Active Users:2081 Time:19/01/2025 09:10:38 PM
The letter sounded like the ravings of a psychopath loosing control DomA Send a noteboard - 27/07/2011 02:56:21 AM
Do you think Bolton really killed him?
Would be somewhat anti-climatic to have that happen off-screen, but of course rather typical of Martin's style. He saved a couple of characters through cliffhangers between the last book and this, so it's not very likely he'll do it again.
What happens to Melisandre then?
What's the point of Davos mission up North to find Rickon?
What does it mean for the realm? Tommen ruling unchallenged for now, with Bolton being his warden of the North?
Why now? Maybe Martin doesn't need another challenger for the throne, now that Aegon's arrived and that'll turn into a mess pretty soon.
Still, I somehow hope that Stannis is not dead. It's not a character you really love, but I always found it impossible to dislike him either and especially appreciated him coming to help the Wall.


The first suspicious thing about it is that it's from Ramsay and not Roose. Roose would never have let his son handle threats to the Night's Watch for its interference etc., which speaks for his present absence from Winterfell (his informers around Ramsay would know if he meant to send a raven to Jon Snow).

Another suspicious thing is that Ramsay is obviously unaware that Theon and Jeyne fled not to the Wall but to Stannis (which incidentally is probably why Ramsay didn't catch them.. his hunters were sent after them in the wrong direction). Ramsay omitted to reveal to Jon that the rescue was for nothing as his wife isn't the real Arya, so whatever effect the letter was expected to have on Jon, Ramsay intended to happen long before Theon and Jeyne reached the Wall. By and large, it seems to be a "you've failed in everything, I hate you and be sure you will pay" message, doubled with an attempt to frighten Jon into abandonning a "lost cause" and to appease the Boltons, sending Ramsay Stannis's kin and Melisandre. Most of all, the letter sounded like Ramsay is losing control.

Asha's POV showed that Stannis's camp isn't all that easy to find as it's buried in the snow. The party with Theon seems to have taken a long time to find it. It seems that Stannis is sending scouts ahead to blow horns much closer to Winterfell than he is (and probably in the wrong directions). It seems plausible Roose's sortie hasn't found Stannis' army yet. Three days riding from Winterfell (in good weather) makes a huge perimeter, especially in a storm and if the direction Roose thinks Stannis' army is is wrong.

It seems quite likely all hell broke loose at Winterfell in the botched rescue attempt, and obviously Ramsay has managed to capture some of Mance's party (including Mance himself? that remains to be seen) and torture the plot to rescue Jeyne, and othr details, out of them.

Another hint that Ramsay was raving and his letter isn't coolly calculated is that he seems to assume Theon would seek to go to Jon, or that Jon would actually not kill Theon on sight if he did. It would be a rational possibility if Jeyne was truly Arya Stark, but she is not. It's almost as if Ramsay has forgotten this, though.


If Stannis has really been defeated and killed, my guess is that we'll return to these events in the next book. For now, it's built terribly like the storyline that got Davos reported executed in AFFC.

Even by GRRM's standards, there seems to be too much set up behind this to resolve it this abruptly. Davos has gone to find Rickon. Manderly is infiltrated among Ramsay's people, and feeding Freys to Freys seems obviously just his first course (his revenge/plans sounded far more ambitious). Is Kastark really intending to betray Stannis, or did he manage to join Stannis's cause with Roose Bolton convinced he's on his side? Kastark was safely with Stannis three days from Winterfell for weeks, and seems in no hurry to send any messenger to tell Roose about this... Stannis could make the Kastarks the lords of Winterfell and the wardens of the north after the Starks, and the Kastark castellan a lord. With Theon's arrival to the camp, that should get clarified sooner than later.

