Active Users:992 Time:19/12/2024 06:13:11 AM
Its not that simple... fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 25/07/2011 06:21:39 AM
The point is that, when everything is completely subjective, any morality works just fine. Yes, I know that people get killed because of religion. Right now a lot of Muslims seem to be into the idea of blowing themselves and others up for their religion. However, the simple fact is that the vast majority of Muslims believe this is wrong, just as the vast majority of Christians, etc.

Yes, any morality can work just fine, so long as society thinks it is okay. Take the case of terrorists who blow themselves up. You're right, a vast majority of Muslims think this is wrong. But does the strength of that moral lie in the fact that it stems from the Quran, or because a vast majority think it is wrong? How many of those Muslims who completely reject terrorism are devout followers who accept every word of the Quran and live by it? How many say so out of simple, and completely acceptable, self interest, seeing that being tarnished as the religion of terrorism has done Islam and its followers no favors, politically or economically? How many who support terrorism attribute God and his word as their inspiration, and how many who repudiate it draw inspiration from reason, logic and humanism?

On the other hand, atheist systems have killed millions and millions of people. Stalin killed at least 20 million, Mao probably killed 60 million, and Pol Pot only killed about 2 million but it was 25% of his country's population. This was a subjective morality.

But the question is, would religious belief have changed this? It is not like militant atheism drove these people to commit their atrocities. I'm unsure if any causal relationship can be established between the atheism of these systems and the extent of their crimes against humanity.

On the flip side, religion certainly doesn't seem to stop crime. Look at Imperialism. The absolute number of deaths may not match those you listed above, at least not at any one single point, but the cost in terms of economic hardship, cultural and political oppression is still very great. And a lot of it was done in the name of spreading religion and the associated "superior" culture, or at least couched in these terms.

Look too at the Partition of India, with the millions displaced, and about a million dead. The legacy of that still continues.

As many have noted, belief in "progress" or "secularism" has not improved the way that people treat each other.

People may note all they want, but actual research suggests otherwise. There is a direct correlation between crime rates, tolerance, etc. and secularism.

The absolute subjectivity of morality plays a part in this. I realize that, if there actually ISN'T a God, then the morality imposed by religion is also subjective. However, if there IS a God, then it is objective, not subjective. And THAT is the point of what I've been asking.

That doesn't make much sense, though. If, tomorrow, it is proved that, for the sake of this discussion, Allah is real, and he does condone terrorism, does this suddenly make terrorism moral? Should India, Israel, the US and Europe accept that Jihad against "infidels" is alright? Or if the Christian God is real, and he does disapprove of homosexuality, should all the gains in gay rights be reversed? Or if he doesn't mind, will those who worked against gay rights, sometimes violently, out of a genuine belief that they were doing God's work, be consigned to Hell?

