Hm, ok. - Edit 1
Before modification by Dan at 17/12/2011 10:55:16 PM
I generally agree with the claim that, "beneath the violent, profanity-laced narratives lurks a rather conservative, misogynistic mindset where the rapes and degradations of groups traditionally removed from power (women, homosexuals of all genders) are portrayed in an almost lurid fashion".
However I think it's a mistake to draw overly broad conclusions about an author's, or a group of authors', mindsets as such that inform the work. A lot of it can be an unconscious impulse or predispositions. Most men generally don't know how to write well about rape in the sense of doing justice to the agency of the victims, since it's a cluster of concepts and experiences pretty far from most male psyches. Just as it's not useful to berate a blogger with ad-hominems over their interpretation of a work, it's equally harmful to decry an author as being a closet fascist, conservative, rape-fan, whatever one would like to call it.
As to whether or not all of this is a good thing or a bad thing or shouldn't be or can be allowed to be, I have no idea. I think it is important, however, for an author and his readers to be fairly honest and consistent about what perspective they're going to approach their work from. A situation like Abercrombie's is problematic because on the surface of it, and according to the stated justifications, the text seems to be attempting at realism. But many have pointed out that it also is at a deeper level in fact not realistic, but a phantasy that is focusing on and acting some of the seedier aspects of human experience. Please note that this does not mean they are subconsciously endorsing it, even if they are revelling in it on some level!
It seems like this was the case with Abercrombie, and I think he wasn't being fully honest in his work. It's not ok to write passages like the ones I saw lifted from Abercrombie's book. The writing was shit and did seem lurid. Someone defended the passage by assuring the author "wasn't hard" when he wrote it, but I really can't be sure. The fact is, a lot of male authors tend to lapse into writing from the perspective of the one inflicting force upon another, and consequently denying the agency of another. Most of this I'd wager isn't conscious, but if you track where to insert your own ego in the text, which character you're going to sort of invest as ego-ideal, it tends to be the one doing the violating. This particularly seems so in Abercrombie's case.
It's problematic across almost every sort of work, textual and visual, regardless of genre as well. In the fantasy world, it's a pretty mixed bag, and each author can be analyzed on this sliding scale of where the focus of the reader's self is invested. I'd like to go into more technical detail with my thoughts on the framework for sifting through this sort of thing, with Sartre and Lacan and lots of Greek, and would be more than happy to if anyone's interested, but for now I'll just leave this post as the garbled mess it is.
However I think it's a mistake to draw overly broad conclusions about an author's, or a group of authors', mindsets as such that inform the work. A lot of it can be an unconscious impulse or predispositions. Most men generally don't know how to write well about rape in the sense of doing justice to the agency of the victims, since it's a cluster of concepts and experiences pretty far from most male psyches. Just as it's not useful to berate a blogger with ad-hominems over their interpretation of a work, it's equally harmful to decry an author as being a closet fascist, conservative, rape-fan, whatever one would like to call it.
As to whether or not all of this is a good thing or a bad thing or shouldn't be or can be allowed to be, I have no idea. I think it is important, however, for an author and his readers to be fairly honest and consistent about what perspective they're going to approach their work from. A situation like Abercrombie's is problematic because on the surface of it, and according to the stated justifications, the text seems to be attempting at realism. But many have pointed out that it also is at a deeper level in fact not realistic, but a phantasy that is focusing on and acting some of the seedier aspects of human experience. Please note that this does not mean they are subconsciously endorsing it, even if they are revelling in it on some level!
It seems like this was the case with Abercrombie, and I think he wasn't being fully honest in his work. It's not ok to write passages like the ones I saw lifted from Abercrombie's book. The writing was shit and did seem lurid. Someone defended the passage by assuring the author "wasn't hard" when he wrote it, but I really can't be sure. The fact is, a lot of male authors tend to lapse into writing from the perspective of the one inflicting force upon another, and consequently denying the agency of another. Most of this I'd wager isn't conscious, but if you track where to insert your own ego in the text, which character you're going to sort of invest as ego-ideal, it tends to be the one doing the violating. This particularly seems so in Abercrombie's case.
