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Daenerys Targaryen & lifetime achievement award to Lord Rickard Stark Cannoli Send a noteboard - 17/08/2011 12:38:40 AM
Ramsay Bolton, hands down. That man has to die painful. I sooo wished for Reek/Theon to do something about it! I probably didn't even hate Cersei as much in the last few books as I hated Ramsay here.


Ramsay's a clown. Eventually his antics will push people beyond their tolerances, no matter how boosted by their need to curry favor with his father. He's Cersei with balls - he'll destroy himself once his competent but too-paternally-tolerant father is out of the picture.

The real asshole, in my opinion, is Daenerys. She is as bad a ruler as Cersei, who had the decency to usurp her kingdom with far more subtlety and less bloodshed (or at least less that is directly her fault - a lot stems from the murder of Ned Stark, in explicit defiance of her wishes), than Daenerys, who invades and sacks Mereen for their explicit and provocative decision to be on her route of march, and to have old alliances and friendships with cities that refused to give her slaves cheaply. Her entire war in the previous books was unjustified, and now we see her ruling Mereen based entirely on her whims and wishes. The goodness of her intentions does not excuse the fact that her very presence and existence in the city is a crime and the Sons of the Harpy are completely justified in their executions of her Unsullied and shavepates and brazen beasts. Less so of the freedmen they later target, but how is that any different from her targeting people for their association with the slave trade upon which the entire city and region depend? I also note that her moral indignation to the existence of slavers and slavery comes only when she fails to profit from it herself, and then disguises her outright robbery of the Unsullied under the pretense of an emancipation crusade. She ordered her slave soldiers to kill anyone wearing a tokar back in Astapor, so how can she complain of her enemies turning around and serving her the same dish in Mereen? She whines about her "children" and their suffering, but the killings and murderers are happening because of her. The violence is because of her unjust and unwarranted invasion and occupation of a foreign city that did her no harm.

All of her whining about sacrifice for her people is obnoxious too. Her "rights" to rule anything depend entirely on her having been born the daughter of a king. She seems to be acting on the premise that her blood somehow elevates her above ANYONE, not just grants her the right to inherit her father's throne, as his last surviving child. She is a "queen" of the "dragon's" blood, so of course she sees herself as possessing the right to rule foreigners who have never accepted the rule of ANY Targaryen. Meanwhile, the people of Westeros, to whom she owes the DUTY of rulership, must wait on her pleasure. In this, Daenerys is not unlike Tommen in the comparison Varys draws for Kevan Lannister; she seeks the eventual crown of Westeros solely because it is her RIGHT. If she truly felt a duty to serve her people in the Seven Kingdoms, she would not expect them to wait on her personal growth experiment of practice-ruling Mereen.

Up until this book, the candidacy of Daenerys rested on the fact that she was the only one left who could reunite Westeros and bring peace and justice once more to the country. Now, with another candidate with all her qualifications, minus the uncontrollable fire-breathing, man-eating lizards, who has been raised as a proper Westeros noble and trained to rule, rather than haphazardly tutored by the Mad King's truest son, Daenerys just looks like more of the same. The only difference between her and Cersei, is the fact that some of her emotional whims which get enacted as policy might be founded on genuinely benevolent intentions.


As for Rickard Stark, if what Barbrey Dustin says about him is true, all of the sufferings and failures of his descendants can be laid at his feet. The fact that no Lord of Winterfell had ever built a sept in the castle strongly suggests they really never did marry southern women, or have much to do with the rest of the Seven Kingdoms in times past. There are certainly no reports of Starks or their bannerman mentioned in the Blackfyre Rebellion in the Dunk & Egg stories. Now, however, Rickard comes along and decides to start making connections with the Southern realms, and we get Lyanna unhappily betrothed to drunken, over-sexed glutton, encountering a selfish prince with all sorts of chick-magnet qualities, and getting herself kidnapped/eloped with him, touching off events that lead to her death and the murder of her father & brother. Then there is the betrothal to the idiotic Tully family, which can be seen as the source of most of the rest of the Starks' misfortunes (Ned becoming foster brothers with the aforementioned drunken asshole being the source of the rest). It was Edmure's incompetence that necessitated Robb's moving south to liberate Riverrun, and his ego that ruined Robb's strategy for getting Tywin Lannister out of the way. It was Catelyn's arrogance and blind-stupid trust in those who shared her childhood at Riverrun that precipitated the whole conflict in the first place, and compounded her idiocies by losing Tyrion, thus leaving the Starks and Tullys with the burden of starting the war, and none of the benefits of her actions, such as possession of a hostage. Nice going, Ricky. The Starks last 8,000 years by keeping to themselves and staying in the North, but no. He has to go sniffing around the South and gets a spoiled, idiotic granddaughter who betrays her father for the court society.
