The letter sounded like the ravings of a psychopath loosing control
DomA Send a noteboard - 27/07/2011 02:56:21 AM
Do you think Bolton really killed him?
Would be somewhat anti-climatic to have that happen off-screen, but of course rather typical of Martin's style. He saved a couple of characters through cliffhangers between the last book and this, so it's not very likely he'll do it again.
What happens to Melisandre then?
What's the point of Davos mission up North to find Rickon?
What does it mean for the realm? Tommen ruling unchallenged for now, with Bolton being his warden of the North?
Why now? Maybe Martin doesn't need another challenger for the throne, now that Aegon's arrived and that'll turn into a mess pretty soon.
Still, I somehow hope that Stannis is not dead. It's not a character you really love, but I always found it impossible to dislike him either and especially appreciated him coming to help the Wall.
Would be somewhat anti-climatic to have that happen off-screen, but of course rather typical of Martin's style. He saved a couple of characters through cliffhangers between the last book and this, so it's not very likely he'll do it again.
What happens to Melisandre then?
What's the point of Davos mission up North to find Rickon?
What does it mean for the realm? Tommen ruling unchallenged for now, with Bolton being his warden of the North?
Why now? Maybe Martin doesn't need another challenger for the throne, now that Aegon's arrived and that'll turn into a mess pretty soon.
Still, I somehow hope that Stannis is not dead. It's not a character you really love, but I always found it impossible to dislike him either and especially appreciated him coming to help the Wall.
The first suspicious thing about it is that it's from Ramsay and not Roose. Roose would never have let his son handle threats to the Night's Watch for its interference etc., which speaks for his present absence from Winterfell (his informers around Ramsay would know if he meant to send a raven to Jon Snow).
Another suspicious thing is that Ramsay is obviously unaware that Theon and Jeyne fled not to the Wall but to Stannis (which incidentally is probably why Ramsay didn't catch them.. his hunters were sent after them in the wrong direction). Ramsay omitted to reveal to Jon that the rescue was for nothing as his wife isn't the real Arya, so whatever effect the letter was expected to have on Jon, Ramsay intended to happen long before Theon and Jeyne reached the Wall. By and large, it seems to be a "you've failed in everything, I hate you and be sure you will pay" message, doubled with an attempt to frighten Jon into abandonning a "lost cause" and to appease the Boltons, sending Ramsay Stannis's kin and Melisandre. Most of all, the letter sounded like Ramsay is losing control.
Asha's POV showed that Stannis's camp isn't all that easy to find as it's buried in the snow. The party with Theon seems to have taken a long time to find it. It seems that Stannis is sending scouts ahead to blow horns much closer to Winterfell than he is (and probably in the wrong directions). It seems plausible Roose's sortie hasn't found Stannis' army yet. Three days riding from Winterfell (in good weather) makes a huge perimeter, especially in a storm and if the direction Roose thinks Stannis' army is is wrong.
It seems quite likely all hell broke loose at Winterfell in the botched rescue attempt, and obviously Ramsay has managed to capture some of Mance's party (including Mance himself? that remains to be seen) and torture the plot to rescue Jeyne, and othr details, out of them.
Another hint that Ramsay was raving and his letter isn't coolly calculated is that he seems to assume Theon would seek to go to Jon, or that Jon would actually not kill Theon on sight if he did. It would be a rational possibility if Jeyne was truly Arya Stark, but she is not. It's almost as if Ramsay has forgotten this, though.
If Stannis has really been defeated and killed, my guess is that we'll return to these events in the next book. For now, it's built terribly like the storyline that got Davos reported executed in AFFC.
Even by GRRM's standards, there seems to be too much set up behind this to resolve it this abruptly. Davos has gone to find Rickon. Manderly is infiltrated among Ramsay's people, and feeding Freys to Freys seems obviously just his first course (his revenge/plans sounded far more ambitious). Is Kastark really intending to betray Stannis, or did he manage to join Stannis's cause with Roose Bolton convinced he's on his side? Kastark was safely with Stannis three days from Winterfell for weeks, and seems in no hurry to send any messenger to tell Roose about this... Stannis could make the Kastarks the lords of Winterfell and the wardens of the north after the Starks, and the Kastark castellan a lord. With Theon's arrival to the camp, that should get clarified sooner than later.
