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Bullshit. Tom Send a noteboard - 25/07/2011 05:44:41 AM
You are assuming (1) that there is no way to know metaphysical laws (which is inherently limiting humanity for all eternity) and (2) that Martin can't tell us what metaphysical laws apply in his universe (and we know that he can, at least as long as he draws breath in that overweight frame of his).

It's clear that Martin can tell us who is real. Also, there is some magic underlying the Lord of Many Faces and R'llhor that we have NEVER seen with respect to the Seven. In fact, of ALL the religious systems, the Seven seems to be the most impotent.
Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.

ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius

Ummaka qinnassa nīk!

*MySmiley*
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A Dance with Dragons discussion thread Legolas - 11/07/2011 10:48:23 PM 6235 Views
Okay, first impressions. Basically spoiler-free, I suppose. ironclad - 11/07/2011 11:40:31 PM 1779 Views
I have it! *NM* fionwe1987 - 12/07/2011 05:42:27 AM 968 Views
A general question to get the discussion started: will two more books be enough? RandAllThor - 12/07/2011 02:22:52 PM 1988 Views
A very good question *major spoilers, then* ironclad - 12/07/2011 02:55:05 PM 1967 Views
Oh, come on. If anyone can do it, Martin can. Tom - 15/07/2011 03:48:27 AM 1660 Views
It'll be tight. Werthead - 12/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 1966 Views
What does "resurrection-as-PWWP Jon" mean? Got it - Prince Who Was Promised! Sir Tybalt - 18/08/2011 08:59:44 PM 1862 Views
No but I think 3 will be possible Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:15:02 AM 1790 Views
what is Purple Wedding? *NM* aragornital - 27/07/2011 08:37:04 AM 853 Views
Joffrey and Margaery wedding Roland00 - 27/07/2011 04:26:04 PM 1820 Views
Hero of the book? Werthead - 12/07/2011 10:12:02 PM 2100 Views
Lord Manderly gets my vote. RandAllThor - 12/07/2011 10:41:19 PM 1910 Views
Re: Hero of the book? ironclad - 12/07/2011 10:43:20 PM 1789 Views
Re: Hero of the book? ClubCaved - 12/07/2011 11:50:29 PM 1781 Views
Ohh, so that was what that was about. Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:08:19 PM 1804 Views
That's what I thought too. Jessie - 25/07/2011 01:48:50 AM 1822 Views
Victorian Greyjoy = Hero of the book *NM* Urza - 21/07/2011 06:20:25 AM 1011 Views
Barristan should be renamed as Ser Grandfather, you do not mess with Ser Grandfather *NM* Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:32:09 AM 1009 Views
Asshole of the book? ironclad - 12/07/2011 10:46:10 PM 1981 Views
Agreed. Werthead - 12/07/2011 11:18:07 PM 1925 Views
Seconded. He'd probably make my short list of Assholes of the Series to date. *NM* RandAllThor - 12/07/2011 11:25:04 PM 907 Views
Yeah, little doubt there. Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:09:53 PM 1773 Views
Seriously... Urza - 18/07/2011 03:07:47 AM 1741 Views
Daenerys Targaryen & lifetime achievement award to Lord Rickard Stark Cannoli - 17/08/2011 12:38:40 AM 1684 Views
Idiot of the book. Werthead - 12/07/2011 11:21:51 PM 2014 Views
lol yep, definitely *NM* ironclad - 13/07/2011 08:12:42 AM 951 Views
Re: Idiot of the book. Zaphod - 17/07/2011 12:42:20 AM 1866 Views
I think readers are being too hard on Quentyn, If anything I think Doran derserves more mocking. Libby - 17/07/2011 01:09:35 AM 2190 Views
Wait... no she doesn't! fionwe1987 - 17/07/2011 01:29:52 AM 1783 Views
She thinks both Werthead - 18/07/2011 12:22:59 AM 1701 Views
So... Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:18:24 PM 1738 Views
