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The wedding night is statutory. I would describe the later rapes as fairly violent. Camilla Send a noteboard - 17/08/2012 12:13:26 PM
Yes, I've heard of that defence, but it does not really work. Or, rather, it misses the point. While the setting of the books may be "medieval" (though I note he is happy to change other sides to Medieval society, like the lack of dragons), Martin is very much writing from a present-day position (and within a present-day cultural context. His choice to present a 13-yearold girl's rape (yes) as an erotic seduction with an emphasis on consent (she is 13!) therefore really bothers me. The fact that he then goes on to describe violent rape of the same girl before she falls in love with her rapist is my second problem with the Daenerys storyline.
Don't even get me started on all the times I get "you shouldn't apply your contemporary values to SoI&F" by idiots who don't even realize they are doing exactly that with their pro-commoner, pro-feminist, pro-abolitionist arguments.

The fact that women were raped in the Medieval period does not dictate Martin's way of presenting that.
Indeed, right is right and wrong is wrong.

It is a completely different cultural standard than today, and you seem to want to judge these characters with today's standards, instead of losing yourself in their world.
THIS! While true in its own right, I hear it way too much from people who have not the faintest clue which one of us is using contextual standards and which one is operating out of modern prejudices. And then I can always go to the CMB where people are all too willing to ascribe archaic qualities to the standard of morality I use in discussing SoI&F. 8}

As I said, Martin writes within today's cultural standards. And the fact that he emphasises the seduction and consent in that scene really makes it worse as far as I am concerned.
I think Martin's point is that this creepy situation is what she's stuck in, and she kind of lucks out in getting a decent guy, for his culture and position. You're not supposed to be admiring the love story so much as understanding that women are often placed in such situations.

And the scene as written does not portray violence. Individual consent is not an issue in the series, as it often was not in many cultures (calling it a medieval issue is grossly minimizing the scope of the practice, and rather unfair, considering that the medieval period spawned the only culture with a real "feminist" ideal; there could never have been a Seneca Falls without the Magna Carta, which was a product of its time). By all the laws and practices of that world and much of the real world, Daenerys had an obligation to cooperate in that scene, and both the power and the moral authority to engage in intercourse were entirely in Drogo's hands. His groping her is not sexual harassment, but the familiarizing touch of a man used to obtaining consent from an irrationally wary creature to participate in a cooperative physical endeavor.

It does not change the fact that a grown man is having sex with a 13 year old, and I have called Martin out for writing such a thing in the past, but I cannot see that scene being called rape by any standards aside from applying modern legal standards to a primitive & tribal culture, where 13 is on the cusp of middle age. The fact that intercourse is not pleasant for Daenerys does not change the fact that she is consenting to it nor does it make Drogo a rapist.

The issue of consent, especially in regard to marriage is touched on more fully in the rest of the series (if you have watched season 2 of the show you can probably guess another character whose arc shows the flipside of the societal expectations of marriage), and as djwilson300 notes, part of the reading experience of the story is sorting out the propaganda and family legends to the reality, which casts a new light on another supposed incident of rape from GoT, when more backstory is fleshed out in subsequent books.

I hope so. And I do approve of introducing early on what is to become important later. I hope this means I won't have to read any more about those banners, though.
ROFLMAO.


This does not bode well.