A possible future proof of God cannot in any way alter current morality, because at the moment, everyone is working on the basis of faith or the lack of it. Just like a future change in law cannot determine the legality of my current actions.
Reply to message
A Dance with Dragons discussion thread - 11/07/2011 10:48:23 PM 6253 Views
Okay, first impressions. Basically spoiler-free, I suppose. - 11/07/2011 11:40:31 PM 1793 Views
I have it! *NM* - 12/07/2011 05:42:27 AM 973 Views
A general question to get the discussion started: will two more books be enough? - 12/07/2011 02:22:52 PM 2002 Views
A very good question *major spoilers, then* - 12/07/2011 02:55:05 PM 1981 Views
Oh, come on. If anyone can do it, Martin can. - 15/07/2011 03:48:27 AM 1670 Views
It'll be tight. - 12/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 1975 Views
No but I think 3 will be possible - 26/07/2011 03:15:02 AM 1802 Views
what is Purple Wedding? *NM* - 27/07/2011 08:37:04 AM 861 Views
Joffrey and Margaery wedding - 27/07/2011 04:26:04 PM 1832 Views
Hero of the book? - 12/07/2011 10:12:02 PM 2109 Views
Lord Manderly gets my vote. - 12/07/2011 10:41:19 PM 1921 Views
Re: Hero of the book? - 12/07/2011 10:43:20 PM 1798 Views
Re: Hero of the book? - 12/07/2011 11:50:29 PM 1793 Views
Ohh, so that was what that was about. - 17/07/2011 07:08:19 PM 1815 Views
That's what I thought too. - 25/07/2011 01:48:50 AM 1836 Views
Victorian Greyjoy = Hero of the book *NM* - 21/07/2011 06:20:25 AM 1016 Views
Asshole of the book? - 12/07/2011 10:46:10 PM 1992 Views
Agreed. - 12/07/2011 11:18:07 PM 1937 Views
Yeah, little doubt there. - 17/07/2011 07:09:53 PM 1782 Views
Seriously... - 18/07/2011 03:07:47 AM 1752 Views
Daenerys Targaryen & lifetime achievement award to Lord Rickard Stark - 17/08/2011 12:38:40 AM 1696 Views
Idiot of the book. - 12/07/2011 11:21:51 PM 2037 Views
lol yep, definitely *NM* - 13/07/2011 08:12:42 AM 960 Views
Re: Idiot of the book. - 17/07/2011 12:42:20 AM 1873 Views
Wait... no she doesn't! - 17/07/2011 01:29:52 AM 1799 Views
She thinks both - 18/07/2011 12:22:59 AM 1717 Views
So... - 17/07/2011 07:18:24 PM 1753 Views
No, it's him. - 18/07/2011 12:25:33 AM 1743 Views
Is there any hot sex scenes? I won't be able to read it for a while *NM* - 13/07/2011 02:35:49 PM 1052 Views
One or two, but not all that long ones *NM* - 13/07/2011 02:57:12 PM 1010 Views
Great Ending - 14/07/2011 01:21:53 AM 2038 Views
Really? - 14/07/2011 09:36:01 AM 1956 Views
Re: Really? - 14/07/2011 09:38:34 AM 1643 Views
Re: Great Ending - 18/07/2011 02:05:00 AM 1764 Views
YES! - 14/07/2011 02:38:48 AM 1609 Views
Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply - 16/07/2011 07:27:43 PM 1756 Views
Re: Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply - 17/07/2011 12:45:52 AM 1705 Views
I don't know what to think... (spoiler) - 14/07/2011 08:59:39 AM 1949 Views
Probably not. - 14/07/2011 09:19:03 AM 1948 Views
Re: Probably not. - 14/07/2011 03:57:55 PM 1776 Views
I think the two are mixed up. - 14/07/2011 11:23:06 PM 1852 Views
Re: I think the two are mixed up. - 18/07/2011 02:10:29 AM 1695 Views
What made least sense for me as far as that is concerned... - 14/07/2011 11:51:20 AM 1823 Views
They didn't. - 14/07/2011 11:24:53 PM 1869 Views
I see - 15/07/2011 08:28:09 AM 1782 Views
Didn't Jon just announced - 26/07/2011 02:51:07 AM 1751 Views
Something I totally missed first time through - 14/07/2011 09:40:33 AM 2136 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through - 16/07/2011 01:24:23 AM 2064 Views
Yep, that's what he said/thought - 17/07/2011 05:02:32 AM 1872 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through - 23/07/2011 04:14:38 PM 1719 Views
Well that brings new meaning - 26/07/2011 02:53:18 AM 1641 Views
I'm still not fully done, but about the Reek chapters... - 14/07/2011 04:05:29 PM 1875 Views
Agreed - 14/07/2011 06:18:15 PM 1890 Views
There's another... - 14/07/2011 07:16:11 PM 1691 Views
There's that... - 17/07/2011 01:12:33 AM 1739 Views
It's worse than that... - 17/07/2011 01:26:50 AM 1779 Views
Torture is wrong, and those chapters kinda proved it. *NM* - 26/07/2011 02:53:55 AM 952 Views
Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) - 16/07/2011 08:11:30 AM 1878 Views