No, it's him. Werthead - 18/07/2011 12:25:33 AM 1732 Views
Is there any hot sex scenes? I won't be able to read it for a while *NM* Dark Knight - 13/07/2011 02:35:49 PM 1046 Views
One or two, but not all that long ones *NM* ironclad - 13/07/2011 02:57:12 PM 1004 Views
Great Ending ClubCaved - 14/07/2011 01:21:53 AM 2026 Views
Really? ironclad - 14/07/2011 09:36:01 AM 1943 Views
Re: Really? Werthead - 14/07/2011 09:38:34 AM 1635 Views
Re: Great Ending samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:05:00 AM 1755 Views
YES! Larry - 14/07/2011 02:38:48 AM 1596 Views
Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply Stephen - 16/07/2011 07:27:43 PM 1745 Views
Re: Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply Zaphod - 17/07/2011 12:45:52 AM 1698 Views
I don't know what to think... (spoiler) aragornital - 14/07/2011 08:59:39 AM 1941 Views
Probably not. Werthead - 14/07/2011 09:19:03 AM 1937 Views
Re: Probably not. aragornital - 14/07/2011 03:57:55 PM 1766 Views
I think the two are mixed up. Werthead - 14/07/2011 11:23:06 PM 1841 Views
Re: I think the two are mixed up. samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:10:29 AM 1684 Views
What made least sense for me as far as that is concerned... ironclad - 14/07/2011 11:51:20 AM 1813 Views
They didn't. Werthead - 14/07/2011 11:24:53 PM 1861 Views
I see ironclad - 15/07/2011 08:28:09 AM 1774 Views
Didn't Jon just announced Roland00 - 26/07/2011 02:51:07 AM 1743 Views
Something I totally missed first time through Werthead - 14/07/2011 09:40:33 AM 2126 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through Cannoli - 16/07/2011 01:24:23 AM 2051 Views
Yep, that's what he said/thought A Deathwatch Guard - 17/07/2011 05:02:32 AM 1861 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through Jessie - 23/07/2011 04:14:38 PM 1703 Views
Well that brings new meaning Roland00 - 26/07/2011 02:53:18 AM 1632 Views
I'm still not fully done, but about the Reek chapters... fionwe1987 - 14/07/2011 04:05:29 PM 1864 Views
Agreed ironclad - 14/07/2011 06:18:15 PM 1877 Views
There's another... fionwe1987 - 14/07/2011 07:16:11 PM 1679 Views
There's that... Legolas - 17/07/2011 01:12:33 AM 1727 Views
It's worse than that... fionwe1987 - 17/07/2011 01:26:50 AM 1768 Views
Torture is wrong, and those chapters kinda proved it. *NM* Roland00 - 26/07/2011 02:53:55 AM 943 Views
GRRM completely shit the bed on Jon's arc within this book. That's the truth. Libby - 16/07/2011 12:51:08 AM 1900 Views
Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) Variant - 16/07/2011 08:11:30 AM 1866 Views
Re: Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) Zaphod - 17/07/2011 01:02:10 AM 1796 Views
Personally, I felt 'A Feast for Crows' was not only better written but more condensed. Libby - 17/07/2011 11:15:58 AM 1841 Views
Summed up like that there is no way to disagree with what you said ironclad - 17/07/2011 11:33:01 AM 1837 Views
You put words to my thoughts exactly. Sir Tybalt - 18/08/2011 09:17:09 PM 1711 Views
It should be re-titled A Jump with Sharks Tom - 17/07/2011 06:00:37 PM 1908 Views
Publishers are more interested in the bottom line. Werthead - 18/07/2011 12:31:56 AM 1694 Views
Sadly, I am likely overestimating the intelligence of the readers. Tom - 18/07/2011 03:05:12 AM 1912 Views
I felt bummed by Sanderson's new series. everynametaken - 18/07/2011 05:25:09 AM 1764 Views
I bought that book but have yet to read it. Tom - 18/07/2011 01:09:15 PM 1697 Views
Re: I bought that book but have yet to read it. Zach - 20/07/2011 06:45:46 AM 1721 Views
You might like this quote from House of Leaves by Mark Z Danielewski. heartbreak - 11/08/2011 03:42:05 PM 1792 Views