The benefits of the "letter" seems obvious, however. It served its purpose at the Wall to bring about the plot to remove Jon, and reshuffled the deck. Selyse is isolated with her daughter - if they survive. If she thinks Stannis dead and Jon dead or dying, Melisandre will be forced to look with another perspective into her fires, as it seems she misread almost everything so far. She can almost certainly save Jon's life too with her magic (save or bring him back), if she wishes to. Tormund and fifty men are at Castle Black in the midst of the "coup", and there are thousands wildlings this side of the Wall now. Even if Jon survives (I'd be more worried about him if Martin had shown Ghost getting killed at his side, and made this all happen much further away from Melisandre's quarters), Martin just put a serious wrench in his plans and alliances.
A Dance with Dragons discussion thread
11/07/2011 10:48:23 PM
- 6236 Views
A general question to get the discussion started: will two more books be enough?
12/07/2011 02:22:52 PM
- 1989 Views
It'll be tight.
12/07/2011 04:32:39 PM
- 1967 Views
What does "resurrection-as-PWWP Jon" mean? Got it - Prince Who Was Promised!
18/08/2011 08:59:44 PM
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No but I think 3 will be possible
26/07/2011 03:15:02 AM
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Hero of the book?
12/07/2011 10:12:02 PM
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Barristan should be renamed as Ser Grandfather, you do not mess with Ser Grandfather *NM*
26/07/2011 03:32:09 AM
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Asshole of the book?
12/07/2011 10:46:10 PM
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Agreed.
12/07/2011 11:18:07 PM
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Seconded. He'd probably make my short list of Assholes of the Series to date. *NM*
12/07/2011 11:25:04 PM
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Daenerys Targaryen & lifetime achievement award to Lord Rickard Stark
17/08/2011 12:38:40 AM
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Idiot of the book.
12/07/2011 11:21:51 PM
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I think readers are being too hard on Quentyn, If anything I think Doran derserves more mocking.
17/07/2011 01:09:35 AM
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Is there any hot sex scenes? I won't be able to read it for a while *NM*
13/07/2011 02:35:49 PM
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YES!
14/07/2011 02:38:48 AM
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I don't know what to think... (spoiler)
14/07/2011 08:59:39 AM
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Probably not.
14/07/2011 09:19:03 AM
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Re: Probably not.
14/07/2011 03:57:55 PM
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What made least sense for me as far as that is concerned...
14/07/2011 11:51:20 AM
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Something I totally missed first time through
14/07/2011 09:40:33 AM
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I'm still not fully done, but about the Reek chapters...
14/07/2011 04:05:29 PM
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GRRM completely shit the bed on Jon's arc within this book. That's the truth.
16/07/2011 12:51:08 AM
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Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers)
16/07/2011 08:11:30 AM
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Personally, I felt 'A Feast for Crows' was not only better written but more condensed.
17/07/2011 11:15:58 AM
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Summed up like that there is no way to disagree with what you said
17/07/2011 11:33:01 AM
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It should be re-titled A Jump with Sharks
17/07/2011 06:00:37 PM
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Publishers are more interested in the bottom line.
18/07/2011 12:31:56 AM
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Sadly, I am likely overestimating the intelligence of the readers.
18/07/2011 03:05:12 AM
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I felt bummed by Sanderson's new series.
18/07/2011 05:25:09 AM
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You might like this quote from House of Leaves by Mark Z Danielewski.
11/08/2011 03:42:05 PM
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I'm afraid I have to agree with what seems to be the majority opinion...
17/07/2011 07:35:47 PM
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And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading?
17/07/2011 07:39:15 PM
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Re: And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading?
18/07/2011 02:17:41 AM
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The book really shows it is AFFC part 2
26/07/2011 03:00:07 AM
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No doubt, much like readers would've been more forgiving of aFfC if it'd been two years after SoS.
26/07/2011 11:28:43 PM
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Am I The Only One In Love With Arya's Chapters? *spoilers maybe*
18/07/2011 02:22:00 AM
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Unlike others, I won't start a separate thread to express my thoughts
19/07/2011 11:21:17 AM
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Yeah, I wished there was a way to move them in here!
19/07/2011 01:42:51 PM
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Me too... but going and complaining about them seems so lame, too.
19/07/2011 07:34:47 PM
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I think you let him off too easily.
20/07/2011 04:19:07 AM
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It might be that I expected even more of a longeur than what happened
20/07/2011 05:24:50 PM
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Am I the only one who really likes...
20/07/2011 06:04:00 PM
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I have to disagree in regards to Penny, she's a plot device and an annoying one at that.
21/07/2011 01:15:33 AM
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Re: I have to disagree in regards to Penny, she's a plot device and an annoying one at that.