Cannoli
"Sometimes unhinged, sometimes unfair, always entertaining"
- The Crownless

“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Deus Vult!
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A Dance with Dragons discussion thread - 11/07/2011 10:48:23 PM 6510 Views
Okay, first impressions. Basically spoiler-free, I suppose. - 11/07/2011 11:40:31 PM 2072 Views
I have it! *NM* - 12/07/2011 05:42:27 AM 1119 Views
A general question to get the discussion started: will two more books be enough? - 12/07/2011 02:22:52 PM 2278 Views
A very good question *major spoilers, then* - 12/07/2011 02:55:05 PM 2242 Views
Oh, come on. If anyone can do it, Martin can. - 15/07/2011 03:48:27 AM 1919 Views
It'll be tight. - 12/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 2238 Views
No but I think 3 will be possible - 26/07/2011 03:15:02 AM 2049 Views
what is Purple Wedding? *NM* - 27/07/2011 08:37:04 AM 1014 Views
Joffrey and Margaery wedding - 27/07/2011 04:26:04 PM 2088 Views
Hero of the book? - 12/07/2011 10:12:02 PM 2384 Views
Lord Manderly gets my vote. - 12/07/2011 10:41:19 PM 2179 Views
Re: Hero of the book? - 12/07/2011 10:43:20 PM 2047 Views
Re: Hero of the book? - 12/07/2011 11:50:29 PM 2048 Views
Ohh, so that was what that was about. - 17/07/2011 07:08:19 PM 2075 Views
That's what I thought too. - 25/07/2011 01:48:50 AM 2082 Views
Victorian Greyjoy = Hero of the book *NM* - 21/07/2011 06:20:25 AM 1194 Views
Asshole of the book? - 12/07/2011 10:46:10 PM 2253 Views
Agreed. - 12/07/2011 11:18:07 PM 2185 Views
Yeah, little doubt there. - 17/07/2011 07:09:53 PM 2031 Views
Seriously... - 18/07/2011 03:07:47 AM 2028 Views
Daenerys Targaryen & lifetime achievement award to Lord Rickard Stark - 17/08/2011 12:38:40 AM 1973 Views
Idiot of the book. - 12/07/2011 11:21:51 PM 2287 Views
lol yep, definitely *NM* - 13/07/2011 08:12:42 AM 1125 Views
Re: Idiot of the book. - 17/07/2011 12:42:20 AM 2155 Views
Wait... no she doesn't! - 17/07/2011 01:29:52 AM 2048 Views
She thinks both - 18/07/2011 12:22:59 AM 1984 Views
So... - 17/07/2011 07:18:24 PM 2010 Views
No, it's him. - 18/07/2011 12:25:33 AM 1993 Views
Is there any hot sex scenes? I won't be able to read it for a while *NM* - 13/07/2011 02:35:49 PM 1195 Views
One or two, but not all that long ones *NM* - 13/07/2011 02:57:12 PM 1159 Views
Great Ending - 14/07/2011 01:21:53 AM 2282 Views
Really? - 14/07/2011 09:36:01 AM 2212 Views
Re: Really? - 14/07/2011 09:38:34 AM 1864 Views
Re: Great Ending - 18/07/2011 02:05:00 AM 2006 Views
YES! - 14/07/2011 02:38:48 AM 1844 Views
Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply - 16/07/2011 07:27:43 PM 2017 Views
Re: Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply - 17/07/2011 12:45:52 AM 1994 Views
I don't know what to think... (spoiler) - 14/07/2011 08:59:39 AM 2212 Views
Probably not. - 14/07/2011 09:19:03 AM 2189 Views
Re: Probably not. - 14/07/2011 03:57:55 PM 2033 Views
I think the two are mixed up. - 14/07/2011 11:23:06 PM 2099 Views
Re: I think the two are mixed up. - 18/07/2011 02:10:29 AM 1950 Views
What made least sense for me as far as that is concerned... - 14/07/2011 11:51:20 AM 2094 Views
They didn't. - 14/07/2011 11:24:53 PM 2126 Views