I'm afraid I have to agree with what seems to be the majority opinion... Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:35:47 PM 1854 Views
And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading? Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:39:15 PM 1752 Views
Re: And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading? samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:17:41 AM 1890 Views
Yeah, I agree. Stephen - 18/07/2011 05:59:58 PM 1797 Views
The book really shows it is AFFC part 2 Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:00:07 AM 1766 Views
No doubt, much like readers would've been more forgiving of aFfC if it'd been two years after SoS. Legolas - 26/07/2011 11:28:43 PM 1803 Views
Am I The Only One In Love With Arya's Chapters? *spoilers maybe* samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:22:00 AM 1791 Views
I enjoyed them, very solid chapters. Libby - 18/07/2011 12:50:43 PM 1810 Views
Unlike others, I won't start a separate thread to express my thoughts Larry - 19/07/2011 11:21:17 AM 1932 Views
Yeah, I wished there was a way to move them in here! ironclad - 19/07/2011 01:42:51 PM 1674 Views
Me too... but going and complaining about them seems so lame, too. Legolas - 19/07/2011 07:34:47 PM 1676 Views
I agree with Jens, good balanced review. *NM* Legolas - 19/07/2011 07:50:13 PM 930 Views
I think you let him off too easily. Tom - 20/07/2011 04:19:07 AM 1824 Views
It might be that I expected even more of a longeur than what happened Larry - 20/07/2011 05:24:50 PM 1763 Views
Your review is a little too generous (in my opinion) Libby - 20/07/2011 06:57:45 AM 1986 Views
I find myself both depressed and let down... Zach - 20/07/2011 06:37:16 AM 2094 Views
Am I the only one who really likes... ironclad - 20/07/2011 06:04:00 PM 1877 Views
yeh, he is nice... *NM* aragornital - 20/07/2011 06:20:13 PM 924 Views
Davos is probably my favourite Stephen - 20/07/2011 09:51:03 PM 1607 Views
I have to disagree in regards to Penny, she's a plot device and an annoying one at that. Variant - 21/07/2011 01:15:33 AM 1912 Views
Re: I have to disagree in regards to Penny, she's a plot device and an annoying one at that. Timthetrolloc - 21/07/2011 09:33:00 AM 1733 Views
The six bodies fired by the trebuchet Stephen - 20/07/2011 10:36:16 PM 1777 Views
Yes, I was confused by that too. Legolas - 20/07/2011 10:53:35 PM 1692 Views
Probably pale mare victims. Seige warfare via plague Urza - 20/07/2011 11:23:10 PM 1744 Views
Yes, I considered that as well... Legolas - 20/07/2011 11:48:32 PM 1719 Views
Have Quentyn's two mates already been sent off a this point? ironclad - 21/07/2011 02:03:15 PM 1761 Views
That could be it. *NM* Stephen - 21/07/2011 01:43:16 PM 837 Views
It's not six bodies, it's six trebuchets throwing corpses instead of stones DomA - 27/07/2011 01:03:51 AM 1830 Views
That's how I read it as well. Six trebuchets opening up. *NM* Michael - 11/08/2011 12:19:09 PM 922 Views
Stannis ironclad - 21/07/2011 08:43:40 AM 1732 Views
It's entirely possible Stannis was killed Tom - 21/07/2011 02:09:10 PM 1822 Views
I highly doubt he's dead A Deathwatch Guard - 21/07/2011 07:29:59 PM 1760 Views
The bluff makes the most sense: if the Boltons beat Stannis, why does he ask for Theon & Jeyne? Cannoli - 22/07/2011 12:01:30 AM 1829 Views
Yeah... Urza - 22/07/2011 12:27:53 AM 1721 Views
The letter sounded like the ravings of a psychopath loosing control DomA - 27/07/2011 02:56:21 AM 1868 Views
The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. Libby - 21/07/2011 10:43:43 PM 1831 Views
