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Sure. rebelaessedai Send a noteboard - 13/12/2011 07:30:56 AM

Most fantasy authors are formulaic and derivative. Most of them have nothing more than a few "oh, that's an interesting idea" moments in their books. There are exceptions. One exception that I mention frequently is Solaris by Stanislaw Lem, which is a profound book regardless of how you want to characterize it.

I suspect you're going to find a lot more relevant science fiction than you will relevant fantasy, because science fiction has so many more ways to be relevant, from dystopian warning novels like 1984 or We or Fahrenheit 451 or Brave New World (all of which are probably literature with the possible exception of the last, which is pretty weak), to heavier science fiction like Arthur C. Clarke and Isaac Asimov (or Lem, as I previously mentioned).

Fantasy, by its very nature, tends to escapism or absurdity. Once you drop down dragons or elves or fairies or Canadians, the relevance to the real world diminishes automatically. Yes, you can have parables, or fairy tale-type stories with a moral (this is where children's fantasy actually thrives, like the Narnia books or the Harry Potter ones, both of which have value in the realm of children's literature), but chances are if you're writing that type of story you're not doing it to comment on the human condition.

I think it's interesting that you use the term "relevant". I don't think that's necessarily the same thing as commenting on the human condition. You can do that through any medium. I was having a conversation about the game Skyrim with my husband regarding this very subject. I've heard you say that gaming is a waste of time. But one of the decisions I recently had to make in playing the game was reflective of real life decisions in that either way I chose I would not be on the "good" or "evil" side. Either way I chose, people I knew and cared for would have to suffer, all for no more than who they chose to follow to lead their country. Good games can incorporate these kinds of choices, where your character has to live with the consequences of their actions.
Same with books, really, of any kind. I know what you're talking about when you refer to those formulaic fantasy or even scifi books- believe me, I've seen a lot of those, too. But have you ever read The Hyperion Cantos by Dan Simmons? Deep, thought-provoking mixture of science fiction and fantasy that I think should be a classic. I know you've heard Anastasia and I both mention Wraeththu by Storm Constantine. Probably a bit flowery language for your taste, but I was really questioning my place in the universe and the nature of love at the end of that. Something as deceptively simple as Beagle's The Last Unicorn, even. It's a cliched question but is it better to have loved and lost? Doesn't it speak to you about what it truly means to be human? Even something like Ender's Game by Card. I wrote my tenth grade final on this book- it was the only book I enjoyed reading all year because it wasn't Sheakespeare or Camus or Kafka making me want to go off myself. I wrote another paper the next year comparing and contrasting the meaning of "fate" in Gaiman's Neverwhere and Wiesel's Night.
There is plenty of genre fiction with meaning out there. I could go on and on and I'm sure there are plenty others who could as well. These are just some examples of things that I've personally found meaning in. I don't mind if it's not your cup of tea, but I also want to make the point that a lot of what I read has intellectual value as well.

Atheism is a religion like abstinence is a sex position. - Bill Maher

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Aren't the Tolkien comparisons getting a little...old? Dark Knight - 09/12/2011 09:51:39 PM 2863 Views

The comparison bothers me, but not because Tolkien isn't relevant. lord-of-shadow - 09/12/2011 10:05:22 PM 1729 Views

I agree with this. Nate - 09/12/2011 10:21:34 PM 1760 Views

Re: I agree with this. DomA - 10/12/2011 07:09:33 PM 1693 Views

Exactly *NM* ironclad - 12/12/2011 12:09:19 PM 861 Views

Only when shit works are being compared to him Larry - 09/12/2011 10:22:26 PM 1621 Views

Larry, Macharius - 10/12/2011 01:13:18 AM 1636 Views

Snide dismissal that will be passed off as for his own entertainment. Ghavrel - 10/12/2011 04:55:43 AM 1551 Views