Re: Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) - 17/07/2011 01:02:10 AM 1810 Views
You put words to my thoughts exactly. - 18/08/2011 09:17:09 PM 1726 Views
It should be re-titled A Jump with Sharks - 17/07/2011 06:00:37 PM 1920 Views
Publishers are more interested in the bottom line. - 18/07/2011 12:31:56 AM 1705 Views
Sadly, I am likely overestimating the intelligence of the readers. - 18/07/2011 03:05:12 AM 1925 Views
I felt bummed by Sanderson's new series. - 18/07/2011 05:25:09 AM 1777 Views
I bought that book but have yet to read it. - 18/07/2011 01:09:15 PM 1707 Views
Re: I bought that book but have yet to read it. - 20/07/2011 06:45:46 AM 1733 Views
You might like this quote from House of Leaves by Mark Z Danielewski. - 11/08/2011 03:42:05 PM 1804 Views
I'm afraid I have to agree with what seems to be the majority opinion... - 17/07/2011 07:35:47 PM 1865 Views
And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading? - 17/07/2011 07:39:15 PM 1766 Views
Yeah, I agree. - 18/07/2011 05:59:58 PM 1805 Views
The book really shows it is AFFC part 2 - 26/07/2011 03:00:07 AM 1777 Views
Am I The Only One In Love With Arya's Chapters? *spoilers maybe* - 18/07/2011 02:22:00 AM 1801 Views
I enjoyed them, very solid chapters. - 18/07/2011 12:50:43 PM 1820 Views
Unlike others, I won't start a separate thread to express my thoughts - 19/07/2011 11:21:17 AM 1942 Views
Yeah, I wished there was a way to move them in here! - 19/07/2011 01:42:51 PM 1684 Views
Me too... but going and complaining about them seems so lame, too. - 19/07/2011 07:34:47 PM 1692 Views
I agree with Jens, good balanced review. *NM* - 19/07/2011 07:50:13 PM 938 Views
I think you let him off too easily. - 20/07/2011 04:19:07 AM 1830 Views
Your review is a little too generous (in my opinion) - 20/07/2011 06:57:45 AM 1994 Views
I find myself both depressed and let down... - 20/07/2011 06:37:16 AM 2105 Views
Am I the only one who really likes... - 20/07/2011 06:04:00 PM 1884 Views
yeh, he is nice... *NM* - 20/07/2011 06:20:13 PM 929 Views
Davos is probably my favourite - 20/07/2011 09:51:03 PM 1616 Views
The six bodies fired by the trebuchet - 20/07/2011 10:36:16 PM 1790 Views
Yes, I was confused by that too. - 20/07/2011 10:53:35 PM 1701 Views
Probably pale mare victims. Seige warfare via plague - 20/07/2011 11:23:10 PM 1757 Views
Yes, I considered that as well... - 20/07/2011 11:48:32 PM 1729 Views
Have Quentyn's two mates already been sent off a this point? - 21/07/2011 02:03:15 PM 1771 Views
That could be it. *NM* - 21/07/2011 01:43:16 PM 845 Views
Stannis - 21/07/2011 08:43:40 AM 1741 Views
It's entirely possible Stannis was killed - 21/07/2011 02:09:10 PM 1828 Views
I highly doubt he's dead - 21/07/2011 07:29:59 PM 1777 Views
The bluff makes the most sense: if the Boltons beat Stannis, why does he ask for Theon & Jeyne? - 22/07/2011 12:01:30 AM 1839 Views
Yeah... - 22/07/2011 12:27:53 AM 1734 Views
The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. - 21/07/2011 10:43:43 PM 1840 Views
Re: The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. - 22/07/2011 05:42:13 PM 1911 Views
Alternatively.. - 22/07/2011 09:13:46 PM 1737 Views
Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? - 22/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 1777 Views
None of them. - 22/07/2011 06:25:19 PM 1720 Views
Is that personal opinion or based on something Martin said? *NM* - 22/07/2011 06:37:57 PM 937 Views
Opinion - 22/07/2011 07:43:16 PM 1737 Views
I think there are some god's, just given different names. Same with the magic. - 22/07/2011 09:24:51 PM 1714 Views
Lose the apostrophe in the subject line. Then: on what basis do you assume this? - 23/07/2011 02:28:49 AM 1787 Views
You might want to stop wasting time correcting others typos. As for the gods... - 23/07/2011 04:53:59 AM 1639 Views
You might want to stop making them. Particularly glaring ones like that. - 23/07/2011 05:01:03 AM 1819 Views
A typo can't be "glaring"... - 23/07/2011 08:08:51 AM 1699 Views
Sure it can. Glaring: conspicuous or obvious. - 23/07/2011 03:52:57 PM 1714 Views
Morality stems from god? - 22/07/2011 10:47:59 PM 1705 Views
Of course it does - 23/07/2011 02:26:50 AM 1695 Views
On second thought, let's address the issue directly. - 23/07/2011 05:14:59 AM 1778 Views
