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Re: Quite a few points Legolas Send a noteboard - 29/01/2012 04:59:11 PM
But often that tone makes you have to think and react quicker, doesn't it? That's what I think some miss; being blunt can knock down certain walls, even if it sometimes raises others in their stead. That quote, however, I think makes a strong point about how self-deceiving we can be. "Oh! I'm not racist, but..." often with a callous, casual remark about a non-privileged group. Look at the blog "Stuff White People Like" and note the reactions to it. Her point is not pleasant at all to consider, but there is much to it.

Provocative writing can be good, yes. I quite like Camille Paglia, for instance - sometimes she does or says things I totally disagree with or find absurd, but that's part of the deal with provocateurs like her. This author (at least, are all posts on that blog by the same author? Some are signed, others aren't, so not sure, but assuming that they are: ) has rather too many ridiculous statements and pointless insult hurling to be seriously compared to Paglia, though. And when called out on it, doesn't seem to be able to take it the way she dishes it out.

I don't deny the obvious truth that a lot of people are less progressive and more racist than they consider themselves, and that even people holding liberal, inclusive viewpoints may still be caught with dubious thoughts or statements. But that quote is ridiculous for suggesting that that makes them the next best thing to a neo-Nazi.
Casual, subconscious racist/sexist/classist thoughts/statements may not be as actively bad as a cross burning or spitting on suffragettes, but it is an insidious form of the latter that perpetuates the germ of such ugliness. As for the comment about Sam, isn't it more than countered with the other descriptions and comments in the trilogy? That's what I took from her discussion of it.

Countered? Not really, no. Rather, Sam's comment to a certain, admittedly limited, extent "counters" the other elements of the trilogy. The orcs, goblins, trolls are still considered purely evil, of course, but the humans at least are not. Sam's comment is there, in my view, to make clear the racism is casual and, well, I can't say subconscious, but at least not intentional.

As for casual racism/sexism being "an insidious form of cross burning or spitting on suffragettes", that seems a bit exaggerated to me. At the end of a day, the difference between somebody who feels and acts positively towards ethnic minorities / women / LGBT-people / ..., and somebody who doesn't, is the critical one - not the difference between those who fully understand the minority position and accordingly have entirely "correct" viewpoints about them, and those who don't.

And of course I don't need to tell you that such things need to be seen in the context of their time and place; to be sure Tolkien was not particularly progressive for his time and place, but he wasn't as reactionary as he may now seem, either. We like to think that we got it right now and all generations before us were wrong; as far as minority rights, women's rights, gay rights are concerned, I certainly feel the same way, but still it's interesting to look forward a few centuries and imagine what the people then will be saying about us.
But even in the case of LĂșthien, what is she remembered for? Certainly not her actions.

In the fictional universe, I seem to remember some lines about the Elves mourning their "fairest daughter" or some such, yes, caring more about her looks than about her actions. I doubt the readers of the Silmarillion feel the same way, though, nor its writer.
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The racist elements in Tolkien's writing - 29/01/2012 01:31:02 PM 2492 Views
She has some points, of course. - 29/01/2012 02:25:32 PM 1272 Views
Quite a few points - 29/01/2012 02:40:45 PM 1366 Views
Re: Quite a few points - 29/01/2012 04:59:11 PM 1130 Views
Mostly agreed with the article, but thought she undermined herself with her own racism. - 29/01/2012 02:50:11 PM 1338 Views
I wish I could agree with you, but I can't in full - 29/01/2012 02:58:05 PM 1333 Views
I'm not bothered by the tone. Annoyance is justified. - 29/01/2012 03:03:07 PM 1270 Views
Re: I wish I could agree with you, but I can't in full - 30/01/2012 02:11:07 PM 1281 Views
Do you really believe that? - 30/01/2012 02:44:19 PM 1346 Views
Just read your Twitter convo... nice try, but looks like wasted effort. *NM* - 29/01/2012 10:37:08 PM 577 Views
Yes. - 29/01/2012 10:41:15 PM 1018 Views
Oh, also: - 29/01/2012 03:07:03 PM 1084 Views
Well, I'll be honest. - 29/01/2012 10:34:46 PM 1213 Views
Let me try to summarize some of her points with the invective filtered out, then. - 29/01/2012 10:48:24 PM 1408 Views
Thank you. - 29/01/2012 11:10:13 PM 1438 Views
What the hell, might as well go and play devil's advocate, right? - 30/01/2012 04:50:30 PM 1345 Views
I expected that. - 30/01/2012 05:39:59 PM 1244 Views
Of course you did. I'm predictable that way. - 30/01/2012 10:28:10 PM 1232 Views
Re: Of course you did. I'm predictable that way. - 31/01/2012 12:39:46 AM 1131 Views
Re: Of course you did. I'm predictable that way. - 31/01/2012 08:38:46 PM 1176 Views
I <3 you, but there are several very key things we are not going to agree on. - 31/01/2012 10:02:22 PM 1595 Views
Oh. - 31/01/2012 11:07:52 PM 1239 Views
- 01/02/2012 12:17:59 AM 1348 Views
Hmm? - 31/01/2012 10:10:22 PM 1165 Views
Yeah. I got to reading Encyclopedia of Arda just now, and it told me the same thing. - 31/01/2012 10:35:54 PM 1088 Views
As a sort of group answer (I've been mostly absent from forums the past two days) - 31/01/2012 10:45:55 PM 1429 Views
I don't mind if you tell me I'm out of line here, but - 31/01/2012 11:55:04 PM 1270 Views
I'm rarely ever offended - 01/02/2012 01:54:58 AM 1456 Views
She was referring specifically to the Twitter "conversation" I had with the blogger. - 01/02/2012 09:05:28 AM 1239 Views
Yes. - 01/02/2012 10:47:22 AM 1369 Views
It makes me wonder what she thinks is happening in Zimbabwe, for example. - 01/02/2012 11:13:11 AM 1406 Views
I've been thinking about that. - 01/02/2012 11:29:18 AM 1195 Views
Re: I've been thinking about that. - 01/02/2012 11:40:11 AM 1465 Views
We're nuts. - 01/02/2012 03:09:15 PM 1201 Views
I know that - 01/02/2012 11:15:48 AM 1259 Views
That blog post was mostly good, but the exception is a rather large one. - 01/02/2012 08:35:57 PM 1118 Views
Do you mean exception*S*? - 02/02/2012 04:27:03 AM 1191 Views
The Hobbit came out in 1937. - 30/01/2012 01:35:45 AM 1164 Views
She hates Tolkien's writings to begin with ... - 30/01/2012 06:34:29 AM 1306 Views
The tone of the article is massively annoying - 30/01/2012 06:45:19 AM 1344 Views
I laughed while reading it - 30/01/2012 04:30:50 PM 1212 Views

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