We get a lot of that around here. *NM* lord-of-shadow - 10/12/2011 05:18:01 AM 645 Views

makes me wonder... LadyLorraine - 10/12/2011 04:37:33 PM 1537 Views

Re: makes me wonder... James - 11/12/2011 03:03:15 AM 1501 Views

Well-deserved condescension. Tom - 11/12/2011 03:54:27 AM 1672 Views

You're sure about that? A Deathwatch Guard - 11/12/2011 04:20:26 AM 1894 Views

Re: You're sure about that? James - 11/12/2011 05:25:08 AM 1622 Views

Re: You're sure about that? A Deathwatch Guard - 11/12/2011 06:03:02 AM 1484 Views

i think you shouldn't judge a whole world's school programs on your school

LadyLorraine - 11/12/2011 06:42:30 AM 1537 Views

Yeah, I'm limited in my knowledge, lol A Deathwatch Guard - 11/12/2011 08:03:26 AM 1550 Views

My school was...not great. James - 11/12/2011 04:02:36 PM 1575 Views

I'm 24. James - 11/12/2011 03:49:06 PM 1491 Views

If you're arguing that children should be able to read genre fiction, fine. Tom - 11/12/2011 08:52:27 PM 1419 Views

Well, I suppose it depends on the type of genre being read Larry - 11/12/2011 09:36:16 PM 1651 Views

How often do you hear the challenging writers mentioned at this site? Tom - 12/12/2011 02:03:05 PM 1390 Views

Only when you, me, and a couple others write reviews Larry - 12/12/2011 04:21:14 PM 1794 Views

Oh, it was the same as it always is Tom - 12/12/2011 05:23:56 PM 1502 Views

True Larry - 12/12/2011 06:29:10 PM 1591 Views

One note nossy - 13/12/2011 12:17:48 AM 1595 Views

Perhaps Larry - 13/12/2011 12:49:34 AM 1531 Views

*Sighs* Such is the plight of those shining few intelects... Narg - 23/12/2011 01:15:47 AM 1578 Views

Much of the actual "Classics", that is, Greek and Latin originals, kids would eat up. Dan - 12/12/2011 03:13:03 AM 1403 Views

Try teaching Apuleius in schools...

*NM* Tom - 12/12/2011 04:12:49 AM 764 Views

Plato is exciting, brutal and scandalous?

Legolas - 12/12/2011 09:59:13 PM 1467 Views

You're upfront and honest about it; he isn't. The difference matters to me. *NM* Ghavrel - 11/12/2011 05:18:42 AM 813 Views

Uhh...uh... Larry - 11/12/2011 05:34:23 AM 1503 Views

this is a bit off topic, but out of curiousity... LadyLorraine - 11/12/2011 06:28:35 AM 1611 Views

I've discussed this dozens of times at this site. Perhaps you've missed all of the posts. Tom - 11/12/2011 08:57:44 PM 1553 Views

mk I'll go look. I probably did miss it (or at least don't remember it!) LadyLorraine - 11/12/2011 09:08:02 PM 1516 Views

I have a successful career that was inspired by the video games I played as a child. *NM* lord-of-shadow - 11/12/2011 05:52:21 PM 842 Views

Now let's get all the people who just pissed their lives away with video games and see the %. Tom - 11/12/2011 08:58:42 PM 1653 Views

The majority of players neither waste their lives nor make a career out of it. lord-of-shadow - 11/12/2011 11:29:29 PM 1548 Views

Yeah, sorry, I don't think you could say that with a straight face in real life. *NM* Tom - 12/12/2011 04:13:52 AM 778 Views

Then you have a closed mind on the subject. Ironic, considering your stance on edification. *NM* lord-of-shadow - 12/12/2011 05:47:50 AM 719 Views

No, just with respect to you. *NM* Tom - 12/12/2011 02:00:15 PM 764 Views

Tom, you pulled the "Say that to my face!" line. You lost the right to talk about respect. *NM* lord-of-shadow - 12/12/2011 03:20:15 PM 812 Views

Once again, I really don't care what you think. *NM* Tom - 12/12/2011 03:37:40 PM 772 Views

Did I imply that you did? My apologies. I'd hate to insinuate that you'd stoop that low. *NM* lord-of-shadow - 12/12/2011 04:13:25 PM 737 Views

As well read as you seem to be, you think you'd be smart enough... MonCul - 11/12/2011 06:20:06 PM 1496 Views

I thought I have made it clear that I don't care if people don't like me here. Tom - 11/12/2011 08:44:58 PM 1420 Views