I see - 15/07/2011 08:28:09 AM 2044 Views
Didn't Jon just announced - 26/07/2011 02:51:07 AM 2006 Views
Something I totally missed first time through - 14/07/2011 09:40:33 AM 2395 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through - 16/07/2011 01:24:23 AM 2323 Views
Yep, that's what he said/thought - 17/07/2011 05:02:32 AM 2140 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through - 23/07/2011 04:14:38 PM 1975 Views
Well that brings new meaning - 26/07/2011 02:53:18 AM 1897 Views
I'm still not fully done, but about the Reek chapters... - 14/07/2011 04:05:29 PM 2125 Views
Agreed - 14/07/2011 06:18:15 PM 2139 Views
There's another... - 14/07/2011 07:16:11 PM 1948 Views
There's that... - 17/07/2011 01:12:33 AM 1997 Views
It's worse than that... - 17/07/2011 01:26:50 AM 2019 Views
Torture is wrong, and those chapters kinda proved it. *NM* - 26/07/2011 02:53:55 AM 1100 Views
Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) - 16/07/2011 08:11:30 AM 2135 Views
Re: Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) - 17/07/2011 01:02:10 AM 2080 Views
You put words to my thoughts exactly. - 18/08/2011 09:17:09 PM 1981 Views
It should be re-titled A Jump with Sharks - 17/07/2011 06:00:37 PM 2196 Views
Publishers are more interested in the bottom line. - 18/07/2011 12:31:56 AM 1963 Views
Sadly, I am likely overestimating the intelligence of the readers. - 18/07/2011 03:05:12 AM 2190 Views
I felt bummed by Sanderson's new series. - 18/07/2011 05:25:09 AM 2026 Views
I bought that book but have yet to read it. - 18/07/2011 01:09:15 PM 1978 Views
Re: I bought that book but have yet to read it. - 20/07/2011 06:45:46 AM 1991 Views
You might like this quote from House of Leaves by Mark Z Danielewski. - 11/08/2011 03:42:05 PM 2105 Views
I'm afraid I have to agree with what seems to be the majority opinion... - 17/07/2011 07:35:47 PM 2128 Views
And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading? - 17/07/2011 07:39:15 PM 2000 Views
Yeah, I agree. - 18/07/2011 05:59:58 PM 2049 Views
The book really shows it is AFFC part 2 - 26/07/2011 03:00:07 AM 2030 Views
Am I The Only One In Love With Arya's Chapters? *spoilers maybe* - 18/07/2011 02:22:00 AM 2034 Views
I enjoyed them, very solid chapters. - 18/07/2011 12:50:43 PM 2079 Views
Unlike others, I won't start a separate thread to express my thoughts - 19/07/2011 11:21:17 AM 2185 Views
Yeah, I wished there was a way to move them in here! - 19/07/2011 01:42:51 PM 1951 Views
Me too... but going and complaining about them seems so lame, too. - 19/07/2011 07:34:47 PM 1952 Views
I agree with Jens, good balanced review. *NM* - 19/07/2011 07:50:13 PM 1092 Views
I think you let him off too easily. - 20/07/2011 04:19:07 AM 2084 Views
Your review is a little too generous (in my opinion) - 20/07/2011 06:57:45 AM 2259 Views
I find myself both depressed and let down... - 20/07/2011 06:37:16 AM 2378 Views
Am I the only one who really likes... - 20/07/2011 06:04:00 PM 2206 Views
yeh, he is nice... *NM* - 20/07/2011 06:20:13 PM 1081 Views
Davos is probably my favourite - 20/07/2011 09:51:03 PM 1843 Views
The six bodies fired by the trebuchet - 20/07/2011 10:36:16 PM 2045 Views
