Active Users:850 Time:24/12/2024 06:24:08 PM
Re: I agree with this. DomA Send a noteboard - 10/12/2011 07:09:33 PM
Jordan might be the only modern fantasy writer I would say can be properly compared to Tolkien. They're different, but the Wheel of Time is the only modern fantasy series I know that approaches its world and its themes in a similar manner. (I freely admit that there could be better examples I simply haven't read.)


I don't really agree with this. Jordan didn't approach his world in a way even similar to Tolkien. Tolkien's world building was essentially poetic, an deeply rooted in poetic motifs and notions, from the power of words to the beauty of nature. It's grounded in notions of a golden age. Tolkien also closely imitated the mechanisms of myth in his world building.

Jordan's world building is purely cartesian, and belongs far more with (and was inspired far more by) the approach of SF writers than Tolkien's. There's nothing of the romanticism and poetry of Tolkien in his approach (that others than Jordan have tried to imitate). Jordan sought to create logical patterns, his world is built with the use of logical grids... the presence of A and B should logically make C emerge in this culture, and so on). His cosmology and his magic system are rooted in scientific and para-scientific notions - not all of them from pure and applied sciences, he went also to psychology theories, historical theories, philosophical theories and so on (even for his taoist elements he went to theories like the ones exposed in The Tao of Physics, connecting ancient beliefs to modern physics). Where Tolkien went to poetic notions like having a world becoming real from the voices of angelic beings, Jordan was turning to quantum physics than reverse engineered his features so they would have the appearance and "mood" of Fantasy (one small example is his Portal Stones, something inspired by Quantum theories and turned into something no longer understood that was turned into magical artefacts totally natural in a fantasy world)

Jordan's references to myth are essentially a sugarcoating. He's not adopted their mechanisms the way Tolkien did, and has rarely followed the "logic" of myths. He's pushing into the Fantasy realms notions such as Eliade's about cyclical time, and as logic thus dictated, he found ways to turn elements that one day will become myth in our reality into tangible truths in his contemporary story, from villains whose name will eventually be twisted in those of demons in reality's myth to bio-engineered black monstrous dogs that one day will appear in folktales, and mythical swords that are actually high tech devices that work along scientific principles and so on, and he similarly reverse engineered myths and other references. There are no myth in WOT. Myths are shown as historical truths that degraded into legends that turned into myth. Not everything is explained, but Jordan makes clear that everything could be rationally explained.

Tolkien aside from the evolution of languages, didn't use any science as his inspiration, but the poetic tradition. Jordan's world is one of speculative fiction, in the vein of science-fiction but used in a Fantasy context. He didn't seek to imitate Tolkien in creating a mythology, he sought to give the Fantasy genre a world in the tradition of SF writers like Frank Herbert, Isaac Asimov, Pierre Boulé and so on.

Aside from the manichean central core of WOT, Jordan didn't share many themes with Tolkien (his nods to Tolkien's core themes came mostly from the Ogier), nor did he used them in a similar way. Tolkien was again mostly intuitive and poetic in his use of themes. Jordan's themes are, for the most part, developped by introducing motifs in a nearly mathematical (or musical, which is a bit the same) way. A major motif for one character in WOT systematically will have an important variation for a second character and be a minor theme for a third. There's a mechanical underpining to it all. Jordan's themes are also much more modern and far less focussed (WOT is a huge melting pot of themes). It's a solid departing from Tolkien and his glorification of a lost past and pre-industrialized world.