Re: I thought I have made it clear that I don't care if people don't like me here. Macharius - 12/12/2011 04:04:37 PM 1475 Views

That statement has just confused me. Tom - 12/12/2011 04:06:53 PM 1427 Views

Re: That statement has just confused me. Macharius - 12/12/2011 04:14:27 PM 1437 Views

I never learned Hittite. I had a book on pre-order for a long time but never ended up getting it. Tom - 12/12/2011 05:41:03 PM 1384 Views

What you have made clear, I think, is the fact that you deal in generalizations and stereotypes. MonCul - 12/12/2011 10:12:12 PM 1538 Views

There's an unintentional irony in what you say, alas Larry - 13/12/2011 12:44:26 AM 1456 Views

Tom, Dick, or Larry...you may use your true first name, but you're still an anonymous entity to most MonCul - 13/12/2011 04:49:35 AM 1664 Views

With such comeback skills, you must have ruled the playgrounds as a kid, no? Larry - 13/12/2011 05:21:42 AM 1669 Views

I thought it was a pretty good comeback.

MonCul - 13/12/2011 12:37:15 PM 1630 Views

Think again, Skippy

Larry - 13/12/2011 01:34:41 PM 1483 Views

There are no special snowflakes, are there?

Larry - 11/12/2011 09:39:21 PM 1418 Views

There are many way of widening one's horizons and broadening one's mind. Legolas - 11/12/2011 10:08:24 PM 1178 Views

I said as much in my comment Larry - 11/12/2011 10:20:03 PM 1446 Views

What I don't like- rebelaessedai - 12/12/2011 04:28:55 AM 1533 Views

Why don't you name something, then? Tom - 12/12/2011 04:40:29 AM 1484 Views

Sure. rebelaessedai - 13/12/2011 07:30:56 AM 1313 Views

Mentioning Ender's Game pretty much shot your argument in the foot. Tom - 13/12/2011 02:02:59 PM 1423 Views

You dismiss the entire video game medium because many games lack value. lord-of-shadow - 13/12/2011 03:59:11 PM 1568 Views

You're like the McDonald's paid advocate trying to say Big Macs are actually healthy. Tom - 13/12/2011 05:46:37 PM 1374 Views

McDonalds food is inherently unhealthy. lord-of-shadow - 13/12/2011 06:02:18 PM 1516 Views

For the sake of argument ... Nate - 13/12/2011 04:09:51 PM 1418 Views

Stephenson is not literature, that's for damn sure. Tom - 13/12/2011 05:49:24 PM 1366 Views

Thank you, The Voice of Lews Therin. *NM* Vivien - 16/12/2011 05:14:42 AM 830 Views

I'll leave it up to others to define as they wish against their self-conceptions of me

Larry - 10/12/2011 10:52:54 AM 1530 Views

that's alright. I really have no desire to stroke your twit-ego. *NM* LadyLorraine - 10/12/2011 04:36:56 PM 623 Views

Considering the firestorm I appear to have touched off, that may be best. Macharius - 12/12/2011 12:57:49 PM 1515 Views

I know, John Larry - 12/12/2011 04:27:04 PM 1406 Views

Re: I know, John Macharius - 12/12/2011 05:06:26 PM 1468 Views

As I've said in the past, I'd be scared if anyone agreed with me anywhere approaching 100%

Larry - 12/12/2011 06:33:52 PM 1402 Views

Re: As I've said in the past, I'd be scared if anyone agreed with me anywhere approaching 100%

Macharius - 12/12/2011 07:13:37 PM 1480 Views

Same guy Larry - 12/12/2011 07:26:13 PM 1526 Views

Ha! Excellent point. *NM* Tom - 11/12/2011 03:44:52 AM 750 Views

Blurbs are not generally very original in their comparisons - would kind of defeat their purpose. Legolas - 09/12/2011 10:42:17 PM 1506 Views

I have to agree. ? - 09/12/2011 10:54:06 PM 1520 Views

They're there for marketing A Deathwatch Guard - 10/12/2011 12:20:17 AM 1506 Views

Most of those comparisons are like that anyway DomA - 10/12/2011 05:32:45 PM 1638 Views

Maybe if so much of the genre weren't crap derivative works it wouldn't be so common. *NM* Tom - 11/12/2011 03:44:24 AM 745 Views