Yes, I was confused by that too. - 20/07/2011 10:53:35 PM 1997 Views
Probably pale mare victims. Seige warfare via plague - 20/07/2011 11:23:10 PM 2031 Views
Yes, I considered that as well... - 20/07/2011 11:48:32 PM 1970 Views
Have Quentyn's two mates already been sent off a this point? - 21/07/2011 02:03:15 PM 2039 Views
That could be it. *NM* - 21/07/2011 01:43:16 PM 996 Views
Stannis - 21/07/2011 08:43:40 AM 1999 Views
It's entirely possible Stannis was killed - 21/07/2011 02:09:10 PM 2079 Views
I highly doubt he's dead - 21/07/2011 07:29:59 PM 2044 Views
The bluff makes the most sense: if the Boltons beat Stannis, why does he ask for Theon & Jeyne? - 22/07/2011 12:01:30 AM 2098 Views
Yeah... - 22/07/2011 12:27:53 AM 1983 Views
The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. - 21/07/2011 10:43:43 PM 2072 Views
Re: The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. - 22/07/2011 05:42:13 PM 2169 Views
Alternatively.. - 22/07/2011 09:13:46 PM 1997 Views
Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? - 22/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 2053 Views
None of them. - 22/07/2011 06:25:19 PM 1947 Views
Is that personal opinion or based on something Martin said? *NM* - 22/07/2011 06:37:57 PM 1088 Views
Opinion - 22/07/2011 07:43:16 PM 1987 Views
I think there are some god's, just given different names. Same with the magic. - 22/07/2011 09:24:51 PM 1972 Views
Lose the apostrophe in the subject line. Then: on what basis do you assume this? - 23/07/2011 02:28:49 AM 2011 Views
You might want to stop wasting time correcting others typos. As for the gods... - 23/07/2011 04:53:59 AM 1889 Views
You might want to stop making them. Particularly glaring ones like that. - 23/07/2011 05:01:03 AM 2073 Views
A typo can't be "glaring"... - 23/07/2011 08:08:51 AM 1945 Views
Sure it can. Glaring: conspicuous or obvious. - 23/07/2011 03:52:57 PM 1957 Views
Morality stems from god? - 22/07/2011 10:47:59 PM 1966 Views
Of course it does - 23/07/2011 02:26:50 AM 1937 Views
On second thought, let's address the issue directly. - 23/07/2011 05:14:59 AM 2046 Views
Perhaps... - 24/07/2011 07:03:24 PM 1977 Views
Its simple... - 24/07/2011 07:37:11 PM 1982 Views
I disagree... - 25/07/2011 04:10:04 AM 2038 Views
Bullshit. - 25/07/2011 05:44:41 AM 1922 Views
Re: Bullshit. - 25/07/2011 06:27:09 AM 1832 Views
Some thoughts... - 25/07/2011 04:54:05 AM 1947 Views
It's not an objective morality. - 25/07/2011 05:41:33 AM 1932 Views
Its not that simple... - 25/07/2011 06:21:39 AM 1992 Views
I don't disagree with most of what you said. I just reach a different conclusion. - 25/07/2011 01:57:31 PM 1924 Views
Well... - 25/07/2011 05:02:45 PM 1940 Views
How then do you deal with the Euthyphro dilemma? - 16/08/2011 01:43:18 PM 1802 Views
Re: Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? - 25/07/2011 02:24:07 PM 1869 Views
Whats the best new POV - 26/07/2011 03:14:05 AM 1989 Views
Barristan - 26/07/2011 12:23:20 PM 1958 Views
Didn't Aeron "Damphair" Greyjoy also only have 2 POVs - 26/07/2011 03:56:57 PM 2021 Views
Agreed. *NM* - 26/07/2011 11:33:11 PM 1125 Views
thirded. - 27/07/2011 04:16:26 PM 1832 Views
Absolutely *NM* - 29/07/2011 02:31:54 AM 1208 Views