Re: The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. Werthead - 22/07/2011 05:42:13 PM 1898 Views
Alternatively.. fionwe1987 - 22/07/2011 09:13:46 PM 1727 Views
Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? Tom - 22/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 1763 Views
None of them. Werthead - 22/07/2011 06:25:19 PM 1696 Views
Is that personal opinion or based on something Martin said? *NM* Tom - 22/07/2011 06:37:57 PM 928 Views
Opinion Werthead - 22/07/2011 07:43:16 PM 1724 Views
Regardless of whether or not they actually get involved, their existence (or not) is signficant. Tom - 23/07/2011 02:17:48 AM 1582 Views
I think there are some god's, just given different names. Same with the magic. fionwe1987 - 22/07/2011 09:24:51 PM 1700 Views
Lose the apostrophe in the subject line. Then: on what basis do you assume this? Tom - 23/07/2011 02:28:49 AM 1775 Views
You might want to stop wasting time correcting others typos. As for the gods... fionwe1987 - 23/07/2011 04:53:59 AM 1625 Views
You might want to stop making them. Particularly glaring ones like that. Tom - 23/07/2011 05:01:03 AM 1806 Views
A typo can't be "glaring"... fionwe1987 - 23/07/2011 08:08:51 AM 1683 Views
Sure it can. Glaring: conspicuous or obvious. Tom - 23/07/2011 03:52:57 PM 1698 Views
Morality stems from god? A Deathwatch Guard - 22/07/2011 10:47:59 PM 1693 Views
Of course it does Tom - 23/07/2011 02:26:50 AM 1685 Views
On second thought, let's address the issue directly. Tom - 23/07/2011 05:14:59 AM 1763 Views
Perhaps... A Deathwatch Guard - 24/07/2011 07:03:24 PM 1710 Views
Its simple... Urza - 24/07/2011 07:37:11 PM 1699 Views
I disagree... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 04:10:04 AM 1787 Views
Bullshit. Tom - 25/07/2011 05:44:41 AM 1654 Views
Re: Bullshit. fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 06:27:09 AM 1565 Views
The Seven probably has more power and influence than any other religion though. Werthead - 25/07/2011 07:51:59 PM 1605 Views
In Westeros, but I always got the feeling the Free Cities and other places didn't much care for them A Deathwatch Guard - 26/07/2011 10:53:45 PM 1712 Views
Westeros is the biggest coherent civilisation in the ASoIaF world. Werthead - 27/07/2011 12:56:21 AM 1755 Views
Some thoughts... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 04:54:05 AM 1675 Views
It's not an objective morality. Tom - 25/07/2011 05:41:33 AM 1671 Views
Its not that simple... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 06:21:39 AM 1728 Views
I don't disagree with most of what you said. I just reach a different conclusion. Tom - 25/07/2011 01:57:31 PM 1665 Views
Well... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 05:02:45 PM 1673 Views
How then do you deal with the Euthyphro dilemma? Tim - 16/08/2011 01:43:18 PM 1544 Views
Re: Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? aragornital - 25/07/2011 02:24:07 PM 1636 Views
Whats the best new POV Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:14:05 AM 1722 Views
Barristan Werthead - 26/07/2011 12:23:20 PM 1682 Views
Didn't Aeron "Damphair" Greyjoy also only have 2 POVs Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:56:57 PM 1754 Views
Agreed. *NM* Legolas - 26/07/2011 11:33:11 PM 962 Views
thirded. Jessie - 27/07/2011 04:16:26 PM 1546 Views
Absolutely *NM* ironclad - 29/07/2011 02:31:54 AM 1011 Views
Things you missed till they were pointed out via others or via a reread Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:23:53 AM 1874 Views
A bit. Werthead - 26/07/2011 12:32:32 PM 1836 Views
Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:46:54 PM 1774 Views
Re: Werthead - 27/07/2011 12:43:43 AM 1710 Views
