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Re: Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? aragornital Send a noteboard - 25/07/2011 02:24:07 PM
I'm frequently amused by Cannoli's posts, moralizing about genre fiction, because not only are the books fictitious tales (often written without much care), but they're also set in fictitious worlds where his concepts of morality and ethics may not hold water.

Specifically, if there truly IS a "God of Many Faces" in Martin's world, then Arya's training is not only moral, but highly so. She has taken, in fact, the most moral path of all by serving a god selflessly to implement the will of that god on earth.

The interesting thing is that it seems that the gods of Westeros are the ones that don't exist. No one has ever benefited from worshiping the "Seven" or even the Drowned God. By contrast, the "Old Gods" of the North seem to have actual power, as does R'hllor, the Red God.

Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world, and how does that affect the morality that underpins it?


Sometimes I think all of them are... Sometimes none...
But if the gods are real, the Seven seems are the least real.
There is only one moment I thought may be they were, when they helped Davos.
Chii? Chiiii!
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A Dance with Dragons discussion thread Legolas - 11/07/2011 10:48:23 PM 6258 Views
Okay, first impressions. Basically spoiler-free, I suppose. ironclad - 11/07/2011 11:40:31 PM 1805 Views
I have it! *NM* fionwe1987 - 12/07/2011 05:42:27 AM 975 Views
A general question to get the discussion started: will two more books be enough? RandAllThor - 12/07/2011 02:22:52 PM 2010 Views
A very good question *major spoilers, then* ironclad - 12/07/2011 02:55:05 PM 1988 Views
Oh, come on. If anyone can do it, Martin can. Tom - 15/07/2011 03:48:27 AM 1678 Views
It'll be tight. Werthead - 12/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 1982 Views
What does "resurrection-as-PWWP Jon" mean? Got it - Prince Who Was Promised! Sir Tybalt - 18/08/2011 08:59:44 PM 1878 Views
No but I think 3 will be possible Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:15:02 AM 1807 Views
what is Purple Wedding? *NM* aragornital - 27/07/2011 08:37:04 AM 864 Views
Joffrey and Margaery wedding Roland00 - 27/07/2011 04:26:04 PM 1839 Views
Hero of the book? Werthead - 12/07/2011 10:12:02 PM 2116 Views
Lord Manderly gets my vote. RandAllThor - 12/07/2011 10:41:19 PM 1928 Views
Re: Hero of the book? ironclad - 12/07/2011 10:43:20 PM 1803 Views
Re: Hero of the book? ClubCaved - 12/07/2011 11:50:29 PM 1800 Views
Ohh, so that was what that was about. Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:08:19 PM 1821 Views
That's what I thought too. Jessie - 25/07/2011 01:48:50 AM 1841 Views
Victorian Greyjoy = Hero of the book *NM* Urza - 21/07/2011 06:20:25 AM 1019 Views
Barristan should be renamed as Ser Grandfather, you do not mess with Ser Grandfather *NM* Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:32:09 AM 1021 Views
Asshole of the book? ironclad - 12/07/2011 10:46:10 PM 1997 Views
Agreed. Werthead - 12/07/2011 11:18:07 PM 1945 Views
Seconded. He'd probably make my short list of Assholes of the Series to date. *NM* RandAllThor - 12/07/2011 11:25:04 PM 916 Views
Yeah, little doubt there. Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:09:53 PM 1790 Views
Seriously... Urza - 18/07/2011 03:07:47 AM 1760 Views
Daenerys Targaryen & lifetime achievement award to Lord Rickard Stark Cannoli - 17/08/2011 12:38:40 AM 1702 Views
Idiot of the book. Werthead - 12/07/2011 11:21:51 PM 2043 Views
lol yep, definitely *NM* ironclad - 13/07/2011 08:12:42 AM 963 Views
Re: Idiot of the book. Zaphod - 17/07/2011 12:42:20 AM 1881 Views
