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Re: Bullshit. fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 25/07/2011 06:27:09 AM
You are assuming (1) that there is no way to know metaphysical laws (which is inherently limiting humanity for all eternity)

I assume no such thing. But knowing those laws at a later date doesn't change anything about morality today.

and (2) that Martin can't tell us what metaphysical laws apply in his universe (and we know that he can, at least as long as he draws breath in that overweight frame of his).

So what if he does? Unless he can show that his characters performed their actions while definitely knowing those metaphysical laws, his revealing these laws is meaningless to this debate.

It's clear that Martin can tell us who is real. Also, there is some magic underlying the Lord of Many Faces and R'llhor that we have NEVER seen with respect to the Seven. In fact, of ALL the religious systems, the Seven seems to be the most impotent.

For now. The followers of the Seven are disadvantaged by the fact that they are under the strongest influence of the Citadel, which seem to be working to suppress magical abilities.

Also remember that till aDwD, we had no idea there was any real magic behind the Faceless Men. And we've only just seen that there's nothing divine or godly about the Old Gods.
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A Dance with Dragons discussion thread Legolas - 11/07/2011 10:48:23 PM 6253 Views
Okay, first impressions. Basically spoiler-free, I suppose. ironclad - 11/07/2011 11:40:31 PM 1793 Views
I have it! *NM* fionwe1987 - 12/07/2011 05:42:27 AM 973 Views
A general question to get the discussion started: will two more books be enough? RandAllThor - 12/07/2011 02:22:52 PM 2002 Views
A very good question *major spoilers, then* ironclad - 12/07/2011 02:55:05 PM 1982 Views
Oh, come on. If anyone can do it, Martin can. Tom - 15/07/2011 03:48:27 AM 1670 Views
It'll be tight. Werthead - 12/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 1975 Views
What does "resurrection-as-PWWP Jon" mean? Got it - Prince Who Was Promised! Sir Tybalt - 18/08/2011 08:59:44 PM 1871 Views
No but I think 3 will be possible Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:15:02 AM 1802 Views
what is Purple Wedding? *NM* aragornital - 27/07/2011 08:37:04 AM 861 Views
Joffrey and Margaery wedding Roland00 - 27/07/2011 04:26:04 PM 1832 Views
Hero of the book? Werthead - 12/07/2011 10:12:02 PM 2110 Views
Lord Manderly gets my vote. RandAllThor - 12/07/2011 10:41:19 PM 1921 Views
Re: Hero of the book? ironclad - 12/07/2011 10:43:20 PM 1798 Views
Re: Hero of the book? ClubCaved - 12/07/2011 11:50:29 PM 1794 Views
Ohh, so that was what that was about. Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:08:19 PM 1815 Views
That's what I thought too. Jessie - 25/07/2011 01:48:50 AM 1836 Views
Victorian Greyjoy = Hero of the book *NM* Urza - 21/07/2011 06:20:25 AM 1016 Views
Barristan should be renamed as Ser Grandfather, you do not mess with Ser Grandfather *NM* Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:32:09 AM 1018 Views
Asshole of the book? ironclad - 12/07/2011 10:46:10 PM 1993 Views
Agreed. Werthead - 12/07/2011 11:18:07 PM 1937 Views
Seconded. He'd probably make my short list of Assholes of the Series to date. *NM* RandAllThor - 12/07/2011 11:25:04 PM 913 Views
Yeah, little doubt there. Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:09:53 PM 1783 Views
Seriously... Urza - 18/07/2011 03:07:47 AM 1753 Views
Daenerys Targaryen & lifetime achievement award to Lord Rickard Stark Cannoli - 17/08/2011 12:38:40 AM 1696 Views
Idiot of the book. Werthead - 12/07/2011 11:21:51 PM 2037 Views
lol yep, definitely *NM* ironclad - 13/07/2011 08:12:42 AM 960 Views