The benefits of the "letter" seems obvious, however. It served its purpose at the Wall to bring about the plot to remove Jon, and reshuffled the deck. Selyse is isolated with her daughter - if they survive. If she thinks Stannis dead and Jon dead or dying, Melisandre will be forced to look with another perspective into her fires, as it seems she misread almost everything so far. She can almost certainly save Jon's life too with her magic (save or bring him back), if she wishes to. Tormund and fifty men are at Castle Black in the midst of the "coup", and there are thousands wildlings this side of the Wall now. Even if Jon survives (I'd be more worried about him if Martin had shown Ghost getting killed at his side, and made this all happen much further away from Melisandre's quarters), Martin just put a serious wrench in his plans and alliances.
Reply to message
A Dance with Dragons discussion thread - 11/07/2011 10:48:23 PM 6278 Views
Okay, first impressions. Basically spoiler-free, I suppose. - 11/07/2011 11:40:31 PM 1826 Views
I have it! *NM* - 12/07/2011 05:42:27 AM 982 Views
A general question to get the discussion started: will two more books be enough? - 12/07/2011 02:22:52 PM 2031 Views
A very good question *major spoilers, then* - 12/07/2011 02:55:05 PM 2010 Views
Oh, come on. If anyone can do it, Martin can. - 15/07/2011 03:48:27 AM 1703 Views
It'll be tight. - 12/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 2004 Views
No but I think 3 will be possible - 26/07/2011 03:15:02 AM 1825 Views
what is Purple Wedding? *NM* - 27/07/2011 08:37:04 AM 871 Views
Joffrey and Margaery wedding - 27/07/2011 04:26:04 PM 1856 Views
Hero of the book? - 12/07/2011 10:12:02 PM 2137 Views
Lord Manderly gets my vote. - 12/07/2011 10:41:19 PM 1953 Views
Re: Hero of the book? - 12/07/2011 10:43:20 PM 1819 Views
Re: Hero of the book? - 12/07/2011 11:50:29 PM 1815 Views
Ohh, so that was what that was about. - 17/07/2011 07:08:19 PM 1843 Views
That's what I thought too. - 25/07/2011 01:48:50 AM 1858 Views
Victorian Greyjoy = Hero of the book *NM* - 21/07/2011 06:20:25 AM 1030 Views
Asshole of the book? - 12/07/2011 10:46:10 PM 2024 Views
Agreed. - 12/07/2011 11:18:07 PM 1966 Views
Yeah, little doubt there. - 17/07/2011 07:09:53 PM 1809 Views
Seriously... - 18/07/2011 03:07:47 AM 1783 Views
Daenerys Targaryen & lifetime achievement award to Lord Rickard Stark - 17/08/2011 12:38:40 AM 1725 Views
Idiot of the book. - 12/07/2011 11:21:51 PM 2059 Views
lol yep, definitely *NM* - 13/07/2011 08:12:42 AM 972 Views
Re: Idiot of the book. - 17/07/2011 12:42:20 AM 1899 Views
Wait... no she doesn't! - 17/07/2011 01:29:52 AM 1830 Views
She thinks both - 18/07/2011 12:22:59 AM 1744 Views
So... - 17/07/2011 07:18:24 PM 1776 Views
No, it's him. - 18/07/2011 12:25:33 AM 1770 Views
Is there any hot sex scenes? I won't be able to read it for a while *NM* - 13/07/2011 02:35:49 PM 1065 Views
One or two, but not all that long ones *NM* - 13/07/2011 02:57:12 PM 1017 Views
Great Ending - 14/07/2011 01:21:53 AM 2068 Views
Really? - 14/07/2011 09:36:01 AM 1982 Views
Re: Really? - 14/07/2011 09:38:34 AM 1660 Views
Re: Great Ending - 18/07/2011 02:05:00 AM 1790 Views
YES! - 14/07/2011 02:38:48 AM 1631 Views
Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply - 16/07/2011 07:27:43 PM 1785 Views
Re: Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply - 17/07/2011 12:45:52 AM 1730 Views