Jordan isn't so different from the others in the first post-Tolkien generations. WOT was one the early attempts to break away from Tolkien rather than imitate him. Jordan was one of the earliest to attempt it, and didn't go as far as younger writers would start doing a few years after he started his series. Behind WOT, there's still the big manichean epic, Jordan mostly sought to use it in a series that would have a wholly different tone and focus, a kind of historical saga borrowing heavily from the tropes of other popular and genre literature traditions with epic events still at its center, where Tolkien was still writing a traditional epic. Jordan was already an attempt at rejuvenating a genre that had turned in circles after Tolkien (and still remains there with some like Tad Williams, Brooks and so on) by mixing into Epic Fantasy several other genres, from feuilleton à la Dumas to western epics à la Louis L'Amour to social comedy. Heck, there's even simili-murder mysteries in WOT. Others after Jordan, like Martin, have furthered departed from the Heroic Epic, but with essentially the same idea of mixing it with other genres to make it fresh. The next generation pushed that notion further, eventually for some getting rid oompletely of the manichean central epic, which writers like Jordan and Martin haven't fully done, and others like Erikson or Sanderson in Mistborn have skirted around, by letting believe there was a central manichean opposition and revealing along the way there wasn't really one. Jordan and Martin in the 90s were already at the phase "epics are fun, but it's hard to renew it after Tolkien so let's try not to make it the central piece and give a different focus to the series... the stories of a whole world during epic times, and a character and adventure driven story, or a war chronicle that would draw only minimally on mythology as some epic conflict is still brewing in the background instead of just rewriting LOTR with a slightly different setting". After them it's reached a new stage, where many writers thought of inventing new forms for Fantasy that would get rid of the central conflict, or the hero's journey, altogether - and created Fantasies that are also more and more divorced from mythology.