I think readers are being too hard on Quentyn, If anything I think Doran derserves more mocking. Libby - 17/07/2011 01:09:35 AM 2211 Views
Wait... no she doesn't! fionwe1987 - 17/07/2011 01:29:52 AM 1807 Views
She thinks both Werthead - 18/07/2011 12:22:59 AM 1723 Views
So... Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:18:24 PM 1759 Views
No, it's him. Werthead - 18/07/2011 12:25:33 AM 1748 Views
Is there any hot sex scenes? I won't be able to read it for a while *NM* Dark Knight - 13/07/2011 02:35:49 PM 1056 Views
One or two, but not all that long ones *NM* ironclad - 13/07/2011 02:57:12 PM 1011 Views
Great Ending ClubCaved - 14/07/2011 01:21:53 AM 2045 Views
Really? ironclad - 14/07/2011 09:36:01 AM 1964 Views
Re: Really? Werthead - 14/07/2011 09:38:34 AM 1650 Views
Re: Great Ending samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:05:00 AM 1770 Views
YES! Larry - 14/07/2011 02:38:48 AM 1617 Views
Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply Stephen - 16/07/2011 07:27:43 PM 1763 Views
Re: Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply Zaphod - 17/07/2011 12:45:52 AM 1713 Views
I don't know what to think... (spoiler) aragornital - 14/07/2011 08:59:39 AM 1956 Views
Probably not. Werthead - 14/07/2011 09:19:03 AM 1955 Views
Re: Probably not. aragornital - 14/07/2011 03:57:55 PM 1784 Views
I think the two are mixed up. Werthead - 14/07/2011 11:23:06 PM 1860 Views
Re: I think the two are mixed up. samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:10:29 AM 1701 Views
What made least sense for me as far as that is concerned... ironclad - 14/07/2011 11:51:20 AM 1830 Views
They didn't. Werthead - 14/07/2011 11:24:53 PM 1877 Views
I see ironclad - 15/07/2011 08:28:09 AM 1789 Views
Didn't Jon just announced Roland00 - 26/07/2011 02:51:07 AM 1758 Views
Something I totally missed first time through Werthead - 14/07/2011 09:40:33 AM 2143 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through Cannoli - 16/07/2011 01:24:23 AM 2072 Views
Yep, that's what he said/thought A Deathwatch Guard - 17/07/2011 05:02:32 AM 1880 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through Jessie - 23/07/2011 04:14:38 PM 1725 Views
Well that brings new meaning Roland00 - 26/07/2011 02:53:18 AM 1648 Views
I'm still not fully done, but about the Reek chapters... fionwe1987 - 14/07/2011 04:05:29 PM 1880 Views
Agreed ironclad - 14/07/2011 06:18:15 PM 1896 Views
There's another... fionwe1987 - 14/07/2011 07:16:11 PM 1699 Views
There's that... Legolas - 17/07/2011 01:12:33 AM 1748 Views
It's worse than that... fionwe1987 - 17/07/2011 01:26:50 AM 1786 Views
Torture is wrong, and those chapters kinda proved it. *NM* Roland00 - 26/07/2011 02:53:55 AM 955 Views
GRRM completely shit the bed on Jon's arc within this book. That's the truth. Libby - 16/07/2011 12:51:08 AM 1919 Views
Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) Variant - 16/07/2011 08:11:30 AM 1887 Views
Re: Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) Zaphod - 17/07/2011 01:02:10 AM 1818 Views
Personally, I felt 'A Feast for Crows' was not only better written but more condensed. Libby - 17/07/2011 11:15:58 AM 1866 Views
Summed up like that there is no way to disagree with what you said ironclad - 17/07/2011 11:33:01 AM 1851 Views
You put words to my thoughts exactly. Sir Tybalt - 18/08/2011 09:17:09 PM 1735 Views
It should be re-titled A Jump with Sharks Tom - 17/07/2011 06:00:37 PM 1928 Views
Publishers are more interested in the bottom line. Werthead - 18/07/2011 12:31:56 AM 1714 Views
Sadly, I am likely overestimating the intelligence of the readers. Tom - 18/07/2011 03:05:12 AM 1931 Views
I felt bummed by Sanderson's new series. everynametaken - 18/07/2011 05:25:09 AM 1784 Views
