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Its not that simple... fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 25/07/2011 06:21:39 AM
The point is that, when everything is completely subjective, any morality works just fine. Yes, I know that people get killed because of religion. Right now a lot of Muslims seem to be into the idea of blowing themselves and others up for their religion. However, the simple fact is that the vast majority of Muslims believe this is wrong, just as the vast majority of Christians, etc.

Yes, any morality can work just fine, so long as society thinks it is okay. Take the case of terrorists who blow themselves up. You're right, a vast majority of Muslims think this is wrong. But does the strength of that moral lie in the fact that it stems from the Quran, or because a vast majority think it is wrong? How many of those Muslims who completely reject terrorism are devout followers who accept every word of the Quran and live by it? How many say so out of simple, and completely acceptable, self interest, seeing that being tarnished as the religion of terrorism has done Islam and its followers no favors, politically or economically? How many who support terrorism attribute God and his word as their inspiration, and how many who repudiate it draw inspiration from reason, logic and humanism?

On the other hand, atheist systems have killed millions and millions of people. Stalin killed at least 20 million, Mao probably killed 60 million, and Pol Pot only killed about 2 million but it was 25% of his country's population. This was a subjective morality.

But the question is, would religious belief have changed this? It is not like militant atheism drove these people to commit their atrocities. I'm unsure if any causal relationship can be established between the atheism of these systems and the extent of their crimes against humanity.

On the flip side, religion certainly doesn't seem to stop crime. Look at Imperialism. The absolute number of deaths may not match those you listed above, at least not at any one single point, but the cost in terms of economic hardship, cultural and political oppression is still very great. And a lot of it was done in the name of spreading religion and the associated "superior" culture, or at least couched in these terms.

Look too at the Partition of India, with the millions displaced, and about a million dead. The legacy of that still continues.

As many have noted, belief in "progress" or "secularism" has not improved the way that people treat each other.

People may note all they want, but actual research suggests otherwise. There is a direct correlation between crime rates, tolerance, etc. and secularism.

The absolute subjectivity of morality plays a part in this. I realize that, if there actually ISN'T a God, then the morality imposed by religion is also subjective. However, if there IS a God, then it is objective, not subjective. And THAT is the point of what I've been asking.

That doesn't make much sense, though. If, tomorrow, it is proved that, for the sake of this discussion, Allah is real, and he does condone terrorism, does this suddenly make terrorism moral? Should India, Israel, the US and Europe accept that Jihad against "infidels" is alright? Or if the Christian God is real, and he does disapprove of homosexuality, should all the gains in gay rights be reversed? Or if he doesn't mind, will those who worked against gay rights, sometimes violently, out of a genuine belief that they were doing God's work, be consigned to Hell?

A possible future proof of God cannot in any way alter current morality, because at the moment, everyone is working on the basis of faith or the lack of it. Just like a future change in law cannot determine the legality of my current actions.
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A Dance with Dragons discussion thread - 11/07/2011 10:48:23 PM 6662 Views
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Alternatively.. - 22/07/2011 09:13:46 PM 2124 Views
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None of them. - 22/07/2011 06:25:19 PM 2080 Views
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How then do you deal with the Euthyphro dilemma? - 16/08/2011 01:43:18 PM 1933 Views
Re: Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? - 25/07/2011 02:24:07 PM 1998 Views
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- 26/07/2011 03:46:54 PM 2170 Views
Re: - 27/07/2011 12:43:43 AM 2157 Views
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Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything - 27/07/2011 08:58:55 AM 1982 Views
Re: - 27/07/2011 04:27:18 AM 2212 Views
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Re: Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. - 27/07/2011 02:00:42 AM 2061 Views
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Wait...a woman crowned for beauty was the victorious mystery knight? - 01/08/2011 03:00:49 AM 2087 Views
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Allow me - 05/08/2011 02:14:15 PM 2004 Views
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Interesting idea. - 26/07/2011 12:25:11 PM 2198 Views
Re: Interesting idea. - 27/07/2011 04:25:02 PM 2130 Views
What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? - 26/07/2011 04:13:27 PM 2130 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? - 27/07/2011 12:49:52 AM 2334 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? - 27/07/2011 03:49:18 AM 2275 Views
Re: A Dance with Dragons discussion thread - 29/07/2011 01:42:57 AM 2316 Views
Okay. I suck. - 29/07/2011 01:50:56 AM 2073 Views
Let me rephrase that... - 29/07/2011 01:54:07 AM 2053 Views
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Hmm - 31/07/2011 01:52:03 PM 2543 Views
you are correct - 31/07/2011 11:08:39 PM 2134 Views
Yup. - 31/07/2011 10:49:34 PM 1997 Views
But Shireen is a dragon... - 01/08/2011 12:22:16 AM 2124 Views
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True, but I wouldn't read too much into that. - 01/08/2011 11:42:29 PM 2384 Views
Where did he say that? - 02/08/2011 07:18:39 AM 2257 Views
In interviews - 02/08/2011 02:21:28 PM 2206 Views
A little thought about Jon... - 02/08/2011 08:02:34 AM 2271 Views
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Am I the only one who thinks... - 09/08/2011 05:16:46 PM 2232 Views
I think Martin's gonna stick to Bran being the only one who does that - 10/08/2011 09:25:12 AM 2304 Views
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She's being trained as an assassin, so the question is who is she going to kill? - 16/08/2011 01:43:12 AM 2058 Views
Jon? - 18/08/2011 09:59:03 PM 2105 Views

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