I don't know what to think... (spoiler) - 14/07/2011 08:59:39 AM 1975 Views
Probably not. - 14/07/2011 09:19:03 AM 1973 Views
Re: Probably not. - 14/07/2011 03:57:55 PM 1808 Views
I think the two are mixed up. - 14/07/2011 11:23:06 PM 1883 Views
Re: I think the two are mixed up. - 18/07/2011 02:10:29 AM 1726 Views
What made least sense for me as far as that is concerned... - 14/07/2011 11:51:20 AM 1848 Views
They didn't. - 14/07/2011 11:24:53 PM 1899 Views
I see - 15/07/2011 08:28:09 AM 1810 Views
Didn't Jon just announced - 26/07/2011 02:51:07 AM 1778 Views
Something I totally missed first time through - 14/07/2011 09:40:33 AM 2168 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through - 16/07/2011 01:24:23 AM 2092 Views
Yep, that's what he said/thought - 17/07/2011 05:02:32 AM 1901 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through - 23/07/2011 04:14:38 PM 1742 Views
Well that brings new meaning - 26/07/2011 02:53:18 AM 1669 Views
I'm still not fully done, but about the Reek chapters... - 14/07/2011 04:05:29 PM 1896 Views
Agreed - 14/07/2011 06:18:15 PM 1916 Views
There's another... - 14/07/2011 07:16:11 PM 1717 Views
There's that... - 17/07/2011 01:12:33 AM 1765 Views
It's worse than that... - 17/07/2011 01:26:50 AM 1802 Views
Torture is wrong, and those chapters kinda proved it. *NM* - 26/07/2011 02:53:55 AM 963 Views
Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) - 16/07/2011 08:11:30 AM 1907 Views
Re: Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) - 17/07/2011 01:02:10 AM 1832 Views
You put words to my thoughts exactly. - 18/08/2011 09:17:09 PM 1749 Views
It should be re-titled A Jump with Sharks - 17/07/2011 06:00:37 PM 1950 Views
Publishers are more interested in the bottom line. - 18/07/2011 12:31:56 AM 1736 Views
Sadly, I am likely overestimating the intelligence of the readers. - 18/07/2011 03:05:12 AM 1956 Views
I felt bummed by Sanderson's new series. - 18/07/2011 05:25:09 AM 1805 Views
I bought that book but have yet to read it. - 18/07/2011 01:09:15 PM 1744 Views
Re: I bought that book but have yet to read it. - 20/07/2011 06:45:46 AM 1757 Views
You might like this quote from House of Leaves by Mark Z Danielewski. - 11/08/2011 03:42:05 PM 1828 Views
I'm afraid I have to agree with what seems to be the majority opinion... - 17/07/2011 07:35:47 PM 1893 Views
And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading? - 17/07/2011 07:39:15 PM 1791 Views
Yeah, I agree. - 18/07/2011 05:59:58 PM 1832 Views
The book really shows it is AFFC part 2 - 26/07/2011 03:00:07 AM 1810 Views
Am I The Only One In Love With Arya's Chapters? *spoilers maybe* - 18/07/2011 02:22:00 AM 1829 Views
I enjoyed them, very solid chapters. - 18/07/2011 12:50:43 PM 1850 Views
Unlike others, I won't start a separate thread to express my thoughts - 19/07/2011 11:21:17 AM 1965 Views
Yeah, I wished there was a way to move them in here! - 19/07/2011 01:42:51 PM 1707 Views
Me too... but going and complaining about them seems so lame, too. - 19/07/2011 07:34:47 PM 1715 Views
I agree with Jens, good balanced review. *NM* - 19/07/2011 07:50:13 PM 945 Views
I think you let him off too easily. - 20/07/2011 04:19:07 AM 1850 Views
Your review is a little too generous (in my opinion) - 20/07/2011 06:57:45 AM 2025 Views
I find myself both depressed and let down... - 20/07/2011 06:37:16 AM 2134 Views
