But some works of Flaubert aren't considered OK for compulsory reads...
DomA Send a noteboard - 22/03/2012 05:27:04 AM
There is a strong condemnation of Islam, but there's certainly nothing wrong with a Christian stating a traditional Christian position that non-believers would end up in Hell.
That's not the points we've touched. We're not even trying to defend the attacks they made on the work (or the christian mentality/heritage, for that matter. It was polemic, populist and rather biased and even plain stupid in quite a few places).
I don't even agree the work should be removed from all schools in Italy. I'm not even sure it should be at all - I don't know how it's taught, to whom, and to what extent the work is covered and from what angle, and I don't even know for sure if the school system there is a laic one or still a confessional one. I know if Dante was French the DC wouldn't be on the curriculum as a compulsory read in French classes, but I don't know the Italian context and if this has to be seen in a larger context, for instance if groups in Italy are rabidly fighting the fact the system is not laic there (perhaps it is, though I suspect it's not - the Vatican still has a lot on influence over Italian civil life, and everywhere full laic systems were to be introduced in predominantly catholic nations, the Catholic Church has fought against it).
I merely said I understand why many would feel incomfortable with some parts of this text being taught in public schools, attended by people from many religions, not just Christians anymore - and I'm surrounded by people who consider themselves Christians who no longer wish their children to be taught notions such as non-believers being condemned to Hell, and who certainly don't want their children to be exposed to this sort of material in language/literature classes. Around here, this would also conflict with the goals of the school programs encouraging religious tolerance, and promoting an understanding of the ethics and basics of all religions (without getting into matters such as the validity of those systems) as a key feature of the general culture it wishes the children to gain.
Try putting yourself in the shoes of muslim or jewish Italian parents whose children are forced to study a work where the author condemns your faith as false and puts you into Hell. What about homosexual parents? From a laic perspective, this isn't material suitable as a compulsory read. It's way too Christian, rife with religious opinions and beliefs (some would say prejudices) for that, and it happens to be a Christian work with some explicit condemnation of other religions, sexual orientation etc. which is far less acceptable than merely being a Christian work dealing with religious themes/motifs. In a laic system, it's not the place of compulsory language classes to present the religious perspective of one religion at the detriment of others, certainly not when it also conflicts with social values the state (in a democracy) wishes to the educational system to promote. These are issues it's up to the parents and churches to teach their believers, not for a laic public system paid for by citizens from every religions, races, sexual orientations and designed for children regardless of their private beliefs to attend. It's the sort of work much better suited for literature/history of italian literature classes. If a Muslim or an homosexual or a feminist wishes to study medieval literature, they're bound to expect clashes with their values.
Of course, it's been forever since I've read this work, but as far as I remember, there's no shortage of excerpts to choose from to teach about its literary form or history or for its language, without having to delve more than superficially or at least in a non judgemental way on the christian framework of the work, and laicity doesn't mean either negating your historical/cultural heritage - which for most of us means centuries of christian culture. I wouldn't expect a typical high school level class to go much more in depth in the work than that anyway.
And since you brought up Flaubert and Shakespeare... not all school systems still pick The Merchant of Venice among his plays that are compulsory reads, and don't go look for a masterpiece like La Tentation de Saint Antoine as a compulsory read in France either.
Also, once again, many Christians still believe that homosexual acts are a grave sin and that those who engage in them are going to Hell.
According to our charter of rights and freedoms, that's not something that would be acceptable for a public school to teach...
Churches can condemn homosexuality (or rather homosexual sexual acts) on moral grounds as they wish, they're free to do so as long as they don't break any laws doing so (such as firing one of their employees because they discovered he was homosexual). But it's not the place of public schools to promote such POV, not when a majority in a democratic society decided the school system should be exclusively laic and refuses to see homosexuality anymore as something condemnable, and believes it's to the benefit of society to teach kids that homophobia is wrong. Priests are welcome to teach the opposite on sundays, though around here it's not an issue a lot of them are terribly comfortable with (I'm speaking of the catholic ones, Muslims and several Jews are even more condemning than Christians). It's quite another thing higher up in the hierarchy.
Fundamentally, tolerance merely means that we do not persecute others.
Tolerance is the bare minimum. Merely tolerating homosexuality isn't enough anymore to many societies, for instance.
The ultimate problem that I have with this group is not that I share most of the opinions (I think Muslims are wrong and Islam is a false religion, but I do not think they are going to Hell, and I don't think gays are going to Hell either), but because they are using the Divine Comedy to attack anything Christian, and essentially they are attacking a world classic due to its subject matter. As others have pointed out, are we next going to attack the Iliad for its portrayal of pagan gods or its violence?
The attack was rabid, populist and missed the point on so many specifics.
Condemning a medieval text produced in a christian society is absurd anyway. It is exactly like Christians condemning the Illiad as pagan.
It's especially stupid because there's in fact no need at all to attack the Divine Comedy to question it's suitability as a compulsory read in a laic education context, even less when it concerns rather specific passages of the text that it's debatable should be included in a course, not the whole text.
Divine Comedy is "offensive and discriminatory", says Italian NGO
20/03/2012 07:25:08 PM
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Duh?
20/03/2012 07:38:41 PM
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It does kind of feel like we should know more about how it's taught in Italian schools.
20/03/2012 07:50:36 PM
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Isn't the fundamental basis of Christanity mutually exclusive to Judaism and Islam?
20/03/2012 08:33:51 PM
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That's a really good point that I hadn't considered. I agree. *NM*
22/03/2012 09:05:00 AM
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Just because someone is in Hell doesn't mean you should discriminate against them
20/03/2012 08:23:22 PM
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Not having read any Dante is kind of hurting my ability to reply to that.
20/03/2012 10:08:52 PM
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Odd, considering you linked the "offending passages"
20/03/2012 11:54:34 PM
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Yes, well, I was semi-serious with the "pretending to understand Italian".
21/03/2012 07:58:35 PM
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I rather agree with you
21/03/2012 10:09:01 PM
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Taking the Divine Comedy off the curriculum would be like taking Shakespeare out in the UK.
21/03/2012 10:48:15 PM
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But some works of Flaubert aren't considered OK for compulsory reads...
22/03/2012 05:27:04 AM
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The last part of Hell is Giudecca because of Judas.
21/03/2012 10:30:36 PM
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And you don't see what's offensive about that?
21/03/2012 11:11:16 PM
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You are making an assumption that Dante named it after Jewish quarters.
21/03/2012 11:24:47 PM
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Wait, let's be clear just how bat-shit Rick Santorum crazy these assholes are.
21/03/2012 01:06:49 AM
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They also dont seem to realize just how many Muslim nations are calling for the eradication of Israe *NM*
21/03/2012 04:33:53 PM
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There's some things in that paragraph one can roll one's eyes at, aye - but that's as far as it goes
21/03/2012 08:06:32 PM
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Are you serious?! Did you read the whole paragraph?
21/03/2012 10:24:56 PM
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I certainly did. Though as it turns out I had not read their other articles...
21/03/2012 10:59:51 PM
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I saw that. Seems a little misguided
21/03/2012 07:04:06 AM
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That's what they're advocating. And I wouldn't know - they seem to think it is. *NM*
21/03/2012 08:08:53 PM
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I think that sometimes people take "politicly correct" tooooo far... *NM*
21/03/2012 08:20:31 AM
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Let me sum up my opinion on this as succinctly and clearly as I can:
21/03/2012 11:50:37 PM
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