce, for example).</quote>

I wasn't thinking of sound as much as vocabulary, as Romanian has borrowed from Slavic languages and Magyar to a degree, not to mention that its use of pronouns is odder to me than even Portuguese.

<quote id="269346">As for Spanish vowels being "pure", I don't see how one can say that. The mutation of o > ue and e > ie is overwhelming, so where the Italian costare yields the inflected form costa, the Spanish costar yields cuesta. There are some verb forms where Italian has the same e > ie shift as Spanish (tiene, viene), but in non-verbal settings it retains the long e of Latin (i.e., bene, venerdì, merda, cento, festa, inverno, greco, etc.).</quote>

I was thinking of the "purity" of /a/, /e/, /i/, /o/, and /u/ rather than the alteration of Latin vowels into -ie, -uo.  Unlike French or even Portuguese, if I see an "a" in Spanish, I know it's /a/, with perhaps only a slight lengthening with it comes to á, é, í, ó, or ú.  I don't have to worry about â, ê, î, ô, or û or the various French exceptions and silent vowels.

<quote id="269346">The mutation of consonants, of course, is far more advanced in Spanish, with c > g, t > d, f > h, pl > ll and the pronunciation of c and z with a decided lisp in Castilian, as well as the shift of v > b in sound (if not in writing), which you noted earlier.</quote>

And then there's the /k/ sound mutating in Italian as well as Spanish, just with more variation in Italian.  The Italian double consonants, while not difficult to learn, are also a mutation in sound.  Granted, the Castilian lisp (minus some of the Southern regions) is very odd to me.

<quote id="269346">Not only that, but there are certain bizarrities in Spanish, like how Latin perna, which meant the upper leg of a pig, became the word for a human leg. Also, why did the Latin equus disappear, replaced by cavallus (Sp. caballo) but equa remained for a female horse (Sp. yegua)? </quote>

I also seem to recall (yet cannot remember the specific words) that gender switches occurred from certain Latin words into the various Romance languages.  The words you note seem to me to be remnants of local substrata combining with Vulgar Latin favorites.

<quote id="269346">There are Arabic loanwords, like albañil for "mason", and Basque loanwords like zorro.</quote>

While Italian has some Lombard loanwords?  I agree that Spanish (and to a lesser degree, Portuguese) has more admixture, but I still was thinking of phonics and the clarity of vowel sounds rather than vocabulary.

<quote id="269346">While Italian does have some odd Arabic loanwords here and there, like ragazzo (from ragaṣ, messenger) and arsenale (from dar as-sina'a, workshop), they are far more infrequent.</quote>
<quote id="269346">And that's without even getting to all the American Indian words that litter Latin American Spanish like so many armadillo roadkills on a Texas highway.</quote>

It seems I find Latin American Spanish dialects to be a bit more charming, considering the use of simile there ;)
</quote>

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