Am I the only one who really likes... - 20/07/2011 06:04:00 PM 1910 Views
yeh, he is nice... *NM* - 20/07/2011 06:20:13 PM 939 Views
Davos is probably my favourite - 20/07/2011 09:51:03 PM 1634 Views
The six bodies fired by the trebuchet - 20/07/2011 10:36:16 PM 1818 Views
Yes, I was confused by that too. - 20/07/2011 10:53:35 PM 1734 Views
Probably pale mare victims. Seige warfare via plague - 20/07/2011 11:23:10 PM 1779 Views
Yes, I considered that as well... - 20/07/2011 11:48:32 PM 1754 Views
Have Quentyn's two mates already been sent off a this point? - 21/07/2011 02:03:15 PM 1800 Views
That could be it. *NM* - 21/07/2011 01:43:16 PM 857 Views
Stannis - 21/07/2011 08:43:40 AM 1768 Views
It's entirely possible Stannis was killed - 21/07/2011 02:09:10 PM 1850 Views
I highly doubt he's dead - 21/07/2011 07:29:59 PM 1801 Views
The bluff makes the most sense: if the Boltons beat Stannis, why does he ask for Theon & Jeyne? - 22/07/2011 12:01:30 AM 1865 Views
Yeah... - 22/07/2011 12:27:53 AM 1763 Views
The letter sounded like the ravings of a psychopath loosing control - 27/07/2011 02:56:21 AM 1909 Views
The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. - 21/07/2011 10:43:43 PM 1854 Views
Re: The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. - 22/07/2011 05:42:13 PM 1935 Views
Alternatively.. - 22/07/2011 09:13:46 PM 1766 Views
Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? - 22/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 1804 Views
None of them. - 22/07/2011 06:25:19 PM 1744 Views
Is that personal opinion or based on something Martin said? *NM* - 22/07/2011 06:37:57 PM 949 Views
Opinion - 22/07/2011 07:43:16 PM 1761 Views
I think there are some god's, just given different names. Same with the magic. - 22/07/2011 09:24:51 PM 1744 Views
Lose the apostrophe in the subject line. Then: on what basis do you assume this? - 23/07/2011 02:28:49 AM 1804 Views
You might want to stop wasting time correcting others typos. As for the gods... - 23/07/2011 04:53:59 AM 1663 Views
You might want to stop making them. Particularly glaring ones like that. - 23/07/2011 05:01:03 AM 1840 Views
A typo can't be "glaring"... - 23/07/2011 08:08:51 AM 1721 Views
Sure it can. Glaring: conspicuous or obvious. - 23/07/2011 03:52:57 PM 1731 Views
Morality stems from god? - 22/07/2011 10:47:59 PM 1731 Views
Of course it does - 23/07/2011 02:26:50 AM 1721 Views
On second thought, let's address the issue directly. - 23/07/2011 05:14:59 AM 1804 Views
Perhaps... - 24/07/2011 07:03:24 PM 1752 Views
Its simple... - 24/07/2011 07:37:11 PM 1731 Views
I disagree... - 25/07/2011 04:10:04 AM 1826 Views
Bullshit. - 25/07/2011 05:44:41 AM 1691 Views
Re: Bullshit. - 25/07/2011 06:27:09 AM 1600 Views
Some thoughts... - 25/07/2011 04:54:05 AM 1715 Views
It's not an objective morality. - 25/07/2011 05:41:33 AM 1711 Views
Its not that simple... - 25/07/2011 06:21:39 AM 1763 Views
I don't disagree with most of what you said. I just reach a different conclusion. - 25/07/2011 01:57:31 PM 1698 Views
Well... - 25/07/2011 05:02:45 PM 1709 Views
How then do you deal with the Euthyphro dilemma? - 16/08/2011 01:43:18 PM 1573 Views
Re: Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? - 25/07/2011 02:24:07 PM 1664 Views
Whats the best new POV - 26/07/2011 03:14:05 AM 1766 Views
Barristan - 26/07/2011 12:23:20 PM 1711 Views