I bought that book but have yet to read it. Tom - 18/07/2011 01:09:15 PM 1713 Views
Re: I bought that book but have yet to read it. Zach - 20/07/2011 06:45:46 AM 1739 Views
You might like this quote from House of Leaves by Mark Z Danielewski. heartbreak - 11/08/2011 03:42:05 PM 1809 Views
I'm afraid I have to agree with what seems to be the majority opinion... Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:35:47 PM 1871 Views
And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading? Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:39:15 PM 1771 Views
Re: And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading? samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:17:41 AM 1905 Views
Yeah, I agree. Stephen - 18/07/2011 05:59:58 PM 1811 Views
The book really shows it is AFFC part 2 Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:00:07 AM 1786 Views
No doubt, much like readers would've been more forgiving of aFfC if it'd been two years after SoS. Legolas - 26/07/2011 11:28:43 PM 1821 Views
Am I The Only One In Love With Arya's Chapters? *spoilers maybe* samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:22:00 AM 1807 Views
I enjoyed them, very solid chapters. Libby - 18/07/2011 12:50:43 PM 1827 Views
Unlike others, I won't start a separate thread to express my thoughts Larry - 19/07/2011 11:21:17 AM 1948 Views
Yeah, I wished there was a way to move them in here! ironclad - 19/07/2011 01:42:51 PM 1690 Views
Me too... but going and complaining about them seems so lame, too. Legolas - 19/07/2011 07:34:47 PM 1698 Views
I agree with Jens, good balanced review. *NM* Legolas - 19/07/2011 07:50:13 PM 940 Views
I think you let him off too easily. Tom - 20/07/2011 04:19:07 AM 1836 Views
It might be that I expected even more of a longeur than what happened Larry - 20/07/2011 05:24:50 PM 1784 Views
Your review is a little too generous (in my opinion) Libby - 20/07/2011 06:57:45 AM 2000 Views
I find myself both depressed and let down... Zach - 20/07/2011 06:37:16 AM 2112 Views
Am I the only one who really likes... ironclad - 20/07/2011 06:04:00 PM 1893 Views
yeh, he is nice... *NM* aragornital - 20/07/2011 06:20:13 PM 931 Views
Davos is probably my favourite Stephen - 20/07/2011 09:51:03 PM 1621 Views
I have to disagree in regards to Penny, she's a plot device and an annoying one at that. Variant - 21/07/2011 01:15:33 AM 1936 Views
Re: I have to disagree in regards to Penny, she's a plot device and an annoying one at that. Timthetrolloc - 21/07/2011 09:33:00 AM 1751 Views
The six bodies fired by the trebuchet Stephen - 20/07/2011 10:36:16 PM 1801 Views
Yes, I was confused by that too. Legolas - 20/07/2011 10:53:35 PM 1710 Views
Probably pale mare victims. Seige warfare via plague Urza - 20/07/2011 11:23:10 PM 1764 Views
Yes, I considered that as well... Legolas - 20/07/2011 11:48:32 PM 1739 Views
Have Quentyn's two mates already been sent off a this point? ironclad - 21/07/2011 02:03:15 PM 1778 Views
That could be it. *NM* Stephen - 21/07/2011 01:43:16 PM 847 Views
It's not six bodies, it's six trebuchets throwing corpses instead of stones DomA - 27/07/2011 01:03:51 AM 1847 Views
That's how I read it as well. Six trebuchets opening up. *NM* Michael - 11/08/2011 12:19:09 PM 929 Views
Stannis ironclad - 21/07/2011 08:43:40 AM 1747 Views
It's entirely possible Stannis was killed Tom - 21/07/2011 02:09:10 PM 1835 Views
I highly doubt he's dead A Deathwatch Guard - 21/07/2011 07:29:59 PM 1783 Views
The bluff makes the most sense: if the Boltons beat Stannis, why does he ask for Theon & Jeyne? Cannoli - 22/07/2011 12:01:30 AM 1842 Views
Yeah... Urza - 22/07/2011 12:27:53 AM 1740 Views
The letter sounded like the ravings of a psychopath loosing control DomA - 27/07/2011 02:56:21 AM 1892 Views
