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Re: On the Rape issue.... Camilla Send a noteboard - 14/08/2012 06:17:55 AM
I feel like you missed a major setting issue. The books take place in a medieval time period where arranged marriages are consummated as soon as a girl "flowers" (12-13 years old in many cases).

Direct from Wikipedia (which we all know has to be true)

The definition of rape varies both in different parts of the world and at different times in history.[17] It is defined in many jurisdictions as sexual intercourse, or other forms of sexual penetration, of one person by another person without the consent of the victim.[17]


Yes, I've heard of that defence, but it does not really work. Or, rather, it misses the point. While the setting of the books may be "medieval" (though I note he is happy to change other sides to Medieval society, like the lack of dragons), Martin is very much writing from a present-day position (and within a present-day cultural context. His choice to present a 13-yearold girl's rape (yes) as an erotic seduction with an emphasis on consent (she is 13!) therefore really bothers me. The fact that he then goes on to describe violent rape of the same girl before she falls in love with her rapist is my second problem with the Daenerys storyline.

The fact that women were raped in the Medieval period does not dictate Martin's way of presenting that.

If I recall, Daeny does say yes and therefor that is not the definition of rape, although not how you and I would view consensual either. It is a completely different cultural standard than today, and you seem to want to judge these characters with today's standards, instead of losing yourself in their world.


As I said, Martin writes within today's cultural standards. And the fact that he emphasises the seduction and consent in that scene really makes it worse as far as I am concerned.

You disregard the banners and pageantry, much like I did the first time through GoT, because like you I could never remember the 20 different knights names in the tourney or their banners. But in that long listing paragraph is the introduction to so many of our sub-plots for the next four novels, which Martin does a great job of interweaving with the Starks and Lannisters (two of which you will love wholeheartedly before book 5 and one you will continue to loathe).


I hope so. And I do approve of introducing early on what is to become important later. I hope this means I won't have to read any more about those banners, though.

I am also glad to hear he problematisest he Starks = good, Lannisters = bad. While it was not quite clear cut in the first book, it could do with some more shading in.

The recent history of Westeros is not slapped across your face most of the time and in many cases, you must decipher from the different perspectives what is reality and propaganda. The great mystery although is not what did happen a generation ago, but what could have happened and how close these wars, weddings, rivalries, and ultimately every characters pending doom could have been avoided because of one simple fart. After a couple thousand pages you see how the factions used to work together and how they fit together today. Those banners help identify families and this helps illuminate the complex weave Martin has created for us.


That does sound interesting.