Didn't Aeron "Damphair" Greyjoy also only have 2 POVs - 26/07/2011 03:56:57 PM 1795 Views
Agreed. *NM* - 26/07/2011 11:33:11 PM 983 Views
thirded. - 27/07/2011 04:16:26 PM 1586 Views
Absolutely *NM* - 29/07/2011 02:31:54 AM 1028 Views
Things you missed till they were pointed out via others or via a reread - 26/07/2011 03:23:53 AM 1914 Views
A bit. - 26/07/2011 12:32:32 PM 1870 Views
- 26/07/2011 03:46:54 PM 1816 Views
Re: - 27/07/2011 12:43:43 AM 1751 Views
Martin doesn't have to do anything - 27/07/2011 01:33:36 AM 1829 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything - 27/07/2011 04:38:19 AM 1717 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything - 27/07/2011 08:58:55 AM 1641 Views
Re: - 27/07/2011 04:27:18 AM 1828 Views
I like your theory. - 27/07/2011 04:35:22 PM 1836 Views
Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. - 26/07/2011 11:32:18 PM 1824 Views
Re: Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. - 27/07/2011 02:00:42 AM 1726 Views
Eh? - 29/07/2011 04:44:17 PM 1838 Views
This is complicated. - 31/07/2011 10:43:15 PM 2042 Views
Wait...a woman crowned for beauty was the victorious mystery knight? - 01/08/2011 03:00:49 AM 1744 Views
It is believed the Knight of the Laughing Tree is one of two people - 01/08/2011 04:47:21 AM 1780 Views
Yup. - 02/08/2011 12:03:26 AM 1684 Views
Also... - 02/08/2011 07:17:43 AM 1770 Views
And yet, my huge brain figures it out - 04/08/2011 04:20:06 PM 1748 Views
I've read this scene yesterday and I missed this... - 02/08/2011 07:55:35 AM 1769 Views
Allow me - 05/08/2011 02:14:15 PM 1623 Views
thanks *NM* - 07/08/2011 07:28:21 AM 933 Views
I thought this was pretty clear - 07/08/2011 05:18:54 PM 1643 Views
Hizdahr a Harpy? Innocent or Not? - 26/07/2011 03:36:56 AM 2050 Views
Interesting idea. - 26/07/2011 12:25:11 PM 1860 Views
Re: Interesting idea. - 27/07/2011 04:25:02 PM 1774 Views
What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? - 26/07/2011 04:13:27 PM 1770 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? - 27/07/2011 12:49:52 AM 1974 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? - 27/07/2011 03:49:18 AM 1876 Views
Re: A Dance with Dragons discussion thread - 29/07/2011 01:42:57 AM 1894 Views
Okay. I suck. - 29/07/2011 01:50:56 AM 1689 Views
Let me rephrase that... - 29/07/2011 01:54:07 AM 1667 Views
Jon Snow is definitely Azor Ahai. - 29/07/2011 07:31:17 PM 2275 Views
Hmm - 31/07/2011 01:52:03 PM 2042 Views
you are correct - 31/07/2011 11:08:39 PM 1746 Views
Yup. - 31/07/2011 10:49:34 PM 1592 Views
But Shireen is a dragon... - 01/08/2011 12:22:16 AM 1780 Views
I'm uncertain about that - 01/08/2011 05:35:18 AM 1750 Views
True, but I wouldn't read too much into that. - 01/08/2011 11:42:29 PM 2021 Views
Where did he say that? - 02/08/2011 07:18:39 AM 1876 Views
In interviews - 02/08/2011 02:21:28 PM 1855 Views
A little thought about Jon... - 02/08/2011 08:02:34 AM 1910 Views
Excellent point. - 02/08/2011 02:22:22 PM 1836 Views
Am I the only one who thinks... - 09/08/2011 05:16:46 PM 1857 Views
I think Martin's gonna stick to Bran being the only one who does that - 10/08/2011 09:25:12 AM 1774 Views
Anyone have any thoughts as to the purpose of Arya's storyline? - 14/08/2011 06:28:09 PM 1766 Views
She's being trained as an assassin, so the question is who is she going to kill? - 16/08/2011 01:43:12 AM 1694 Views
Jon? - 18/08/2011 09:59:03 PM 1734 Views

Reply to Message