Re: Idiot of the book. Zaphod - 17/07/2011 12:42:20 AM 1873 Views
I think readers are being too hard on Quentyn, If anything I think Doran derserves more mocking. Libby - 17/07/2011 01:09:35 AM 2204 Views
Wait... no she doesn't! fionwe1987 - 17/07/2011 01:29:52 AM 1799 Views
She thinks both Werthead - 18/07/2011 12:22:59 AM 1717 Views
So... Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:18:24 PM 1753 Views
No, it's him. Werthead - 18/07/2011 12:25:33 AM 1743 Views
Is there any hot sex scenes? I won't be able to read it for a while *NM* Dark Knight - 13/07/2011 02:35:49 PM 1053 Views
One or two, but not all that long ones *NM* ironclad - 13/07/2011 02:57:12 PM 1010 Views
Great Ending ClubCaved - 14/07/2011 01:21:53 AM 2038 Views
Really? ironclad - 14/07/2011 09:36:01 AM 1956 Views
Re: Really? Werthead - 14/07/2011 09:38:34 AM 1643 Views
Re: Great Ending samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:05:00 AM 1765 Views
YES! Larry - 14/07/2011 02:38:48 AM 1609 Views
Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply Stephen - 16/07/2011 07:27:43 PM 1757 Views
Re: Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply Zaphod - 17/07/2011 12:45:52 AM 1706 Views
I don't know what to think... (spoiler) aragornital - 14/07/2011 08:59:39 AM 1949 Views
Probably not. Werthead - 14/07/2011 09:19:03 AM 1948 Views
Re: Probably not. aragornital - 14/07/2011 03:57:55 PM 1776 Views
I think the two are mixed up. Werthead - 14/07/2011 11:23:06 PM 1853 Views
Re: I think the two are mixed up. samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:10:29 AM 1695 Views
What made least sense for me as far as that is concerned... ironclad - 14/07/2011 11:51:20 AM 1823 Views
They didn't. Werthead - 14/07/2011 11:24:53 PM 1869 Views
I see ironclad - 15/07/2011 08:28:09 AM 1782 Views
Didn't Jon just announced Roland00 - 26/07/2011 02:51:07 AM 1751 Views
Something I totally missed first time through Werthead - 14/07/2011 09:40:33 AM 2136 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through Cannoli - 16/07/2011 01:24:23 AM 2064 Views
Yep, that's what he said/thought A Deathwatch Guard - 17/07/2011 05:02:32 AM 1872 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through Jessie - 23/07/2011 04:14:38 PM 1719 Views
Well that brings new meaning Roland00 - 26/07/2011 02:53:18 AM 1641 Views
I'm still not fully done, but about the Reek chapters... fionwe1987 - 14/07/2011 04:05:29 PM 1875 Views
Agreed ironclad - 14/07/2011 06:18:15 PM 1891 Views
There's another... fionwe1987 - 14/07/2011 07:16:11 PM 1691 Views
There's that... Legolas - 17/07/2011 01:12:33 AM 1739 Views
It's worse than that... fionwe1987 - 17/07/2011 01:26:50 AM 1779 Views
Torture is wrong, and those chapters kinda proved it. *NM* Roland00 - 26/07/2011 02:53:55 AM 952 Views
GRRM completely shit the bed on Jon's arc within this book. That's the truth. Libby - 16/07/2011 12:51:08 AM 1912 Views
Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) Variant - 16/07/2011 08:11:30 AM 1878 Views
Re: Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) Zaphod - 17/07/2011 01:02:10 AM 1810 Views
Personally, I felt 'A Feast for Crows' was not only better written but more condensed. Libby - 17/07/2011 11:15:58 AM 1857 Views
Summed up like that there is no way to disagree with what you said ironclad - 17/07/2011 11:33:01 AM 1844 Views
You put words to my thoughts exactly. Sir Tybalt - 18/08/2011 09:17:09 PM 1726 Views
It should be re-titled A Jump with Sharks Tom - 17/07/2011 06:00:37 PM 1921 Views
Publishers are more interested in the bottom line. Werthead - 18/07/2011 12:31:56 AM 1706 Views
Sadly, I am likely overestimating the intelligence of the readers. Tom - 18/07/2011 03:05:12 AM 1925 Views