I agree that his series stalls in book 4 and 5, but if you give book 2 and 3 a chance, you will find that the plot thickens and events spin wildly out of control for everyone. The meek inherit the thrones, and the strong are cast down by magic, treachery, and pure stupidity at times. The evil and good alike are slain by the thousands, and the war of the five kings erodes everyone into a husk of their beginning selves as we met them in GoT. All while the true enemy gains strength and WINTER IS COMING!
*MySmiley*
structured procrastinator
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A Game of Thrones by George R. R. Martin - 13/08/2012 10:48:37 PM 9004 Views
Fascinating. - 13/08/2012 11:40:22 PM 2427 Views
Re: Fascinating. - 14/08/2012 06:23:13 AM 2243 Views
Mainly the names. - 17/08/2012 12:07:21 AM 2176 Views
Regarding Daenerys as Henry Tudor - 14/08/2012 06:36:37 AM 2314 Views
Not really. - 14/08/2012 07:01:36 PM 2413 Views
Shocking - 15/08/2012 06:49:18 AM 2269 Views
On the Rape issue.... - 14/08/2012 01:19:35 AM 2283 Views
Re: On the Rape issue.... - 14/08/2012 02:02:42 AM 2156 Views
Firstly, Camilla is a she. Secondly, though I won't speak for her, regarding the rape in the novels, - 14/08/2012 02:23:19 AM 2307 Views
When does he use rape in an erotic manner? - 14/08/2012 05:48:59 AM 2159 Views
like all the time. - 14/09/2012 04:45:42 PM 2248 Views
Camilla is indeed a she. - 14/08/2012 06:18:58 AM 2209 Views
Re: Camilla is indeed a she. - 14/08/2012 04:37:17 PM 2200 Views
Re: Camilla is indeed a she. - 15/08/2012 06:39:31 AM 2298 Views
I for one never saw any of the rapes as erotic - 21/08/2012 05:04:11 PM 2441 Views
Re: On the Rape issue.... - 14/08/2012 06:17:55 AM 2143 Views
House Banners/Sigils - 21/08/2012 04:56:07 PM 2207 Views
Re: A Game of Thrones by George R. R. Martin - 14/08/2012 02:08:59 AM 2097 Views
Re: A Game of Thrones by George R. R. Martin - 14/08/2012 06:25:11 AM 2200 Views
I think you misread one part - 14/08/2012 04:51:34 PM 2358 Views
Currently kicking myself - 15/08/2012 06:43:36 AM 2353 Views
Re: Currently kicking myself - 16/08/2012 10:11:01 AM 2185 Views
what a great review. you echo my thoughts quite a bit... - 15/08/2012 01:21:38 AM 2107 Views
Wait...why would you waste time reading this fluff series when it's out on TV? - 16/08/2012 12:10:32 AM 2264 Views
Trollolololololololllll *NM* - 16/08/2012 01:02:22 AM 1069 Views
Se noteboard. *NM* - 16/08/2012 06:29:39 AM 1101 Views
Game, set, and match *NM* - 18/08/2012 03:50:38 PM 1060 Views
I think the TV series handles the problematic Dany/Drogo relationship better - 17/08/2012 12:20:16 AM 2257 Views
I think it messed it up by showing forced intercourse without the verbal consent Drogo DID obtain - 17/08/2012 12:07:14 PM 2210 Views
I still find it difficult to read it as anything other than a coerced consent - 17/08/2012 01:08:15 PM 2068 Views
A perpetrator-less crime then. - 17/08/2012 07:26:26 PM 2201 Views
Exactly! I'm on board, Cannoli. - 18/08/2012 07:45:56 PM 2064 Views
You are missing the point. - 18/08/2012 11:11:33 PM 2172 Views
Re: You are missing the point. - 19/08/2012 01:25:30 PM 2230 Views
Re: You are missing the point. - 19/08/2012 01:40:11 PM 2189 Views
So, you're saying that Juliet was raped by Romeo??? - 21/08/2012 05:24:56 PM 2260 Views
The later books do add more context and change some of this - 19/08/2012 12:08:49 AM 2112 Views
Re: The later books do add more context and change some of this - 19/08/2012 07:27:59 AM 2120 Views
That makes sense - 19/08/2012 02:35:36 PM 1890 Views
Jesus Christ another fucking thread about rape and fantasy. - 19/08/2012 01:47:43 AM 1310 Views
Perhaps if reading other people's views makes you so angry, you should avoid reading them? *NM* - 19/08/2012 02:37:03 PM 1139 Views
High blood pressure can kill, I hear. *NM* - 19/08/2012 03:33:14 PM 1200 Views
Nonsense. - 19/08/2012 03:33:39 PM 1092 Views
Fixed it for you. - 19/08/2012 08:22:18 PM 1193 Views
Shake the sand out of your vagina bitch. *NM* - 20/08/2012 06:35:32 AM 1099 Views
Gosh, this is really turning into something fun. - 20/08/2012 07:15:01 AM 1246 Views
Huh. I just came to the odd realization... - 20/08/2012 08:29:56 PM 1187 Views
Don't lock it! - 21/08/2012 05:11:34 AM 1157 Views
Yes, I'm aware, or I might have locked it already. - 21/08/2012 06:17:29 PM 1025 Views
I'd ask that you do lock it. - 21/08/2012 10:00:48 PM 1097 Views
Fair enough. *NM* - 22/08/2012 06:26:04 PM 1015 Views
I may join you - 20/08/2012 10:14:50 PM 1172 Views
COME AT ME BRO *NM* - 21/08/2012 05:09:34 AM 1038 Views
The interesting part is... - 28/08/2012 01:39:49 AM 2036 Views
That is the best written and most insightful review of that book I have read - 01/09/2012 05:38:00 PM 2132 Views
i'm rereading the series now and yeah there is a LOT of rape - 14/09/2012 04:38:27 PM 2718 Views

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