The point is that, when everything is completely subjective, any morality works just fine. Yes, I know that people get killed because of religion. Right now a lot of Muslims seem to be into the idea of blowing themselves and others up for their religion. However, the simple fact is that the vast majority of Muslims believe this is wrong, just as the vast majority of Christians, etc.
Yes, any morality can work just fine, so long as society thinks it is okay. Take the case of terrorists who blow themselves up. You're right, a vast majority of Muslims think this is wrong. But does the strength of that moral lie in the fact that it stems from the Quran, or because a vast majority think it is wrong? How many of those Muslims who completely reject terrorism are devout followers who accept every word of the Quran and live by it? How many say so out of simple, and completely acceptable, self interest, seeing that being tarnished as the religion of terrorism has done Islam and its followers no favors, politically or economically? How many who support terrorism attribute God and his word as their inspiration, and how many who repudiate it draw inspiration from reason, logic and humanism?
On the other hand, atheist systems have killed millions and millions of people. Stalin killed at least 20 million, Mao probably killed 60 million, and Pol Pot only killed about 2 million but it was 25% of his country's population. This was a subjective morality.
But the question is, would religious belief have changed this? It is not like militant atheism drove these people to commit their atrocities. I'm unsure if any causal relationship can be established between the atheism of these systems and the extent of their crimes against humanity.
On the flip side, religion certainly doesn't seem to stop crime. Look at Imperialism. The absolute number of deaths may not match those you listed above, at least not at any one single point, but the cost in terms of economic hardship, cultural and political oppression is still very great. And a lot of it was done in the name of spreading religion and the associated "superior" culture, or at least couched in these terms.
Look too at the Partition of India, with the millions displaced, and about a million dead. The legacy of that still continues.
As many have noted, belief in "progress" or "secularism" has not improved the way that people treat each other.
People may note all they want, but actual research suggests otherwise. There is a direct correlation between crime rates, tolerance, etc. and secularism.
The absolute subjectivity of morality plays a part in this. I realize that, if there actually ISN'T a God, then the morality imposed by religion is also subjective. However, if there IS a God, then it is objective, not subjective. And THAT is the point of what I've been asking.
That doesn't make much sense, though. If, tomorrow, it is proved that, for the sake of this discussion, Allah is real, and he does condone terrorism, does this suddenly make terrorism moral? Should India, Israel, the US and Europe accept that Jihad against "infidels" is alright? Or if the Christian God is real, and he does disapprove of homosexuality, should all the gains in gay rights be reversed? Or if he doesn't mind, will those who worked against gay rights, sometimes violently, out of a genuine belief that they were doing God's work, be consigned to Hell?
A possible future proof of God cannot in any way alter current morality, because at the moment, everyone is working on the basis of faith or the lack of it. Just like a future change in law cannot determine the legality of my current actions.
A Dance with Dragons discussion thread
11/07/2011 10:48:23 PM
- 6253 Views
A general question to get the discussion started: will two more books be enough?
12/07/2011 02:22:52 PM
- 2002 Views
It'll be tight.
12/07/2011 04:32:39 PM
- 1975 Views
What does "resurrection-as-PWWP Jon" mean? Got it - Prince Who Was Promised!
18/08/2011 08:59:44 PM
- 1871 Views
No but I think 3 will be possible
26/07/2011 03:15:02 AM
- 1802 Views
Hero of the book?
12/07/2011 10:12:02 PM
- 2109 Views
Barristan should be renamed as Ser Grandfather, you do not mess with Ser Grandfather *NM*
26/07/2011 03:32:09 AM
- 1018 Views
Asshole of the book?
12/07/2011 10:46:10 PM
- 1992 Views
Agreed.
12/07/2011 11:18:07 PM
- 1937 Views
Seconded. He'd probably make my short list of Assholes of the Series to date. *NM*
12/07/2011 11:25:04 PM
- 913 Views
Daenerys Targaryen & lifetime achievement award to Lord Rickard Stark
17/08/2011 12:38:40 AM
- 1696 Views
Idiot of the book.
12/07/2011 11:21:51 PM
- 2037 Views
I think readers are being too hard on Quentyn, If anything I think Doran derserves more mocking.
17/07/2011 01:09:35 AM
- 2204 Views
Is there any hot sex scenes? I won't be able to read it for a while *NM*
13/07/2011 02:35:49 PM
- 1052 Views
YES!