I felt bummed by Sanderson's new series. everynametaken - 18/07/2011 05:25:09 AM 1777 Views
I bought that book but have yet to read it. Tom - 18/07/2011 01:09:15 PM 1707 Views
Re: I bought that book but have yet to read it. Zach - 20/07/2011 06:45:46 AM 1733 Views
You might like this quote from House of Leaves by Mark Z Danielewski. heartbreak - 11/08/2011 03:42:05 PM 1804 Views
I'm afraid I have to agree with what seems to be the majority opinion... Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:35:47 PM 1865 Views
And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading? Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:39:15 PM 1766 Views
Re: And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading? samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:17:41 AM 1901 Views
Yeah, I agree. Stephen - 18/07/2011 05:59:58 PM 1806 Views
The book really shows it is AFFC part 2 Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:00:07 AM 1778 Views
No doubt, much like readers would've been more forgiving of aFfC if it'd been two years after SoS. Legolas - 26/07/2011 11:28:43 PM 1816 Views
Am I The Only One In Love With Arya's Chapters? *spoilers maybe* samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:22:00 AM 1801 Views
I enjoyed them, very solid chapters. Libby - 18/07/2011 12:50:43 PM 1820 Views
Unlike others, I won't start a separate thread to express my thoughts Larry - 19/07/2011 11:21:17 AM 1943 Views
Yeah, I wished there was a way to move them in here! ironclad - 19/07/2011 01:42:51 PM 1684 Views
Me too... but going and complaining about them seems so lame, too. Legolas - 19/07/2011 07:34:47 PM 1693 Views
I agree with Jens, good balanced review. *NM* Legolas - 19/07/2011 07:50:13 PM 938 Views
I think you let him off too easily. Tom - 20/07/2011 04:19:07 AM 1830 Views
It might be that I expected even more of a longeur than what happened Larry - 20/07/2011 05:24:50 PM 1775 Views
Your review is a little too generous (in my opinion) Libby - 20/07/2011 06:57:45 AM 1994 Views
I find myself both depressed and let down... Zach - 20/07/2011 06:37:16 AM 2105 Views
Am I the only one who really likes... ironclad - 20/07/2011 06:04:00 PM 1885 Views
yeh, he is nice... *NM* aragornital - 20/07/2011 06:20:13 PM 929 Views
Davos is probably my favourite Stephen - 20/07/2011 09:51:03 PM 1616 Views
I have to disagree in regards to Penny, she's a plot device and an annoying one at that. Variant - 21/07/2011 01:15:33 AM 1929 Views
Re: I have to disagree in regards to Penny, she's a plot device and an annoying one at that. Timthetrolloc - 21/07/2011 09:33:00 AM 1744 Views
The six bodies fired by the trebuchet Stephen - 20/07/2011 10:36:16 PM 1791 Views
Yes, I was confused by that too. Legolas - 20/07/2011 10:53:35 PM 1701 Views
Probably pale mare victims. Seige warfare via plague Urza - 20/07/2011 11:23:10 PM 1757 Views
Yes, I considered that as well... Legolas - 20/07/2011 11:48:32 PM 1730 Views
Have Quentyn's two mates already been sent off a this point? ironclad - 21/07/2011 02:03:15 PM 1771 Views
That could be it. *NM* Stephen - 21/07/2011 01:43:16 PM 845 Views
It's not six bodies, it's six trebuchets throwing corpses instead of stones DomA - 27/07/2011 01:03:51 AM 1841 Views
That's how I read it as well. Six trebuchets opening up. *NM* Michael - 11/08/2011 12:19:09 PM 928 Views
Stannis ironclad - 21/07/2011 08:43:40 AM 1741 Views
It's entirely possible Stannis was killed Tom - 21/07/2011 02:09:10 PM 1828 Views
I highly doubt he's dead A Deathwatch Guard - 21/07/2011 07:29:59 PM 1777 Views
The bluff makes the most sense: if the Boltons beat Stannis, why does he ask for Theon & Jeyne? Cannoli - 22/07/2011 12:01:30 AM 1839 Views
Yeah... Urza - 22/07/2011 12:27:53 AM 1734 Views
