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I agree about Martin - haven't read enough Bakker to judge. Legolas Send a noteboard - 19/12/2011 09:56:17 PM
I think the complaints about the misogyny in Martin's books are somewhat shakier, however. First off, he has a significant number of major female characters with agency, several of whom do not use their sexuality to get what they want (Arya, most notably) whilst others do (Cersei, Daenerys) and others reject that notion (Brienne). Secondly, ASoIaF is much more closely based on - or at least inspired by - real historical events (the Red Wedding is a re-enactment of the Black Dinner, when King James II of Scotland personally killed Earl Douglas at a dinner held under a flag of safe conduct, and Douglas was stabbed through the throat and thrown out of a window like Robb, though his head was not removed that we know of) and the level of 'misogyny' reflects that. On a related note, Mary Gentle, in her research for ASH: A SECRET HISTORY, discovered evidence that child prostitution amongst camp followers during medieval warfare was commonplace, and depicts her heroine starting life in such a role, something that goes way beyond anything seen in Martin (or Bakker, for that matter).

To take another example, I was recently reading Suetonius' Twelve Caesars and found out where Martin got the inspiration for the part about baby Aegon's head being bashed in against a wall: when the Praetorian Guard murdered Roman emperor Caligula and then his wife, supposedly their 3-year old Julia Drusilla managed to bite one of them, and suffered that same fate. (Similarly, Martin's characters certainly have plenty of justification to rise up against their lawful sovereign - but then taint their hands with some horrible crimes.)

For one of Erikson's bloodiest scenes - the one involving mass crucifixion - there is also an obvious source of inspiration, in the actions of the Romans after they finally managed to put down Spartacus' rebellion. It would perhaps make more sense to accuse them of unoriginality in their extreme violence, than of going beyond reality.

And regarding prostitution, I'd actually be inclined to say fantasy has a tendency of romanticizing it and presenting it rosier than it generally was in history.

Lastly, I think it should be pointed out that what happened in the Democratic Republic of Congo and to a lesser extent in some surrounding countries in the past fifteen or so years exceeds very nearly everything I've ever read in a fantasy novel, I'll spare you the details.
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Violence, rape, and agency in the "gritty fantasies" - 17/12/2011 01:36:54 PM 1739 Views
Hm, ok. - 17/12/2011 10:51:21 PM 1138 Views
I think we largely agree - 17/12/2011 11:23:00 PM 1031 Views
Re: Hm, ok. - 26/12/2011 01:08:14 AM 1022 Views
Martin, Goodkind... - 18/12/2011 01:58:33 PM 1041 Views
More than just those - 18/12/2011 08:15:27 PM 972 Views
Re: More than just those - 26/12/2011 01:13:21 AM 896 Views
Re: Martin, Goodkind... - 26/12/2011 01:11:12 AM 912 Views
On more of a "meta" level, what makes a fantasy story "gritty" in the first place? - 19/12/2011 02:58:57 PM 916 Views
There has to be something more, though. - 19/12/2011 03:47:56 PM 1071 Views
Re: There has to be something more, though. - 19/12/2011 05:29:30 PM 947 Views
Re: There has to be something more, though. - 19/12/2011 09:06:14 PM 923 Views
I agree about Martin - haven't read enough Bakker to judge. - 19/12/2011 09:56:17 PM 977 Views
My problem with aSoIaF... - 20/12/2011 05:16:42 AM 971 Views
The Rhoynish influence pretty much ends in Dorne. - 20/12/2011 06:15:54 AM 951 Views
And that makes sense? - 20/12/2011 08:54:16 AM 1040 Views
Yes and no. - 20/12/2011 03:10:54 PM 1066 Views
Re: Yes and no. - 26/12/2011 03:12:01 AM 930 Views
Re: And that makes sense? - 18/05/2012 01:42:52 AM 1003 Views
Re: There has to be something more, though. - 20/12/2011 12:21:39 PM 879 Views
That's a question for each reader to answer then. - 20/12/2011 03:20:39 PM 782 Views
You appear to have not understood my point. - 20/12/2011 05:59:07 PM 831 Views
Re: There has to be something more, though. - 26/12/2011 03:14:04 AM 849 Views
Re: There has to be something more, though. - 26/12/2011 03:01:34 AM 876 Views
That's my general take as well - 20/12/2011 07:15:51 AM 865 Views
I like violence *NM* - 20/12/2011 07:51:39 PM 370 Views
Re: Violence, rape, and agency in the "gritty fantasies" - 25/12/2011 11:52:41 PM 1061 Views

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