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Re: There has to be something more, though. Macharius Send a noteboard - 20/12/2011 12:21:39 PM
I think the complaints about the misogyny in Martin's books are somewhat shakier, however. First off, he has a significant number of major female characters with agency, several of whom do not use their sexuality to get what they want (Arya, most notably) whilst others do (Cersei, Daenerys) and others reject that notion (Brienne). Secondly, ASoIaF is much more closely based on - or at least inspired by - real historical events (the Red Wedding is a re-enactment of the Black Dinner, when King James II of Scotland personally killed Earl Douglas at a dinner held under a flag of safe conduct, and Douglas was stabbed through the throat and thrown out of a window like Robb, though his head was not removed that we know of) and the level of 'misogyny' reflects that. On a related note, Mary Gentle, in her research for ASH: A SECRET HISTORY, discovered evidence that child prostitution amongst camp followers during medieval warfare was commonplace, and depicts her heroine starting life in such a role, something that goes way beyond anything seen in Martin (or Bakker, for that matter).

In fact, ASoIaF rather lowballs the levels of violence and rape that take place during major conflicts. The accounts of the devastation of Silesia and much of Eastern Germany during the Red Army's march on Berlin in 1945 are truly disturbing, and the notion that medieval warfare did not feature such things when there was far less reporting going on seems unrealistic.


All of which raises the point for me that, if I want to read about atrocities, the real world has far too many examples for me to want to have them featured and indeed highlighted in my recreational reading. That many of the events in ASoIaF have at least some historical background is no excuse for making a spectacle of the worst parts in the name of "authenticity".
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Violence, rape, and agency in the "gritty fantasies" - 17/12/2011 01:36:54 PM 1739 Views
Hm, ok. - 17/12/2011 10:51:21 PM 1137 Views
I think we largely agree - 17/12/2011 11:23:00 PM 1031 Views
Re: Hm, ok. - 26/12/2011 01:08:14 AM 1022 Views
Martin, Goodkind... - 18/12/2011 01:58:33 PM 1040 Views
More than just those - 18/12/2011 08:15:27 PM 971 Views
Re: More than just those - 26/12/2011 01:13:21 AM 895 Views
Re: Martin, Goodkind... - 26/12/2011 01:11:12 AM 911 Views
On more of a "meta" level, what makes a fantasy story "gritty" in the first place? - 19/12/2011 02:58:57 PM 915 Views
There has to be something more, though. - 19/12/2011 03:47:56 PM 1071 Views
Re: There has to be something more, though. - 19/12/2011 05:29:30 PM 947 Views
Re: There has to be something more, though. - 19/12/2011 09:06:14 PM 922 Views
I agree about Martin - haven't read enough Bakker to judge. - 19/12/2011 09:56:17 PM 976 Views
My problem with aSoIaF... - 20/12/2011 05:16:42 AM 970 Views
The Rhoynish influence pretty much ends in Dorne. - 20/12/2011 06:15:54 AM 950 Views
And that makes sense? - 20/12/2011 08:54:16 AM 1039 Views
Yes and no. - 20/12/2011 03:10:54 PM 1066 Views
Re: Yes and no. - 26/12/2011 03:12:01 AM 930 Views
Re: And that makes sense? - 18/05/2012 01:42:52 AM 1003 Views
Re: There has to be something more, though. - 20/12/2011 12:21:39 PM 879 Views
That's a question for each reader to answer then. - 20/12/2011 03:20:39 PM 782 Views
You appear to have not understood my point. - 20/12/2011 05:59:07 PM 830 Views
Re: There has to be something more, though. - 26/12/2011 03:14:04 AM 848 Views
Re: There has to be something more, though. - 26/12/2011 03:01:34 AM 875 Views
That's my general take as well - 20/12/2011 07:15:51 AM 864 Views
I like violence *NM* - 20/12/2011 07:51:39 PM 370 Views
Re: Violence, rape, and agency in the "gritty fantasies" - 25/12/2011 11:52:41 PM 1061 Views

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