But I think Jordan is hardly the most Tolkien-esque of the modern writers. I would cite Terry Brooks, Tad Williams, to name but two, who are far more "traditional".
Reply to message
Aren't the Tolkien comparisons getting a little...old? - 09/12/2011 09:51:39 PM 2863 Views
The comparison bothers me, but not because Tolkien isn't relevant. - 09/12/2011 10:05:22 PM 1729 Views
I agree with this. - 09/12/2011 10:21:34 PM 1760 Views
Re: I agree with this. - 10/12/2011 07:09:33 PM 1694 Views
Exactly *NM* - 12/12/2011 12:09:19 PM 861 Views
Only when shit works are being compared to him - 09/12/2011 10:22:26 PM 1622 Views
Larry, - 10/12/2011 01:13:18 AM 1636 Views
Snide dismissal that will be passed off as for his own entertainment. - 10/12/2011 04:55:43 AM 1551 Views
We get a lot of that around here. *NM* - 10/12/2011 05:18:01 AM 645 Views
makes me wonder... - 10/12/2011 04:37:33 PM 1537 Views
Re: makes me wonder... - 11/12/2011 03:03:15 AM 1501 Views
Well-deserved condescension. - 11/12/2011 03:54:27 AM 1672 Views
You're sure about that? - 11/12/2011 04:20:26 AM 1894 Views
Re: You're sure about that? - 11/12/2011 05:25:08 AM 1622 Views
Re: You're sure about that? - 11/12/2011 06:03:02 AM 1484 Views
i think you shouldn't judge a whole world's school programs on your school - 11/12/2011 06:42:30 AM 1537 Views
Yeah, I'm limited in my knowledge, lol - 11/12/2011 08:03:26 AM 1550 Views
My school was...not great. - 11/12/2011 04:02:36 PM 1575 Views
I'm 24. - 11/12/2011 03:49:06 PM 1491 Views
If you're arguing that children should be able to read genre fiction, fine. - 11/12/2011 08:52:27 PM 1419 Views
Well, I suppose it depends on the type of genre being read - 11/12/2011 09:36:16 PM 1651 Views
How often do you hear the challenging writers mentioned at this site? - 12/12/2011 02:03:05 PM 1390 Views
Only when you, me, and a couple others write reviews - 12/12/2011 04:21:14 PM 1795 Views
Oh, it was the same as it always is - 12/12/2011 05:23:56 PM 1502 Views
True - 12/12/2011 06:29:10 PM 1591 Views
One note - 13/12/2011 12:17:48 AM 1596 Views
Perhaps - 13/12/2011 12:49:34 AM 1531 Views
*Sighs* Such is the plight of those shining few intelects... - 23/12/2011 01:15:47 AM 1578 Views
Much of the actual "Classics", that is, Greek and Latin originals, kids would eat up. - 12/12/2011 03:13:03 AM 1403 Views
Try teaching Apuleius in schools... *NM* - 12/12/2011 04:12:49 AM 764 Views
Plato is exciting, brutal and scandalous? - 12/12/2011 09:59:13 PM 1468 Views
You're upfront and honest about it; he isn't. The difference matters to me. *NM* - 11/12/2011 05:18:42 AM 813 Views
Uhh...uh... - 11/12/2011 05:34:23 AM 1504 Views
this is a bit off topic, but out of curiousity... - 11/12/2011 06:28:35 AM 1612 Views
There are no special snowflakes, are there? - 11/12/2011 09:39:21 PM 1418 Views
There are many way of widening one's horizons and broadening one's mind. - 11/12/2011 10:08:24 PM 1178 Views
I said as much in my comment - 11/12/2011 10:20:03 PM 1447 Views
What I don't like- - 12/12/2011 04:28:55 AM 1533 Views
Why don't you name something, then? - 12/12/2011 04:40:29 AM 1484 Views
Sure. - 13/12/2011 07:30:56 AM 1313 Views
Mentioning Ender's Game pretty much shot your argument in the foot. - 13/12/2011 02:02:59 PM 1423 Views
You dismiss the entire video game medium because many games lack value. - 13/12/2011 03:59:11 PM 1568 Views
You're like the McDonald's paid advocate trying to say Big Macs are actually healthy. - 13/12/2011 05:46:37 PM 1375 Views
McDonalds food is inherently unhealthy. - 13/12/2011 06:02:18 PM 1516 Views
For the sake of argument ... - 13/12/2011 04:09:51 PM 1418 Views
Stephenson is not literature, that's for damn sure. - 13/12/2011 05:49:24 PM 1366 Views
Thank you, The Voice of Lews Therin. *NM* - 16/12/2011 05:14:42 AM 831 Views
I'll leave it up to others to define as they wish against their self-conceptions of me - 10/12/2011 10:52:54 AM 1530 Views
that's alright. I really have no desire to stroke your twit-ego. *NM* - 10/12/2011 04:36:56 PM 623 Views
Considering the firestorm I appear to have touched off, that may be best. - 12/12/2011 12:57:49 PM 1516 Views
I know, John - 12/12/2011 04:27:04 PM 1407 Views
Re: I know, John - 12/12/2011 05:06:26 PM 1468 Views
As I've said in the past, I'd be scared if anyone agreed with me anywhere approaching 100% - 12/12/2011 06:33:52 PM 1402 Views
Re: As I've said in the past, I'd be scared if anyone agreed with me anywhere approaching 100% - 12/12/2011 07:13:37 PM 1480 Views
Same guy - 12/12/2011 07:26:13 PM 1526 Views
Ha! Excellent point. *NM* - 11/12/2011 03:44:52 AM 750 Views
I have to agree. - 09/12/2011 10:54:06 PM 1521 Views
They're there for marketing - 10/12/2011 12:20:17 AM 1506 Views
Most of those comparisons are like that anyway - 10/12/2011 05:32:45 PM 1639 Views
Maybe if so much of the genre weren't crap derivative works it wouldn't be so common. *NM* - 11/12/2011 03:44:24 AM 746 Views
To be fair, a lot of it isn't. - 11/12/2011 04:06:07 AM 1455 Views
I suspect that if it really isn't derivative it's not being compared to Tolkien in the first place. - 11/12/2011 04:18:57 AM 1387 Views
That's true. - 11/12/2011 11:08:01 AM 1376 Views
Maybe they mean something else by using his name. - 11/12/2011 03:50:15 AM 1460 Views
When they don't work, yes. - 11/12/2011 03:18:44 PM 1462 Views
The Tolkien fanaticism gets old. And yes, for me it is unreadable. - 11/12/2011 11:37:53 PM 1447 Views
Yes *NM* - 22/12/2011 07:08:38 PM 864 Views

Reply to Message