I am also glad to hear he problematisest he Starks = good, Lannisters = bad. While it was not quite clear cut in the first book, it could do with some more shading in.
I think the gray areas in this situation are exaggerated. While the Starks are not always "nice" or in the right, morally, they are still the good guys. Even when one of them goes over to the Dark Side it is presented in such a way that I have trouble convincing people here that that character is now evil. IMO, the only way the Lannisters are ever justified or presented as "good" is in the PoV Trap (aside from Tyrion, of course, but his character is hardly static in that equilibrium you noted).
*MySmiley*
structured procrastinator
This message last edited by Camilla on 17/08/2012 at 12:13:49 PM
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A Game of Thrones by George R. R. Martin - 13/08/2012 10:48:37 PM 8862 Views
Fascinating. - 13/08/2012 11:40:22 PM 2344 Views
Re: Fascinating. - 14/08/2012 06:23:13 AM 2151 Views
Mainly the names. - 17/08/2012 12:07:21 AM 2085 Views
Regarding Daenerys as Henry Tudor - 14/08/2012 06:36:37 AM 2230 Views
Not really. - 14/08/2012 07:01:36 PM 2328 Views
Shocking - 15/08/2012 06:49:18 AM 2159 Views
On the Rape issue.... - 14/08/2012 01:19:35 AM 2205 Views
Re: On the Rape issue.... - 14/08/2012 02:02:42 AM 2069 Views
Firstly, Camilla is a she. Secondly, though I won't speak for her, regarding the rape in the novels, - 14/08/2012 02:23:19 AM 2219 Views
When does he use rape in an erotic manner? - 14/08/2012 05:48:59 AM 2071 Views
like all the time. - 14/09/2012 04:45:42 PM 2164 Views
Camilla is indeed a she. - 14/08/2012 06:18:58 AM 2122 Views
Re: Camilla is indeed a she. - 14/08/2012 04:37:17 PM 2110 Views
Re: Camilla is indeed a she. - 15/08/2012 06:39:31 AM 2211 Views
I for one never saw any of the rapes as erotic - 21/08/2012 05:04:11 PM 2335 Views
Re: On the Rape issue.... - 14/08/2012 06:17:55 AM 2055 Views
How is that a violent rape? At worst it would be statutory rape. - 17/08/2012 11:53:44 AM 2119 Views
The wedding night is statutory. I would describe the later rapes as fairly violent. - 17/08/2012 12:13:26 PM 2175 Views
That was her only sex scene, until she induces him to have outdoor sex to get pregnant - 17/08/2012 07:20:09 PM 2157 Views
It is not necessary to provide a scene - 17/08/2012 10:49:20 PM 2065 Views
House Banners/Sigils - 21/08/2012 04:56:07 PM 2114 Views
Re: A Game of Thrones by George R. R. Martin - 14/08/2012 02:08:59 AM 1997 Views
Re: A Game of Thrones by George R. R. Martin - 14/08/2012 06:25:11 AM 2110 Views
I think you misread one part - 14/08/2012 04:51:34 PM 2277 Views
Currently kicking myself - 15/08/2012 06:43:36 AM 2263 Views
Re: Currently kicking myself - 16/08/2012 10:11:01 AM 2094 Views
what a great review. you echo my thoughts quite a bit... - 15/08/2012 01:21:38 AM 2026 Views
Wait...why would you waste time reading this fluff series when it's out on TV? - 16/08/2012 12:10:32 AM 2181 Views
Trollolololololololllll *NM* - 16/08/2012 01:02:22 AM 997 Views
Se noteboard. *NM* - 16/08/2012 06:29:39 AM 1057 Views
Game, set, and match *NM* - 18/08/2012 03:50:38 PM 1021 Views
I think the TV series handles the problematic Dany/Drogo relationship better - 17/08/2012 12:20:16 AM 2162 Views
I think it messed it up by showing forced intercourse without the verbal consent Drogo DID obtain - 17/08/2012 12:07:14 PM 2126 Views
I still find it difficult to read it as anything other than a coerced consent - 17/08/2012 01:08:15 PM 1973 Views
A perpetrator-less crime then. - 17/08/2012 07:26:26 PM 2112 Views
Exactly! I'm on board, Cannoli. - 18/08/2012 07:45:56 PM 1973 Views
You are missing the point. - 18/08/2012 11:11:33 PM 2083 Views
Re: You are missing the point. - 19/08/2012 01:25:30 PM 2143 Views
Re: You are missing the point. - 19/08/2012 01:40:11 PM 2103 Views
So, you're saying that Juliet was raped by Romeo??? - 21/08/2012 05:24:56 PM 2168 Views
The later books do add more context and change some of this - 19/08/2012 12:08:49 AM 2020 Views
Re: The later books do add more context and change some of this - 19/08/2012 07:27:59 AM 2035 Views
That makes sense - 19/08/2012 02:35:36 PM 1805 Views
Jesus Christ another fucking thread about rape and fantasy. - 19/08/2012 01:47:43 AM 1277 Views
Perhaps if reading other people's views makes you so angry, you should avoid reading them? *NM* - 19/08/2012 02:37:03 PM 1098 Views
High blood pressure can kill, I hear. *NM* - 19/08/2012 03:33:14 PM 1154 Views
Nonsense. - 19/08/2012 03:33:39 PM 1045 Views
Fixed it for you. - 19/08/2012 08:22:18 PM 1147 Views
Shake the sand out of your vagina bitch. *NM* - 20/08/2012 06:35:32 AM 1055 Views
Gosh, this is really turning into something fun. - 20/08/2012 07:15:01 AM 1202 Views
Huh. I just came to the odd realization... - 20/08/2012 08:29:56 PM 1139 Views
Don't lock it! - 21/08/2012 05:11:34 AM 1112 Views
Yes, I'm aware, or I might have locked it already. - 21/08/2012 06:17:29 PM 985 Views
I'd ask that you do lock it. - 21/08/2012 10:00:48 PM 1053 Views
Fair enough. *NM* - 22/08/2012 06:26:04 PM 969 Views
I may join you - 20/08/2012 10:14:50 PM 1128 Views
COME AT ME BRO *NM* - 21/08/2012 05:09:34 AM 990 Views
The interesting part is... - 28/08/2012 01:39:49 AM 1943 Views
That is the best written and most insightful review of that book I have read - 01/09/2012 05:38:00 PM 2050 Views
i'm rereading the series now and yeah there is a LOT of rape - 14/09/2012 04:38:27 PM 2627 Views

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