Yes, I've never been very good at concisely making a point and then letting it go. Having Joel around has the unfortunate side-effect of letting everyone else think "at least I'm not as bad as Joel", I guess...
Heh. I think you did just fine. I'm sure I said the same things several times as well.
So, here's me trying to be concise: no, but a less offensive but still racist interpretation of Tolkien considering people of color to be ignorant and in need of guidance from white westerners *is* fair, I'm afraid.
I could be wrong, but I think the only thing we're disagreeing on is the meaning of the word "fair." I was trying to convey that it feels like an injustice to call it racist/sexist if he didn't intend what he wrote to show disfavor to any given race (unfair to him and his intentions).
You're saying it's a fair (as in - that person is not to be automatically considered crazy
) interpretation. I do agree that if one reads LotR with no attempt to look up WHY he wrote it the way he did, or his background (etc), that person could easily see it as racism/sexism. We also have a slight disagreement regarding how much the author intent and time of the writing matters.Yeah, unfortunately I did make an error in there, as John pointed out... so I guess it's three white westerners and one brown easterling on the ones we know of.
I thought I had seen something along those lines, but was too tired of the whole thing to look it up.
We'll agree to marginally hair-splittingly disagree, then.
Sure.
Many myths have the same problem, of course, but aren't generally subjected to the same scrutiny as 20th-century novels, what with being so old. As for the other question, you can of course look at the overarching Catholic messages, but I don't think it makes much sense to just consider all of the non-human races as purely abstract concepts given flesh, and like I said, the orcs are merely the worst case so you can't limit the abstraction to them - in essence the Elves have the same problem.
Your first line is definitely true.
Interesting.
Obv, one has to be wary of wiki, but I've seen similar information on other sites (much geekier ones
). Wiki seemed easiest to link. Thank you for your letter ... I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by arisch. I am not of Aryan extraction: that is Indo-Iranian; as far as I am aware none of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects. But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people.
—Tolkien, The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, #30 (Emphasis in original)
Okay. Consider that theory well and truly debunked, then... I'd suggest informing acrackedmoon of all this, but she seems rather too stubborn to concede a point so easily, based on what I've seen.
Isn't that an awesome statement though? I <3 it. And him more. (In fact, it highlights part of what pisses me off so much about crackedmoon's position.)
Well, there we have a real disagreement, then.
How will we survive it?!
The racist elements in Tolkien's writing
- 29/01/2012 01:31:02 PM
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She has some points, of course.
- 29/01/2012 02:25:32 PM
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Quite a few points
- 29/01/2012 02:40:45 PM
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I don't find the tone blunt; I find it leading, patronizing and often wrong or inferring too much.
- 30/01/2012 01:43:27 AM
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Agreed - reading it, I struggled to find any redeeming qualities
- 30/01/2012 07:32:58 PM
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Agreed, in general. The tremendous bad faith and sophistry turn me off, though.
- 29/01/2012 09:31:04 PM
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Mostly agreed with the article, but thought she undermined herself with her own racism.
- 29/01/2012 02:50:11 PM
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Just read your Twitter convo... nice try, but looks like wasted effort. *NM*
- 29/01/2012 10:37:08 PM
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Well, I'll be honest.
- 29/01/2012 10:34:46 PM
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Let me try to summarize some of her points with the invective filtered out, then.
- 29/01/2012 10:48:24 PM
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Thank you.
- 29/01/2012 11:10:13 PM
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What the hell, might as well go and play devil's advocate, right?
- 30/01/2012 04:50:30 PM
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- 30/01/2012 04:50:30 PM
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I expected that.
- 30/01/2012 05:39:59 PM
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- 30/01/2012 05:39:59 PM
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Of course you did. I'm predictable that way.
- 30/01/2012 10:28:10 PM
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Re: Of course you did. I'm predictable that way.
- 31/01/2012 12:39:46 AM
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Re: Of course you did. I'm predictable that way.
- 31/01/2012 08:38:46 PM
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I <3 you, but there are several very key things we are not going to agree on.
- 31/01/2012 10:02:22 PM
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- 31/01/2012 10:02:22 PM
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Hmm?
- 31/01/2012 10:10:22 PM
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Yeah. I got to reading Encyclopedia of Arda just now, and it told me the same thing.
- 31/01/2012 10:35:54 PM
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As a sort of group answer (I've been mostly absent from forums the past two days)
- 31/01/2012 10:45:55 PM
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I don't mind if you tell me I'm out of line here, but
- 31/01/2012 11:55:04 PM
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I'm rarely ever offended
- 01/02/2012 01:54:58 AM
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She was referring specifically to the Twitter "conversation" I had with the blogger.
- 01/02/2012 09:05:28 AM
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Yes.
- 01/02/2012 10:47:22 AM
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It makes me wonder what she thinks is happening in Zimbabwe, for example.
- 01/02/2012 11:13:11 AM
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I've been thinking about that.
- 01/02/2012 11:29:18 AM
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That blog post was mostly good, but the exception is a rather large one.
- 01/02/2012 08:35:57 PM
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What's a neckbeard? And why am I supposed to care? *NM*
- 30/01/2012 01:29:07 AM
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neckbeards are when the person (either intentionally or through misfortunate genetics)...
- 30/01/2012 03:21:09 AM
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acrackedmoon is a racist, sexist bore. And I don't even like Tolkien. *NM*
- 30/01/2012 01:14:17 PM
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