21/07/2011 09:33:00 AM
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The six bodies fired by the trebuchet
20/07/2011 10:36:16 PM
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Yes, I was confused by that too.
20/07/2011 10:53:35 PM
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Probably pale mare victims. Seige warfare via plague
20/07/2011 11:23:10 PM
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It's not six bodies, it's six trebuchets throwing corpses instead of stones
27/07/2011 01:03:51 AM
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Stannis
21/07/2011 08:43:40 AM
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I highly doubt he's dead
21/07/2011 07:29:59 PM
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The bluff makes the most sense: if the Boltons beat Stannis, why does he ask for Theon & Jeyne?
22/07/2011 12:01:30 AM
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The letter sounded like the ravings of a psychopath loosing control
27/07/2011 02:56:21 AM
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The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up.
21/07/2011 10:43:43 PM
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Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world?
22/07/2011 04:32:39 PM
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None of them.
22/07/2011 06:25:19 PM
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Is that personal opinion or based on something Martin said? *NM*
22/07/2011 06:37:57 PM
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Opinion
22/07/2011 07:43:16 PM
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Regardless of whether or not they actually get involved, their existence (or not) is signficant.
23/07/2011 02:17:48 AM
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I think there are some god's, just given different names. Same with the magic.
22/07/2011 09:24:51 PM
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Lose the apostrophe in the subject line. Then: on what basis do you assume this?
23/07/2011 02:28:49 AM
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You might want to stop wasting time correcting others typos. As for the gods...
23/07/2011 04:53:59 AM
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You might want to stop making them. Particularly glaring ones like that.
23/07/2011 05:01:03 AM
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Morality stems from god?
22/07/2011 10:47:59 PM
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On second thought, let's address the issue directly.
23/07/2011 05:14:59 AM
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Perhaps...
24/07/2011 07:03:24 PM
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Its simple...
24/07/2011 07:37:11 PM
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I disagree...
25/07/2011 04:10:04 AM
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Bullshit.
25/07/2011 05:44:41 AM
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The Seven probably has more power and influence than any other religion though.
25/07/2011 07:51:59 PM
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In Westeros, but I always got the feeling the Free Cities and other places didn't much care for them
26/07/2011 10:53:45 PM
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Westeros is the biggest coherent civilisation in the ASoIaF world.
27/07/2011 12:56:21 AM
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Some thoughts...
25/07/2011 04:54:05 AM
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It's not an objective morality.
25/07/2011 05:41:33 AM
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Its not that simple...
25/07/2011 06:21:39 AM
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I don't disagree with most of what you said. I just reach a different conclusion.
25/07/2011 01:57:31 PM
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Whats the best new POV
26/07/2011 03:14:05 AM
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Things you missed till they were pointed out via others or via a reread
26/07/2011 03:23:53 AM
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A bit.
26/07/2011 12:32:32 PM
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26/07/2011 03:46:54 PM
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Re:
27/07/2011 12:43:43 AM
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Martin doesn't have to do anything
27/07/2011 01:33:36 AM
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Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything
27/07/2011 04:38:19 AM
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The crone who prophesied the stallion who mounts the world saw the stallions face
27/07/2011 05:13:28 AM
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Eh?
29/07/2011 04:44:17 PM
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This is complicated.
31/07/2011 10:43:15 PM
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Wait...a woman crowned for beauty was the victorious mystery knight?
01/08/2011 03:00:49 AM
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It is believed the Knight of the Laughing Tree is one of two people
01/08/2011 04:47:21 AM
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Hizdahr a Harpy? Innocent or Not?
26/07/2011 03:36:56 AM
- 2007 Views
What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads?
26/07/2011 04:13:27 PM
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Re: A Dance with Dragons discussion thread
29/07/2011 01:42:57 AM
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Jon Snow is definitely Azor Ahai.
29/07/2011 07:31:17 PM
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Yup.
31/07/2011 10:49:34 PM
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I'm uncertain about that
01/08/2011 05:35:18 AM
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True, but I wouldn't read too much into that.
01/08/2011 11:42:29 PM
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Am I the only one who thinks...
09/08/2011 05:16:46 PM
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I think Martin's gonna stick to Bran being the only one who does that
10/08/2011 09:25:12 AM
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It's possible, the problem is Jon's warging skill isn't all that well developed.
10/08/2011 10:53:32 PM
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Anyone have any thoughts as to the purpose of Arya's storyline?
14/08/2011 06:28:09 PM
- 1720 Views
She's being trained as an assassin, so the question is who is she going to kill?
16/08/2011 01:43:12 AM
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