The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. Libby - 21/07/2011 10:43:43 PM 1846 Views
Re: The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. Werthead - 22/07/2011 05:42:13 PM 1919 Views
Alternatively.. fionwe1987 - 22/07/2011 09:13:46 PM 1744 Views
Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? Tom - 22/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 1783 Views
None of them. Werthead - 22/07/2011 06:25:19 PM 1728 Views
Is that personal opinion or based on something Martin said? *NM* Tom - 22/07/2011 06:37:57 PM 939 Views
Opinion Werthead - 22/07/2011 07:43:16 PM 1743 Views
Regardless of whether or not they actually get involved, their existence (or not) is signficant. Tom - 23/07/2011 02:17:48 AM 1606 Views
I think there are some god's, just given different names. Same with the magic. fionwe1987 - 22/07/2011 09:24:51 PM 1722 Views
Lose the apostrophe in the subject line. Then: on what basis do you assume this? Tom - 23/07/2011 02:28:49 AM 1793 Views
You might want to stop wasting time correcting others typos. As for the gods... fionwe1987 - 23/07/2011 04:53:59 AM 1646 Views
You might want to stop making them. Particularly glaring ones like that. Tom - 23/07/2011 05:01:03 AM 1826 Views
A typo can't be "glaring"... fionwe1987 - 23/07/2011 08:08:51 AM 1705 Views
Sure it can. Glaring: conspicuous or obvious. Tom - 23/07/2011 03:52:57 PM 1720 Views
Morality stems from god? A Deathwatch Guard - 22/07/2011 10:47:59 PM 1710 Views
Of course it does Tom - 23/07/2011 02:26:50 AM 1702 Views
On second thought, let's address the issue directly. Tom - 23/07/2011 05:14:59 AM 1785 Views
Perhaps... A Deathwatch Guard - 24/07/2011 07:03:24 PM 1730 Views
Its simple... Urza - 24/07/2011 07:37:11 PM 1718 Views
I disagree... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 04:10:04 AM 1801 Views
Bullshit. Tom - 25/07/2011 05:44:41 AM 1670 Views
Re: Bullshit. fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 06:27:09 AM 1582 Views
The Seven probably has more power and influence than any other religion though. Werthead - 25/07/2011 07:51:59 PM 1624 Views
In Westeros, but I always got the feeling the Free Cities and other places didn't much care for them A Deathwatch Guard - 26/07/2011 10:53:45 PM 1736 Views
Westeros is the biggest coherent civilisation in the ASoIaF world. Werthead - 27/07/2011 12:56:21 AM 1774 Views
Some thoughts... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 04:54:05 AM 1693 Views
It's not an objective morality. Tom - 25/07/2011 05:41:33 AM 1693 Views
Its not that simple... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 06:21:39 AM 1746 Views
I don't disagree with most of what you said. I just reach a different conclusion. Tom - 25/07/2011 01:57:31 PM 1683 Views
Well... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 05:02:45 PM 1691 Views
How then do you deal with the Euthyphro dilemma? Tim - 16/08/2011 01:43:18 PM 1557 Views
Re: Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? aragornital - 25/07/2011 02:24:07 PM 1652 Views
Whats the best new POV Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:14:05 AM 1743 Views
Barristan Werthead - 26/07/2011 12:23:20 PM 1699 Views
Didn't Aeron "Damphair" Greyjoy also only have 2 POVs Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:56:57 PM 1775 Views
Agreed. *NM* Legolas - 26/07/2011 11:33:11 PM 971 Views
thirded. Jessie - 27/07/2011 04:16:26 PM 1567 Views
Absolutely *NM* ironclad - 29/07/2011 02:31:54 AM 1019 Views
Things you missed till they were pointed out via others or via a reread Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:23:53 AM 1894 Views
A bit. Werthead - 26/07/2011 12:32:32 PM 1858 Views
Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:46:54 PM 1791 Views
Re: Werthead - 27/07/2011 12:43:43 AM 1726 Views
Martin doesn't have to do anything Roland00 - 27/07/2011 01:33:36 AM 1805 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything DomA - 27/07/2011 04:38:19 AM 1703 Views
The crone who prophesied the stallion who mounts the world saw the stallions face Roland00 - 27/07/2011 05:13:28 AM 1823 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything aragornital - 27/07/2011 08:58:55 AM 1627 Views
Re: DomA - 27/07/2011 04:27:18 AM 1811 Views
I like your theory. Jessie - 27/07/2011 04:35:22 PM 1817 Views
Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. Legolas - 26/07/2011 11:32:18 PM 1805 Views
Re: Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. Roland00 - 27/07/2011 02:00:42 AM 1711 Views
Eh? Elaine - 29/07/2011 04:44:17 PM 1818 Views
This is complicated. Werthead - 31/07/2011 10:43:15 PM 2027 Views
Wait...a woman crowned for beauty was the victorious mystery knight? Tom - 01/08/2011 03:00:49 AM 1721 Views
It is believed the Knight of the Laughing Tree is one of two people Roland00 - 01/08/2011 04:47:21 AM 1761 Views
Yup. Werthead - 02/08/2011 12:03:26 AM 1666 Views
Also... fionwe1987 - 02/08/2011 07:17:43 AM 1755 Views
And yet, my huge brain figures it out Elaine - 04/08/2011 04:20:06 PM 1723 Views
I've read this scene yesterday and I missed this... aragornital - 02/08/2011 07:55:35 AM 1753 Views
Allow me Elaine - 05/08/2011 02:14:15 PM 1610 Views
thanks *NM* aragornital - 07/08/2011 07:28:21 AM 920 Views
I thought this was pretty clear HousealThor - 07/08/2011 05:18:54 PM 1626 Views
Hizdahr a Harpy? Innocent or Not? Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:36:56 AM 2030 Views
Interesting idea. Werthead - 26/07/2011 12:25:11 PM 1837 Views
Re: Interesting idea. Jessie - 27/07/2011 04:25:02 PM 1754 Views
What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? Roland00 - 26/07/2011 04:13:27 PM 1748 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? Werthead - 27/07/2011 12:49:52 AM 1958 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? DomA - 27/07/2011 03:49:18 AM 1864 Views
Re: A Dance with Dragons discussion thread jwk - 29/07/2011 01:42:57 AM 1870 Views
Okay. I suck. jwk - 29/07/2011 01:50:56 AM 1666 Views
Let me rephrase that... jwk - 29/07/2011 01:54:07 AM 1647 Views
Jon Snow is definitely Azor Ahai. Kotagg - 29/07/2011 07:31:17 PM 2259 Views
Hmm ironclad - 31/07/2011 01:52:03 PM 2025 Views
you are correct Jim - 31/07/2011 11:08:39 PM 1726 Views
Yup. Werthead - 31/07/2011 10:49:34 PM 1582 Views
But Shireen is a dragon... fionwe1987 - 01/08/2011 12:22:16 AM 1764 Views
I'm uncertain about that Larry - 01/08/2011 05:35:18 AM 1731 Views
True, but I wouldn't read too much into that. Werthead - 01/08/2011 11:42:29 PM 2009 Views
Where did he say that? fionwe1987 - 02/08/2011 07:18:39 AM 1856 Views
In interviews Werthead - 02/08/2011 02:21:28 PM 1837 Views
A little thought about Jon... aragornital - 02/08/2011 08:02:34 AM 1890 Views
Excellent point. Werthead - 02/08/2011 02:22:22 PM 1814 Views
Am I the only one who thinks... The Doctor - 09/08/2011 05:16:46 PM 1840 Views
I think Martin's gonna stick to Bran being the only one who does that ironclad - 10/08/2011 09:25:12 AM 1756 Views
It's possible, the problem is Jon's warging skill isn't all that well developed. Libby - 10/08/2011 10:53:32 PM 1733 Views
Anyone have any thoughts as to the purpose of Arya's storyline? Chas - 14/08/2011 06:28:09 PM 1740 Views
She's being trained as an assassin, so the question is who is she going to kill? Werthead - 16/08/2011 01:43:12 AM 1674 Views
Jon? Sir Tybalt - 18/08/2011 09:59:03 PM 1714 Views
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