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On second thought, let's address the issue directly. Tom Send a noteboard - 23/07/2011 05:14:59 AM
Of course morality stems from God (or rather, from an apprehension of a divine order, be it a God, multiple gods, a mechanism by which the universe works or something else along those lines).

The true atheist is essentially denying that the universe has meaning. By extension, any decision that any individual makes is completely arbitrary. Let's say you get one million people together and every single one says that murder is wrong. It's still arbitrary because the universe has no meaning. Someone could decide that all property is theft, and steal from others left and right, but believe that all murder (including abortion) is wrong. With no meaning to the universe, one can have a million moralities and no means by which any morality could be judged in any objective sense whatsoever.

The Greek sophistries that tried to say that immoral behavior would lead to a person being ostracized, or that pretending to be good while in fact being evil would still not work, have been proven false quite resoundingly by history. What contemporary consensus terms "immoral" tends to succeed quite well in many circumstances.

By contrast, if there is some meaning to the universe, then actions which lead to negative consequences are objectively bad, and so if certain behavior leads to suffering on the part of the person who commits such behavior (whether through divine punishment, the laws of karma, personal distancing from God, or otherwise) then that behavior is to be avoided. The universe itself provides an objective standard by its operation, much like the laws of physics do. "Thou shalt not kill" could be considered as logical as "Don't jump out that window - we're on the 75th floor".

The real problem that remains is determining just WHAT the universe's mechanics are. We all know that al Qaeda members think that God wants them to kill other people, and they expect they will be rewarded for doing so. Other people think that God does NOT want other people killed, and the al Qaeda people will be punished. Because we have no way of measuring if (or how) a terrorist, for example, was punished or rewarded in an afterlife (if such exists), it is impossible to objectively ascertain what is moral and what is immoral. However, if such an arbiter exists then such objectivity is possible (but outside our ability to know it).

How all this relates to Martin is that, if, for example, there is a Many-Faced God, then Arya's assassinations in his name might be rewarded, and as such they would constitute moral behavior. Sure, by most any rational standard which we would apply to the world we live in, assassination is generally bad, but the point is that we cannot apply real-world morality to a fake world unless we understand, metaphysically, how that world works.
Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.

ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius

Ummaka qinnassa nīk!