Perhaps... - 24/07/2011 07:03:24 PM 1724 Views
Its simple... - 24/07/2011 07:37:11 PM 1712 Views
I disagree... - 25/07/2011 04:10:04 AM 1795 Views
Bullshit. - 25/07/2011 05:44:41 AM 1664 Views
Re: Bullshit. - 25/07/2011 06:27:09 AM 1575 Views
Some thoughts... - 25/07/2011 04:54:05 AM 1687 Views
It's not an objective morality. - 25/07/2011 05:41:33 AM 1685 Views
Its not that simple... - 25/07/2011 06:21:39 AM 1741 Views
I don't disagree with most of what you said. I just reach a different conclusion. - 25/07/2011 01:57:31 PM 1675 Views
Well... - 25/07/2011 05:02:45 PM 1684 Views
How then do you deal with the Euthyphro dilemma? - 16/08/2011 01:43:18 PM 1553 Views
Re: Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? - 25/07/2011 02:24:07 PM 1648 Views
Whats the best new POV - 26/07/2011 03:14:05 AM 1736 Views
Barristan - 26/07/2011 12:23:20 PM 1693 Views
Didn't Aeron "Damphair" Greyjoy also only have 2 POVs - 26/07/2011 03:56:57 PM 1768 Views
Agreed. *NM* - 26/07/2011 11:33:11 PM 968 Views
thirded. - 27/07/2011 04:16:26 PM 1559 Views
Absolutely *NM* - 29/07/2011 02:31:54 AM 1017 Views
Things you missed till they were pointed out via others or via a reread - 26/07/2011 03:23:53 AM 1885 Views
A bit. - 26/07/2011 12:32:32 PM 1853 Views
- 26/07/2011 03:46:54 PM 1784 Views
Re: - 27/07/2011 12:43:43 AM 1721 Views
Martin doesn't have to do anything - 27/07/2011 01:33:36 AM 1797 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything - 27/07/2011 04:38:19 AM 1694 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything - 27/07/2011 08:58:55 AM 1624 Views
Re: - 27/07/2011 04:27:18 AM 1802 Views
I like your theory. - 27/07/2011 04:35:22 PM 1810 Views
Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. - 26/07/2011 11:32:18 PM 1800 Views
Re: Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. - 27/07/2011 02:00:42 AM 1704 Views
Eh? - 29/07/2011 04:44:17 PM 1813 Views
This is complicated. - 31/07/2011 10:43:15 PM 2022 Views
Wait...a woman crowned for beauty was the victorious mystery knight? - 01/08/2011 03:00:49 AM 1715 Views
It is believed the Knight of the Laughing Tree is one of two people - 01/08/2011 04:47:21 AM 1755 Views
Yup. - 02/08/2011 12:03:26 AM 1660 Views
Also... - 02/08/2011 07:17:43 AM 1748 Views
And yet, my huge brain figures it out - 04/08/2011 04:20:06 PM 1716 Views
I've read this scene yesterday and I missed this... - 02/08/2011 07:55:35 AM 1746 Views
Allow me - 05/08/2011 02:14:15 PM 1599 Views
thanks *NM* - 07/08/2011 07:28:21 AM 917 Views
I thought this was pretty clear - 07/08/2011 05:18:54 PM 1618 Views
Hizdahr a Harpy? Innocent or Not? - 26/07/2011 03:36:56 AM 2023 Views
Interesting idea. - 26/07/2011 12:25:11 PM 1831 Views
Re: Interesting idea. - 27/07/2011 04:25:02 PM 1745 Views
What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? - 26/07/2011 04:13:27 PM 1742 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? - 27/07/2011 12:49:52 AM 1949 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? - 27/07/2011 03:49:18 AM 1859 Views
Re: A Dance with Dragons discussion thread - 29/07/2011 01:42:57 AM 1864 Views
Okay. I suck. - 29/07/2011 01:50:56 AM 1657 Views
Let me rephrase that... - 29/07/2011 01:54:07 AM 1642 Views
Jon Snow is definitely Azor Ahai. - 29/07/2011 07:31:17 PM 2252 Views
Hmm - 31/07/2011 01:52:03 PM 2021 Views
you are correct - 31/07/2011 11:08:39 PM 1719 Views
Yup. - 31/07/2011 10:49:34 PM 1575 Views
But Shireen is a dragon... - 01/08/2011 12:22:16 AM 1758 Views
I'm uncertain about that - 01/08/2011 05:35:18 AM 1724 Views
True, but I wouldn't read too much into that. - 01/08/2011 11:42:29 PM 2002 Views
Where did he say that? - 02/08/2011 07:18:39 AM 1851 Views
In interviews - 02/08/2011 02:21:28 PM 1831 Views
A little thought about Jon... - 02/08/2011 08:02:34 AM 1885 Views
Excellent point. - 02/08/2011 02:22:22 PM 1808 Views
Am I the only one who thinks... - 09/08/2011 05:16:46 PM 1834 Views
I think Martin's gonna stick to Bran being the only one who does that - 10/08/2011 09:25:12 AM 1752 Views
Anyone have any thoughts as to the purpose of Arya's storyline? - 14/08/2011 06:28:09 PM 1732 Views
She's being trained as an assassin, so the question is who is she going to kill? - 16/08/2011 01:43:12 AM 1666 Views
Jon? - 18/08/2011 09:59:03 PM 1706 Views

Reply to Message