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Re: There has to be something more, though. Werthead Send a noteboard - 19/12/2011 09:06:14 PM
In general, though, the level of misogyny in Martin, (particularly) Bakker, etc is plain ridiculous. To claim that's a legitimate reflection of the real world is absurd. Yes, there is prostitution, rape, gender/sex discrimination, etc to be encountered in everyday life even in the most wealthy of communities - but even the worst specific examples to be found in history don't come close the everday life portrayals those authors describe in their stories.


I'd agree with Bakker. The rape/misogyny in his work is ridiculous, and that's part of the intended effect (though that doesn't excuse it).

I think the complaints about the misogyny in Martin's books are somewhat shakier, however. First off, he has a significant number of major female characters with agency, several of whom do not use their sexuality to get what they want (Arya, most notably) whilst others do (Cersei, Daenerys) and others reject that notion (Brienne). Secondly, ASoIaF is much more closely based on - or at least inspired by - real historical events (the Red Wedding is a re-enactment of the Black Dinner, when King James II of Scotland personally killed Earl Douglas at a dinner held under a flag of safe conduct, and Douglas was stabbed through the throat and thrown out of a window like Robb, though his head was not removed that we know of) and the level of 'misogyny' reflects that. On a related note, Mary Gentle, in her research for ASH: A SECRET HISTORY, discovered evidence that child prostitution amongst camp followers during medieval warfare was commonplace, and depicts her heroine starting life in such a role, something that goes way beyond anything seen in Martin (or Bakker, for that matter).

In fact, ASoIaF rather lowballs the levels of violence and rape that take place during major conflicts. The accounts of the devastation of Silesia and much of Eastern Germany during the Red Army's march on Berlin in 1945 are truly disturbing, and the notion that medieval warfare did not feature such things when there was far less reporting going on seems unrealistic.
This message last edited by Werthead on 19/12/2011 at 09:06:58 PM
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Violence, rape, and agency in the "gritty fantasies" - 17/12/2011 01:36:54 PM 1804 Views
Hm, ok. - 17/12/2011 10:51:21 PM 1215 Views
I think we largely agree - 17/12/2011 11:23:00 PM 1097 Views
Re: Hm, ok. - 26/12/2011 01:08:14 AM 1085 Views
Martin, Goodkind... - 18/12/2011 01:58:33 PM 1102 Views
More than just those - 18/12/2011 08:15:27 PM 1035 Views
Re: More than just those - 26/12/2011 01:13:21 AM 958 Views
Re: Martin, Goodkind... - 26/12/2011 01:11:12 AM 941 Views
On more of a "meta" level, what makes a fantasy story "gritty" in the first place? - 19/12/2011 02:58:57 PM 982 Views
There has to be something more, though. - 19/12/2011 03:47:56 PM 1141 Views
Re: There has to be something more, though. - 19/12/2011 05:29:30 PM 1010 Views
Re: There has to be something more, though. - 19/12/2011 09:06:14 PM 992 Views
I agree about Martin - haven't read enough Bakker to judge. - 19/12/2011 09:56:17 PM 1039 Views
My problem with aSoIaF... - 20/12/2011 05:16:42 AM 1043 Views
The Rhoynish influence pretty much ends in Dorne. - 20/12/2011 06:15:54 AM 1015 Views
And that makes sense? - 20/12/2011 08:54:16 AM 1101 Views
Yes and no. - 20/12/2011 03:10:54 PM 1137 Views
Re: Yes and no. - 26/12/2011 03:12:01 AM 995 Views
Re: And that makes sense? - 18/05/2012 01:42:52 AM 1075 Views
Re: There has to be something more, though. - 20/12/2011 12:21:39 PM 943 Views
That's a question for each reader to answer then. - 20/12/2011 03:20:39 PM 852 Views
You appear to have not understood my point. - 20/12/2011 05:59:07 PM 894 Views
Re: There has to be something more, though. - 26/12/2011 03:14:04 AM 921 Views
Re: There has to be something more, though. - 26/12/2011 03:01:34 AM 940 Views
That's my general take as well - 20/12/2011 07:15:51 AM 928 Views
I like violence *NM* - 20/12/2011 07:51:39 PM 392 Views
Re: Violence, rape, and agency in the "gritty fantasies" - 25/12/2011 11:52:41 PM 1126 Views

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