*MySmiley*
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A Dance with Dragons discussion thread - 11/07/2011 10:48:23 PM 6512 Views
Okay, first impressions. Basically spoiler-free, I suppose. - 11/07/2011 11:40:31 PM 2074 Views
I have it! *NM* - 12/07/2011 05:42:27 AM 1119 Views
A general question to get the discussion started: will two more books be enough? - 12/07/2011 02:22:52 PM 2278 Views
A very good question *major spoilers, then* - 12/07/2011 02:55:05 PM 2246 Views
Oh, come on. If anyone can do it, Martin can. - 15/07/2011 03:48:27 AM 1925 Views
It'll be tight. - 12/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 2242 Views
No but I think 3 will be possible - 26/07/2011 03:15:02 AM 2052 Views
what is Purple Wedding? *NM* - 27/07/2011 08:37:04 AM 1016 Views
Joffrey and Margaery wedding - 27/07/2011 04:26:04 PM 2091 Views
Hero of the book? - 12/07/2011 10:12:02 PM 2387 Views
Lord Manderly gets my vote. - 12/07/2011 10:41:19 PM 2179 Views
Re: Hero of the book? - 12/07/2011 10:43:20 PM 2049 Views
Re: Hero of the book? - 12/07/2011 11:50:29 PM 2049 Views
Ohh, so that was what that was about. - 17/07/2011 07:08:19 PM 2077 Views
That's what I thought too. - 25/07/2011 01:48:50 AM 2082 Views
Victorian Greyjoy = Hero of the book *NM* - 21/07/2011 06:20:25 AM 1195 Views
Asshole of the book? - 12/07/2011 10:46:10 PM 2254 Views
Agreed. - 12/07/2011 11:18:07 PM 2188 Views
Yeah, little doubt there. - 17/07/2011 07:09:53 PM 2033 Views
Seriously... - 18/07/2011 03:07:47 AM 2029 Views
Daenerys Targaryen & lifetime achievement award to Lord Rickard Stark - 17/08/2011 12:38:40 AM 1975 Views
Idiot of the book. - 12/07/2011 11:21:51 PM 2288 Views
lol yep, definitely *NM* - 13/07/2011 08:12:42 AM 1126 Views
Re: Idiot of the book. - 17/07/2011 12:42:20 AM 2156 Views
Wait... no she doesn't! - 17/07/2011 01:29:52 AM 2049 Views
She thinks both - 18/07/2011 12:22:59 AM 1986 Views
So... - 17/07/2011 07:18:24 PM 2012 Views
No, it's him. - 18/07/2011 12:25:33 AM 1996 Views
Is there any hot sex scenes? I won't be able to read it for a while *NM* - 13/07/2011 02:35:49 PM 1196 Views
One or two, but not all that long ones *NM* - 13/07/2011 02:57:12 PM 1160 Views
Great Ending - 14/07/2011 01:21:53 AM 2283 Views
Really? - 14/07/2011 09:36:01 AM 2213 Views
Re: Really? - 14/07/2011 09:38:34 AM 1865 Views
Re: Great Ending - 18/07/2011 02:05:00 AM 2007 Views
YES! - 14/07/2011 02:38:48 AM 1848 Views
Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply - 16/07/2011 07:27:43 PM 2021 Views
Re: Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply - 17/07/2011 12:45:52 AM 1996 Views
I don't know what to think... (spoiler) - 14/07/2011 08:59:39 AM 2216 Views
Probably not. - 14/07/2011 09:19:03 AM 2191 Views
Re: Probably not. - 14/07/2011 03:57:55 PM 2038 Views
I think the two are mixed up. - 14/07/2011 11:23:06 PM 2101 Views
Re: I think the two are mixed up. - 18/07/2011 02:10:29 AM 1952 Views
What made least sense for me as far as that is concerned... - 14/07/2011 11:51:20 AM 2096 Views
They didn't. - 14/07/2011 11:24:53 PM 2127 Views
I see - 15/07/2011 08:28:09 AM 2044 Views
Didn't Jon just announced - 26/07/2011 02:51:07 AM 2009 Views
Something I totally missed first time through - 14/07/2011 09:40:33 AM 2399 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through - 16/07/2011 01:24:23 AM 2326 Views
Yep, that's what he said/thought - 17/07/2011 05:02:32 AM 2142 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through - 23/07/2011 04:14:38 PM 1977 Views
Well that brings new meaning - 26/07/2011 02:53:18 AM 1901 Views
I'm still not fully done, but about the Reek chapters... - 14/07/2011 04:05:29 PM 2127 Views
Agreed - 14/07/2011 06:18:15 PM 2140 Views
There's another... - 14/07/2011 07:16:11 PM 1952 Views
There's that... - 17/07/2011 01:12:33 AM 1998 Views
It's worse than that... - 17/07/2011 01:26:50 AM 2020 Views