Things you missed till they were pointed out via others or via a reread - 26/07/2011 03:23:53 AM 2131 Views
A bit. - 26/07/2011 12:32:32 PM 2090 Views
- 26/07/2011 03:46:54 PM 2045 Views
Re: - 27/07/2011 12:43:43 AM 1989 Views
Martin doesn't have to do anything - 27/07/2011 01:33:36 AM 2063 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything - 27/07/2011 04:38:19 AM 1932 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything - 27/07/2011 08:58:55 AM 1854 Views
Re: - 27/07/2011 04:27:18 AM 2055 Views
I like your theory. - 27/07/2011 04:35:22 PM 2071 Views
Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. - 26/07/2011 11:32:18 PM 2058 Views
Re: Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. - 27/07/2011 02:00:42 AM 1946 Views
Eh? - 29/07/2011 04:44:17 PM 2063 Views
This is complicated. - 31/07/2011 10:43:15 PM 2274 Views
Wait...a woman crowned for beauty was the victorious mystery knight? - 01/08/2011 03:00:49 AM 1958 Views
It is believed the Knight of the Laughing Tree is one of two people - 01/08/2011 04:47:21 AM 2019 Views
Yup. - 02/08/2011 12:03:26 AM 1894 Views
Also... - 02/08/2011 07:17:43 AM 1992 Views
And yet, my huge brain figures it out - 04/08/2011 04:20:06 PM 1968 Views
I've read this scene yesterday and I missed this... - 02/08/2011 07:55:35 AM 1985 Views
Allow me - 05/08/2011 02:14:15 PM 1841 Views
thanks *NM* - 07/08/2011 07:28:21 AM 1077 Views
I thought this was pretty clear - 07/08/2011 05:18:54 PM 1879 Views
Hizdahr a Harpy? Innocent or Not? - 26/07/2011 03:36:56 AM 2266 Views
Interesting idea. - 26/07/2011 12:25:11 PM 2070 Views
Re: Interesting idea. - 27/07/2011 04:25:02 PM 1998 Views
What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? - 26/07/2011 04:13:27 PM 1988 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? - 27/07/2011 12:49:52 AM 2198 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? - 27/07/2011 03:49:18 AM 2108 Views
Re: A Dance with Dragons discussion thread - 29/07/2011 01:42:57 AM 2182 Views
Okay. I suck. - 29/07/2011 01:50:56 AM 1922 Views
Let me rephrase that... - 29/07/2011 01:54:07 AM 1902 Views
Jon Snow is definitely Azor Ahai. - 29/07/2011 07:31:17 PM 2512 Views
Hmm - 31/07/2011 01:52:03 PM 2417 Views
you are correct - 31/07/2011 11:08:39 PM 1992 Views
Yup. - 31/07/2011 10:49:34 PM 1818 Views
But Shireen is a dragon... - 01/08/2011 12:22:16 AM 2006 Views
I'm uncertain about that - 01/08/2011 05:35:18 AM 1976 Views
True, but I wouldn't read too much into that. - 01/08/2011 11:42:29 PM 2248 Views
Where did he say that? - 02/08/2011 07:18:39 AM 2125 Views
In interviews - 02/08/2011 02:21:28 PM 2080 Views
A little thought about Jon... - 02/08/2011 08:02:34 AM 2138 Views
Excellent point. - 02/08/2011 02:22:22 PM 2062 Views
Am I the only one who thinks... - 09/08/2011 05:16:46 PM 2091 Views
I think Martin's gonna stick to Bran being the only one who does that - 10/08/2011 09:25:12 AM 2158 Views
Anyone have any thoughts as to the purpose of Arya's storyline? - 14/08/2011 06:28:09 PM 1995 Views
She's being trained as an assassin, so the question is who is she going to kill? - 16/08/2011 01:43:12 AM 1933 Views
Jon? - 18/08/2011 09:59:03 PM 1983 Views

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