14/07/2011 02:38:48 AM
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I don't know what to think... (spoiler)
14/07/2011 08:59:39 AM
- 1949 Views
Probably not.
14/07/2011 09:19:03 AM
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Re: Probably not.
14/07/2011 03:57:55 PM
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What made least sense for me as far as that is concerned...
14/07/2011 11:51:20 AM
- 1823 Views
Something I totally missed first time through
14/07/2011 09:40:33 AM
- 2136 Views
I'm still not fully done, but about the Reek chapters...
14/07/2011 04:05:29 PM
- 1875 Views
GRRM completely shit the bed on Jon's arc within this book. That's the truth.
16/07/2011 12:51:08 AM
- 1912 Views
Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers)
16/07/2011 08:11:30 AM
- 1878 Views
Personally, I felt 'A Feast for Crows' was not only better written but more condensed.
17/07/2011 11:15:58 AM
- 1857 Views
Summed up like that there is no way to disagree with what you said
17/07/2011 11:33:01 AM
- 1844 Views
It should be re-titled A Jump with Sharks
17/07/2011 06:00:37 PM
- 1920 Views
Publishers are more interested in the bottom line.
18/07/2011 12:31:56 AM
- 1705 Views
Sadly, I am likely overestimating the intelligence of the readers.
18/07/2011 03:05:12 AM
- 1925 Views
I felt bummed by Sanderson's new series.
18/07/2011 05:25:09 AM
- 1777 Views
You might like this quote from House of Leaves by Mark Z Danielewski.
11/08/2011 03:42:05 PM
- 1804 Views
I'm afraid I have to agree with what seems to be the majority opinion...
17/07/2011 07:35:47 PM
- 1865 Views
And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading?
17/07/2011 07:39:15 PM
- 1766 Views
Re: And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading?
18/07/2011 02:17:41 AM
- 1901 Views
The book really shows it is AFFC part 2
26/07/2011 03:00:07 AM
- 1777 Views
No doubt, much like readers would've been more forgiving of aFfC if it'd been two years after SoS.
26/07/2011 11:28:43 PM
- 1816 Views
Am I The Only One In Love With Arya's Chapters? *spoilers maybe*
18/07/2011 02:22:00 AM
- 1801 Views
Unlike others, I won't start a separate thread to express my thoughts
19/07/2011 11:21:17 AM
- 1942 Views
Yeah, I wished there was a way to move them in here!
19/07/2011 01:42:51 PM
- 1684 Views
Me too... but going and complaining about them seems so lame, too.
19/07/2011 07:34:47 PM
- 1692 Views
I think you let him off too easily.
20/07/2011 04:19:07 AM
- 1830 Views
It might be that I expected even more of a longeur than what happened
20/07/2011 05:24:50 PM
- 1775 Views
Am I the only one who really likes...
20/07/2011 06:04:00 PM
- 1884 Views
I have to disagree in regards to Penny, she's a plot device and an annoying one at that.
21/07/2011 01:15:33 AM
- 1929 Views
Re: I have to disagree in regards to Penny, she's a plot device and an annoying one at that.
21/07/2011 09:33:00 AM
- 1744 Views
The six bodies fired by the trebuchet
20/07/2011 10:36:16 PM
- 1790 Views
Yes, I was confused by that too.
20/07/2011 10:53:35 PM
- 1701 Views
Probably pale mare victims. Seige warfare via plague
20/07/2011 11:23:10 PM
- 1757 Views
It's not six bodies, it's six trebuchets throwing corpses instead of stones
27/07/2011 01:03:51 AM
- 1840 Views
Stannis
21/07/2011 08:43:40 AM
- 1741 Views
I highly doubt he's dead
21/07/2011 07:29:59 PM
- 1777 Views
The bluff makes the most sense: if the Boltons beat Stannis, why does he ask for Theon & Jeyne?
22/07/2011 12:01:30 AM
- 1839 Views
The letter sounded like the ravings of a psychopath loosing control
27/07/2011 02:56:21 AM
- 1886 Views
The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up.
21/07/2011 10:43:43 PM
- 1840 Views
Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world?
22/07/2011 04:32:39 PM
- 1777 Views
None of them.