Torture is wrong, and those chapters kinda proved it. *NM* - 26/07/2011 02:53:55 AM 1100 Views
Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) - 16/07/2011 08:11:30 AM 2139 Views
Re: Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) - 17/07/2011 01:02:10 AM 2082 Views
You put words to my thoughts exactly. - 18/08/2011 09:17:09 PM 1982 Views
It should be re-titled A Jump with Sharks - 17/07/2011 06:00:37 PM 2198 Views
Publishers are more interested in the bottom line. - 18/07/2011 12:31:56 AM 1967 Views
Sadly, I am likely overestimating the intelligence of the readers. - 18/07/2011 03:05:12 AM 2192 Views
I felt bummed by Sanderson's new series. - 18/07/2011 05:25:09 AM 2031 Views
I bought that book but have yet to read it. - 18/07/2011 01:09:15 PM 1979 Views
Re: I bought that book but have yet to read it. - 20/07/2011 06:45:46 AM 1992 Views
You might like this quote from House of Leaves by Mark Z Danielewski. - 11/08/2011 03:42:05 PM 2112 Views
I'm afraid I have to agree with what seems to be the majority opinion... - 17/07/2011 07:35:47 PM 2130 Views
And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading? - 17/07/2011 07:39:15 PM 2002 Views
Yeah, I agree. - 18/07/2011 05:59:58 PM 2051 Views
The book really shows it is AFFC part 2 - 26/07/2011 03:00:07 AM 2034 Views
Am I The Only One In Love With Arya's Chapters? *spoilers maybe* - 18/07/2011 02:22:00 AM 2036 Views
I enjoyed them, very solid chapters. - 18/07/2011 12:50:43 PM 2081 Views
Unlike others, I won't start a separate thread to express my thoughts - 19/07/2011 11:21:17 AM 2188 Views
Yeah, I wished there was a way to move them in here! - 19/07/2011 01:42:51 PM 1953 Views
Me too... but going and complaining about them seems so lame, too. - 19/07/2011 07:34:47 PM 1959 Views
I agree with Jens, good balanced review. *NM* - 19/07/2011 07:50:13 PM 1093 Views
I think you let him off too easily. - 20/07/2011 04:19:07 AM 2087 Views
Your review is a little too generous (in my opinion) - 20/07/2011 06:57:45 AM 2260 Views
I find myself both depressed and let down... - 20/07/2011 06:37:16 AM 2380 Views
Am I the only one who really likes... - 20/07/2011 06:04:00 PM 2209 Views
yeh, he is nice... *NM* - 20/07/2011 06:20:13 PM 1083 Views
Davos is probably my favourite - 20/07/2011 09:51:03 PM 1845 Views
The six bodies fired by the trebuchet - 20/07/2011 10:36:16 PM 2046 Views
Yes, I was confused by that too. - 20/07/2011 10:53:35 PM 2002 Views
Probably pale mare victims. Seige warfare via plague - 20/07/2011 11:23:10 PM 2035 Views
Yes, I considered that as well... - 20/07/2011 11:48:32 PM 1973 Views
Have Quentyn's two mates already been sent off a this point? - 21/07/2011 02:03:15 PM 2043 Views
That could be it. *NM* - 21/07/2011 01:43:16 PM 996 Views
Stannis - 21/07/2011 08:43:40 AM 2002 Views
It's entirely possible Stannis was killed - 21/07/2011 02:09:10 PM 2082 Views
I highly doubt he's dead - 21/07/2011 07:29:59 PM 2049 Views
The bluff makes the most sense: if the Boltons beat Stannis, why does he ask for Theon & Jeyne? - 22/07/2011 12:01:30 AM 2099 Views
Yeah... - 22/07/2011 12:27:53 AM 1985 Views
The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. - 21/07/2011 10:43:43 PM 2073 Views
Re: The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. - 22/07/2011 05:42:13 PM 2172 Views
Alternatively.. - 22/07/2011 09:13:46 PM 1999 Views
Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? - 22/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 2054 Views
None of them. - 22/07/2011 06:25:19 PM 1948 Views
Is that personal opinion or based on something Martin said? *NM* - 22/07/2011 06:37:57 PM 1090 Views
Opinion - 22/07/2011 07:43:16 PM 1990 Views
I think there are some god's, just given different names. Same with the magic. - 22/07/2011 09:24:51 PM 1973 Views
Lose the apostrophe in the subject line. Then: on what basis do you assume this? - 23/07/2011 02:28:49 AM 2012 Views