It's problematic across almost every sort of work, textual and visual, regardless of genre as well. In the fantasy world, it's a pretty mixed bag, and each author can be analyzed on this sliding scale of where the focus of the reader's self is invested. I'd like to go into more technical detail with my thoughts on the framework for sifting through this sort of thing, with Sartre and Lacan and lots of Greek, and would be more than happy to if anyone's interested, but for now I'll just leave this post as the garbled mess it is.
I thought this issue, which is breaking off of an earlier discussion on Westeros, might lead to some interesting discussions here, so I'm copy/pasting what I wrote there for the split post. There are several links embedded in that post, so the link to the original thread is below for those who want to read the Requires Hate posts that are part of this discussion.
Last night in another thread, there emerged a discussion about the issue of lesbian rape and the lack of female agency in works such as Joe Abercrombie's The Last Argument of Kings. Shortly, posts from that thread will be ported over here, but I think it might behoove us to not just focus on that particular novel, but also consider the issue of violence and the often-associated lack of agency, particularly with females and homosexual characters, that often occur in the so-called "gritty" fantasies.
Since some in the discussion last night were reacting strongly to the comments made over at the Requires Hate blog, it bears keeping in mind that the quickest way to lose any sort of ground in a debate is to attack the person rather than counterpoint his or her arguments.
With this in mind, what I found interesting about the Requires Hate comments is the underlying belief that beneath the violent, profanity-laced narratives lurks a rather conservative, misogynistic mindset where the rapes and degradations of groups traditionally removed from power (women, homosexuals of all genders) are portrayed in an almost lurid fashion in several of these novels because it is assumed that because repression occurred in various human societies over different periods of time. This leaves aside, according to the argument presented in several other comments over there, that portraying only the worst elements unadulterated by the complexities of human interactions in which there was no steady, heavy oppression inevitably distorts the very real issues of agency/hegemony to the point where it is easy to assume that there was no agency of actions among these groups. The violence that is a hallmark of such stories (the battles, the rapes, the tortures, the intimidations, etc.) to some, like that reviewer quoted, represents not human nature but the distortion of it in service of downplaying the roles that the often-disenfranchised did play when direct access to power was denied.
Hopefully, pro and contra statements on the above paragraph will be the focus of this discussion and not the personal qualities of those forwarding or critiquing these arguments.
Last night in another thread, there emerged a discussion about the issue of lesbian rape and the lack of female agency in works such as Joe Abercrombie's The Last Argument of Kings. Shortly, posts from that thread will be ported over here, but I think it might behoove us to not just focus on that particular novel, but also consider the issue of violence and the often-associated lack of agency, particularly with females and homosexual characters, that often occur in the so-called "gritty" fantasies.
Since some in the discussion last night were reacting strongly to the comments made over at the Requires Hate blog, it bears keeping in mind that the quickest way to lose any sort of ground in a debate is to attack the person rather than counterpoint his or her arguments.
With this in mind, what I found interesting about the Requires Hate comments is the underlying belief that beneath the violent, profanity-laced narratives lurks a rather conservative, misogynistic mindset where the rapes and degradations of groups traditionally removed from power (women, homosexuals of all genders) are portrayed in an almost lurid fashion in several of these novels because it is assumed that because repression occurred in various human societies over different periods of time. This leaves aside, according to the argument presented in several other comments over there, that portraying only the worst elements unadulterated by the complexities of human interactions in which there was no steady, heavy oppression inevitably distorts the very real issues of agency/hegemony to the point where it is easy to assume that there was no agency of actions among these groups. The violence that is a hallmark of such stories (the battles, the rapes, the tortures, the intimidations, etc.) to some, like that reviewer quoted, represents not human nature but the distortion of it in service of downplaying the roles that the often-disenfranchised did play when direct access to power was denied.
Hopefully, pro and contra statements on the above paragraph will be the focus of this discussion and not the personal qualities of those forwarding or critiquing these arguments.