22/07/2011 06:25:19 PM
- 1720 Views
Is that personal opinion or based on something Martin said? *NM*
22/07/2011 06:37:57 PM
- 937 Views
Opinion
22/07/2011 07:43:16 PM
- 1737 Views
Regardless of whether or not they actually get involved, their existence (or not) is signficant.
23/07/2011 02:17:48 AM
- 1597 Views
I think there are some god's, just given different names. Same with the magic.
22/07/2011 09:24:51 PM
- 1714 Views
Lose the apostrophe in the subject line. Then: on what basis do you assume this?
23/07/2011 02:28:49 AM
- 1787 Views
You might want to stop wasting time correcting others typos. As for the gods...
23/07/2011 04:53:59 AM
- 1639 Views
You might want to stop making them. Particularly glaring ones like that.
23/07/2011 05:01:03 AM
- 1819 Views
Morality stems from god?
22/07/2011 10:47:59 PM
- 1705 Views
On second thought, let's address the issue directly.
23/07/2011 05:14:59 AM
- 1778 Views
Perhaps...
24/07/2011 07:03:24 PM
- 1724 Views
Its simple...
24/07/2011 07:37:11 PM
- 1712 Views
I disagree...
25/07/2011 04:10:04 AM
- 1795 Views
Bullshit.
25/07/2011 05:44:41 AM
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The Seven probably has more power and influence than any other religion though.
25/07/2011 07:51:59 PM
- 1617 Views
In Westeros, but I always got the feeling the Free Cities and other places didn't much care for them
26/07/2011 10:53:45 PM
- 1729 Views
Westeros is the biggest coherent civilisation in the ASoIaF world.
27/07/2011 12:56:21 AM
- 1768 Views
Some thoughts...
25/07/2011 04:54:05 AM
- 1687 Views
It's not an objective morality.
25/07/2011 05:41:33 AM
- 1685 Views
Its not that simple...
25/07/2011 06:21:39 AM
- 1741 Views
I don't disagree with most of what you said. I just reach a different conclusion.
25/07/2011 01:57:31 PM
- 1675 Views
Whats the best new POV
26/07/2011 03:14:05 AM
- 1736 Views
Things you missed till they were pointed out via others or via a reread
26/07/2011 03:23:53 AM
- 1885 Views
A bit.
26/07/2011 12:32:32 PM
- 1853 Views
26/07/2011 03:46:54 PM
- 1784 Views
Re:
27/07/2011 12:43:43 AM
- 1721 Views
Martin doesn't have to do anything
27/07/2011 01:33:36 AM
- 1797 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything
27/07/2011 04:38:19 AM
- 1694 Views
The crone who prophesied the stallion who mounts the world saw the stallions face
27/07/2011 05:13:28 AM
- 1817 Views
Eh?
29/07/2011 04:44:17 PM
- 1813 Views
This is complicated.
31/07/2011 10:43:15 PM
- 2022 Views
Wait...a woman crowned for beauty was the victorious mystery knight?
01/08/2011 03:00:49 AM
- 1715 Views
It is believed the Knight of the Laughing Tree is one of two people
01/08/2011 04:47:21 AM
- 1755 Views
Hizdahr a Harpy? Innocent or Not?
26/07/2011 03:36:56 AM
- 2023 Views
What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads?
26/07/2011 04:13:27 PM
- 1742 Views
Re: A Dance with Dragons discussion thread
29/07/2011 01:42:57 AM
- 1864 Views
Jon Snow is definitely Azor Ahai.
29/07/2011 07:31:17 PM
- 2252 Views
Yup.
31/07/2011 10:49:34 PM
- 1575 Views
I'm uncertain about that
01/08/2011 05:35:18 AM
- 1724 Views
True, but I wouldn't read too much into that.
01/08/2011 11:42:29 PM
- 2002 Views
Am I the only one who thinks...
09/08/2011 05:16:46 PM
- 1834 Views
I think Martin's gonna stick to Bran being the only one who does that
10/08/2011 09:25:12 AM
- 1752 Views
It's possible, the problem is Jon's warging skill isn't all that well developed.
10/08/2011 10:53:32 PM
- 1729 Views
Anyone have any thoughts as to the purpose of Arya's storyline?
14/08/2011 06:28:09 PM
- 1732 Views
She's being trained as an assassin, so the question is who is she going to kill?
16/08/2011 01:43:12 AM
- 1666 Views