Martin doesn't have to do anything Roland00 - 27/07/2011 01:33:36 AM 1779 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything DomA - 27/07/2011 04:38:19 AM 1682 Views
The crone who prophesied the stallion who mounts the world saw the stallions face Roland00 - 27/07/2011 05:13:28 AM 1803 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything aragornital - 27/07/2011 08:58:55 AM 1608 Views
Re: DomA - 27/07/2011 04:27:18 AM 1795 Views
I like your theory. Jessie - 27/07/2011 04:35:22 PM 1800 Views
Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. Legolas - 26/07/2011 11:32:18 PM 1790 Views
Re: Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. Roland00 - 27/07/2011 02:00:42 AM 1689 Views
Eh? Elaine - 29/07/2011 04:44:17 PM 1800 Views
This is complicated. Werthead - 31/07/2011 10:43:15 PM 2009 Views
Wait...a woman crowned for beauty was the victorious mystery knight? Tom - 01/08/2011 03:00:49 AM 1704 Views
It is believed the Knight of the Laughing Tree is one of two people Roland00 - 01/08/2011 04:47:21 AM 1738 Views
Yup. Werthead - 02/08/2011 12:03:26 AM 1645 Views
Also... fionwe1987 - 02/08/2011 07:17:43 AM 1734 Views
And yet, my huge brain figures it out Elaine - 04/08/2011 04:20:06 PM 1704 Views
I've read this scene yesterday and I missed this... aragornital - 02/08/2011 07:55:35 AM 1732 Views
Allow me Elaine - 05/08/2011 02:14:15 PM 1590 Views
thanks *NM* aragornital - 07/08/2011 07:28:21 AM 911 Views
I thought this was pretty clear HousealThor - 07/08/2011 05:18:54 PM 1606 Views
Hizdahr a Harpy? Innocent or Not? Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:36:56 AM 2006 Views
Interesting idea. Werthead - 26/07/2011 12:25:11 PM 1817 Views
Re: Interesting idea. Jessie - 27/07/2011 04:25:02 PM 1737 Views
What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? Roland00 - 26/07/2011 04:13:27 PM 1729 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? Werthead - 27/07/2011 12:49:52 AM 1937 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? DomA - 27/07/2011 03:49:18 AM 1842 Views
Re: A Dance with Dragons discussion thread jwk - 29/07/2011 01:42:57 AM 1851 Views
Okay. I suck. jwk - 29/07/2011 01:50:56 AM 1645 Views
Let me rephrase that... jwk - 29/07/2011 01:54:07 AM 1631 Views
Jon Snow is definitely Azor Ahai. Kotagg - 29/07/2011 07:31:17 PM 2241 Views
Hmm ironclad - 31/07/2011 01:52:03 PM 2000 Views
you are correct Jim - 31/07/2011 11:08:39 PM 1704 Views
Yup. Werthead - 31/07/2011 10:49:34 PM 1561 Views
But Shireen is a dragon... fionwe1987 - 01/08/2011 12:22:16 AM 1744 Views
I'm uncertain about that Larry - 01/08/2011 05:35:18 AM 1709 Views
True, but I wouldn't read too much into that. Werthead - 01/08/2011 11:42:29 PM 1984 Views
Where did he say that? fionwe1987 - 02/08/2011 07:18:39 AM 1837 Views
In interviews Werthead - 02/08/2011 02:21:28 PM 1818 Views
A little thought about Jon... aragornital - 02/08/2011 08:02:34 AM 1870 Views
Excellent point. Werthead - 02/08/2011 02:22:22 PM 1792 Views
Am I the only one who thinks... The Doctor - 09/08/2011 05:16:46 PM 1819 Views
I think Martin's gonna stick to Bran being the only one who does that ironclad - 10/08/2011 09:25:12 AM 1739 Views
It's possible, the problem is Jon's warging skill isn't all that well developed. Libby - 10/08/2011 10:53:32 PM 1713 Views
Anyone have any thoughts as to the purpose of Arya's storyline? Chas - 14/08/2011 06:28:09 PM 1719 Views
She's being trained as an assassin, so the question is who is she going to kill? Werthead - 16/08/2011 01:43:12 AM 1653 Views
Jon? Sir Tybalt - 18/08/2011 09:59:03 PM 1696 Views
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