The letter sounded like the ravings of a psychopath loosing control DomA - 27/07/2011 02:56:21 AM 1886 Views
The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. Libby - 21/07/2011 10:43:43 PM 1841 Views
Re: The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. Werthead - 22/07/2011 05:42:13 PM 1911 Views
Alternatively.. fionwe1987 - 22/07/2011 09:13:46 PM 1737 Views
Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? Tom - 22/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 1777 Views
None of them. Werthead - 22/07/2011 06:25:19 PM 1720 Views
Is that personal opinion or based on something Martin said? *NM* Tom - 22/07/2011 06:37:57 PM 938 Views
Opinion Werthead - 22/07/2011 07:43:16 PM 1737 Views
Regardless of whether or not they actually get involved, their existence (or not) is signficant. Tom - 23/07/2011 02:17:48 AM 1597 Views
I think there are some god's, just given different names. Same with the magic. fionwe1987 - 22/07/2011 09:24:51 PM 1714 Views
Lose the apostrophe in the subject line. Then: on what basis do you assume this? Tom - 23/07/2011 02:28:49 AM 1787 Views
You might want to stop wasting time correcting others typos. As for the gods... fionwe1987 - 23/07/2011 04:53:59 AM 1640 Views
You might want to stop making them. Particularly glaring ones like that. Tom - 23/07/2011 05:01:03 AM 1820 Views
A typo can't be "glaring"... fionwe1987 - 23/07/2011 08:08:51 AM 1699 Views
Sure it can. Glaring: conspicuous or obvious. Tom - 23/07/2011 03:52:57 PM 1715 Views
Morality stems from god? A Deathwatch Guard - 22/07/2011 10:47:59 PM 1705 Views
Of course it does Tom - 23/07/2011 02:26:50 AM 1695 Views
On second thought, let's address the issue directly. Tom - 23/07/2011 05:14:59 AM 1778 Views
Perhaps... A Deathwatch Guard - 24/07/2011 07:03:24 PM 1724 Views
Its simple... Urza - 24/07/2011 07:37:11 PM 1712 Views
I disagree... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 04:10:04 AM 1796 Views
Bullshit. Tom - 25/07/2011 05:44:41 AM 1664 Views
Re: Bullshit. fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 06:27:09 AM 1576 Views
The Seven probably has more power and influence than any other religion though. Werthead - 25/07/2011 07:51:59 PM 1617 Views
In Westeros, but I always got the feeling the Free Cities and other places didn't much care for them A Deathwatch Guard - 26/07/2011 10:53:45 PM 1729 Views
Westeros is the biggest coherent civilisation in the ASoIaF world. Werthead - 27/07/2011 12:56:21 AM 1768 Views
Some thoughts... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 04:54:05 AM 1687 Views
It's not an objective morality. Tom - 25/07/2011 05:41:33 AM 1685 Views
Its not that simple... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 06:21:39 AM 1741 Views
I don't disagree with most of what you said. I just reach a different conclusion. Tom - 25/07/2011 01:57:31 PM 1675 Views
Well... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 05:02:45 PM 1684 Views
How then do you deal with the Euthyphro dilemma? Tim - 16/08/2011 01:43:18 PM 1553 Views
Re: Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? aragornital - 25/07/2011 02:24:07 PM 1648 Views
Whats the best new POV Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:14:05 AM 1736 Views
Barristan Werthead - 26/07/2011 12:23:20 PM 1693 Views
Didn't Aeron "Damphair" Greyjoy also only have 2 POVs Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:56:57 PM 1768 Views
Agreed. *NM* Legolas - 26/07/2011 11:33:11 PM 969 Views
thirded. Jessie - 27/07/2011 04:16:26 PM 1559 Views
Absolutely *NM* ironclad - 29/07/2011 02:31:54 AM 1017 Views
Things you missed till they were pointed out via others or via a reread Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:23:53 AM 1886 Views
A bit. Werthead - 26/07/2011 12:32:32 PM 1853 Views
Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:46:54 PM 1785 Views
Re: Werthead - 27/07/2011 12:43:43 AM 1721 Views
Martin doesn't have to do anything Roland00 - 27/07/2011 01:33:36 AM 1798 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything DomA - 27/07/2011 04:38:19 AM 1694 Views
The crone who prophesied the stallion who mounts the world saw the stallions face Roland00 - 27/07/2011 05:13:28 AM 1817 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything aragornital - 27/07/2011 08:58:55 AM 1624 Views
Re: DomA - 27/07/2011 04:27:18 AM 1803 Views
I like your theory. Jessie - 27/07/2011 04:35:22 PM 1810 Views
Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. Legolas - 26/07/2011 11:32:18 PM 1801 Views
Re: Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. Roland00 - 27/07/2011 02:00:42 AM 1704 Views
Eh? Elaine - 29/07/2011 04:44:17 PM 1813 Views
This is complicated. Werthead - 31/07/2011 10:43:15 PM 2022 Views
Wait...a woman crowned for beauty was the victorious mystery knight? Tom - 01/08/2011 03:00:49 AM 1716 Views
It is believed the Knight of the Laughing Tree is one of two people Roland00 - 01/08/2011 04:47:21 AM 1755 Views
Yup. Werthead - 02/08/2011 12:03:26 AM 1660 Views
Also... fionwe1987 - 02/08/2011 07:17:43 AM 1748 Views
And yet, my huge brain figures it out Elaine - 04/08/2011 04:20:06 PM 1716 Views
I've read this scene yesterday and I missed this... aragornital - 02/08/2011 07:55:35 AM 1746 Views
Allow me Elaine - 05/08/2011 02:14:15 PM 1599 Views
thanks *NM* aragornital - 07/08/2011 07:28:21 AM 917 Views
I thought this was pretty clear HousealThor - 07/08/2011 05:18:54 PM 1619 Views
Hizdahr a Harpy? Innocent or Not? Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:36:56 AM 2023 Views
Interesting idea. Werthead - 26/07/2011 12:25:11 PM 1831 Views
Re: Interesting idea. Jessie - 27/07/2011 04:25:02 PM 1745 Views
What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? Roland00 - 26/07/2011 04:13:27 PM 1742 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? Werthead - 27/07/2011 12:49:52 AM 1949 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? DomA - 27/07/2011 03:49:18 AM 1859 Views
Re: A Dance with Dragons discussion thread jwk - 29/07/2011 01:42:57 AM 1865 Views
Okay. I suck. jwk - 29/07/2011 01:50:56 AM 1657 Views
Let me rephrase that... jwk - 29/07/2011 01:54:07 AM 1642 Views
Jon Snow is definitely Azor Ahai. Kotagg - 29/07/2011 07:31:17 PM 2252 Views
Hmm ironclad - 31/07/2011 01:52:03 PM 2021 Views
you are correct Jim - 31/07/2011 11:08:39 PM 1720 Views
Yup. Werthead - 31/07/2011 10:49:34 PM 1575 Views
But Shireen is a dragon... fionwe1987 - 01/08/2011 12:22:16 AM 1758 Views
I'm uncertain about that Larry - 01/08/2011 05:35:18 AM 1725 Views
True, but I wouldn't read too much into that. Werthead - 01/08/2011 11:42:29 PM 2003 Views
Where did he say that? fionwe1987 - 02/08/2011 07:18:39 AM 1851 Views
In interviews Werthead - 02/08/2011 02:21:28 PM 1831 Views
A little thought about Jon... aragornital - 02/08/2011 08:02:34 AM 1885 Views
Excellent point. Werthead - 02/08/2011 02:22:22 PM 1808 Views
Am I the only one who thinks... The Doctor - 09/08/2011 05:16:46 PM 1834 Views
I think Martin's gonna stick to Bran being the only one who does that ironclad - 10/08/2011 09:25:12 AM 1752 Views
It's possible, the problem is Jon's warging skill isn't all that well developed. Libby - 10/08/2011 10:53:32 PM 1729 Views
Anyone have any thoughts as to the purpose of Arya's storyline? Chas - 14/08/2011 06:28:09 PM 1732 Views
She's being trained as an assassin, so the question is who is she going to kill? Werthead - 16/08/2011 01:43:12 AM 1666 Views
Jon? Sir Tybalt - 18/08/2011 09:59:03 PM 1706 Views
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