To be fair, a lot of it isn't. rebelaessedai - 11/12/2011 04:06:07 AM 1455 Views

I suspect that if it really isn't derivative it's not being compared to Tolkien in the first place. Tom - 11/12/2011 04:18:57 AM 1387 Views

That's true. rebelaessedai - 11/12/2011 11:08:01 AM 1376 Views

But see, that's where things start to get referred back to Tolkien. Tom - 12/12/2011 04:30:12 AM 1531 Views

Maybe they mean something else by using his name. Cannoli - 11/12/2011 03:50:15 AM 1460 Views

When they don't work, yes. nossy - 11/12/2011 03:18:44 PM 1462 Views

The Tolkien fanaticism gets old. And yes, for me it is unreadable. everynametaken - 11/12/2011 11:37:53 PM 1446 Views

No, because the movies are very contemporary and relevant, thus he will remain so for quite a while. Dan - 12/12/2011 03:14:53 AM 1505 Views

Disagree all you want, but LotR is still the touchstone when it comes to works of fantasy. Vodalus - 12/12/2011 03:48:20 AM 1418 Views

Yes *NM* Hieshyn - 22/12/2011 07:08:38 PM 864 Views

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<quote id="237645">
<quote id="237491">Most fantasy authors are formulaic and derivative. Most of them have nothing more than a few "oh, that's an interesting idea" moments in their books. There are exceptions. One exception that I mention frequently is Solaris by Stanislaw Lem, which is a profound book regardless of how you want to characterize it.</quote>
<quote id="237491">I suspect you're going to find a lot more relevant science fiction than you will relevant fantasy, because science fiction has so many more ways to be relevant, from dystopian warning novels like 1984 or We or Fahrenheit 451 or Brave New World (all of which are probably literature with the possible exception of the last, which is pretty weak), to heavier science fiction like Arthur C. Clarke and Isaac Asimov (or Lem, as I previously mentioned).</quote>
<quote id="237491">Fantasy, by its very nature, tends to escapism or absurdity. Once you drop down dragons or elves or fairies or Canadians, the relevance to the real world diminishes automatically. Yes, you can have parables, or fairy tale-type stories with a moral (this is where children's fantasy actually thrives, like the Narnia books or the Harry Potter ones, both of which have value in the realm of children's literature), but chances are if you're writing that type of story you're not doing it to comment on the human condition.</quote>

I think it's interesting that you use the term "relevant". I don't think that's necessarily the same thing as commenting on the human condition. You can do that through any medium. I was having a conversation about the game Skyrim with my husband regarding this very subject. I've heard you say that gaming is a waste of time. But one of the decisions I recently had to make in playing the game was reflective of real life decisions in that either way I chose I would not be on the "good" or "evil" side. Either way I chose, people I knew and cared for would have to suffer, all for no more than who they chose to follow to lead their country. Good games can incorporate these kinds of choices, where your character has to live with the consequences of their actions. 
Same with books, really, of any kind. I know what you're talking about when you refer to those formulaic fantasy or even scifi books- believe me, I've seen a lot of those, too. But have you ever read The Hyperion Cantos by Dan Simmons? Deep, thought-provoking mixture of science fiction and fantasy that I think should be a classic. I know you've heard Anastasia and I both mention Wraeththu by Storm Constantine. Probably a bit flowery language for your taste, but I was really questioning my place in the universe and the nature of love at the end of that. Something as deceptively simple as Beagle's The Last Unicorn, even. It's a cliched question but is it better to have loved and lost? Doesn't it speak to you about what it truly means to be human? Even something like Ender's Game by Card. I wrote my tenth grade final on this book- it was the only book I enjoyed reading all year because it wasn't Sheakespeare or Camus or Kafka making me want to go off myself. I wrote another paper the next year comparing and contrasting the meaning of "fate" in Gaiman's Neverwhere and Wiesel's Night. 
There is plenty of genre fiction with meaning out there. I could go on and on and I'm sure there are plenty others who could as well. These are just some examples of things that I've personally found meaning in. I don't mind if it's not your cup of tea, but I also want to make the point that a lot of what I read has intellectual value as well. 
</quote>

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