You might want to stop wasting time correcting others typos. As for the gods... - 23/07/2011 04:53:59 AM 1896 Views
You might want to stop making them. Particularly glaring ones like that. - 23/07/2011 05:01:03 AM 2073 Views
A typo can't be "glaring"... - 23/07/2011 08:08:51 AM 1948 Views
Sure it can. Glaring: conspicuous or obvious. - 23/07/2011 03:52:57 PM 1960 Views
Morality stems from god? - 22/07/2011 10:47:59 PM 1970 Views
Of course it does - 23/07/2011 02:26:50 AM 1941 Views
On second thought, let's address the issue directly. - 23/07/2011 05:14:59 AM 2050 Views
Perhaps... - 24/07/2011 07:03:24 PM 1979 Views
Its simple... - 24/07/2011 07:37:11 PM 1986 Views
I disagree... - 25/07/2011 04:10:04 AM 2040 Views
Bullshit. - 25/07/2011 05:44:41 AM 1924 Views
Re: Bullshit. - 25/07/2011 06:27:09 AM 1837 Views
Some thoughts... - 25/07/2011 04:54:05 AM 1947 Views
It's not an objective morality. - 25/07/2011 05:41:33 AM 1933 Views
Its not that simple... - 25/07/2011 06:21:39 AM 1995 Views
I don't disagree with most of what you said. I just reach a different conclusion. - 25/07/2011 01:57:31 PM 1927 Views
Well... - 25/07/2011 05:02:45 PM 1941 Views
How then do you deal with the Euthyphro dilemma? - 16/08/2011 01:43:18 PM 1805 Views
Re: Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? - 25/07/2011 02:24:07 PM 1871 Views
Whats the best new POV - 26/07/2011 03:14:05 AM 1992 Views
Barristan - 26/07/2011 12:23:20 PM 1961 Views
Didn't Aeron "Damphair" Greyjoy also only have 2 POVs - 26/07/2011 03:56:57 PM 2023 Views
Agreed. *NM* - 26/07/2011 11:33:11 PM 1126 Views
thirded. - 27/07/2011 04:16:26 PM 1833 Views
Absolutely *NM* - 29/07/2011 02:31:54 AM 1209 Views
Things you missed till they were pointed out via others or via a reread - 26/07/2011 03:23:53 AM 2136 Views
A bit. - 26/07/2011 12:32:32 PM 2093 Views
- 26/07/2011 03:46:54 PM 2050 Views
Re: - 27/07/2011 12:43:43 AM 1992 Views
Martin doesn't have to do anything - 27/07/2011 01:33:36 AM 2066 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything - 27/07/2011 04:38:19 AM 1934 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything - 27/07/2011 08:58:55 AM 1854 Views
Re: - 27/07/2011 04:27:18 AM 2057 Views
I like your theory. - 27/07/2011 04:35:22 PM 2074 Views
Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. - 26/07/2011 11:32:18 PM 2059 Views
Re: Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. - 27/07/2011 02:00:42 AM 1947 Views
Eh? - 29/07/2011 04:44:17 PM 2065 Views
This is complicated. - 31/07/2011 10:43:15 PM 2279 Views
Wait...a woman crowned for beauty was the victorious mystery knight? - 01/08/2011 03:00:49 AM 1958 Views
It is believed the Knight of the Laughing Tree is one of two people - 01/08/2011 04:47:21 AM 2020 Views
Yup. - 02/08/2011 12:03:26 AM 1896 Views
Also... - 02/08/2011 07:17:43 AM 1992 Views
And yet, my huge brain figures it out - 04/08/2011 04:20:06 PM 1975 Views
I've read this scene yesterday and I missed this... - 02/08/2011 07:55:35 AM 1986 Views
Allow me - 05/08/2011 02:14:15 PM 1845 Views
thanks *NM* - 07/08/2011 07:28:21 AM 1078 Views
I thought this was pretty clear - 07/08/2011 05:18:54 PM 1882 Views
Hizdahr a Harpy? Innocent or Not? - 26/07/2011 03:36:56 AM 2270 Views
Interesting idea. - 26/07/2011 12:25:11 PM 2072 Views
Re: Interesting idea. - 27/07/2011 04:25:02 PM 2000 Views
What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? - 26/07/2011 04:13:27 PM 1990 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? - 27/07/2011 12:49:52 AM 2199 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? - 27/07/2011 03:49:18 AM 2112 Views
Re: A Dance with Dragons discussion thread - 29/07/2011 01:42:57 AM 2185 Views
Okay. I suck. - 29/07/2011 01:50:56 AM 1923 Views
Let me rephrase that... - 29/07/2011 01:54:07 AM 1903 Views
Jon Snow is definitely Azor Ahai. - 29/07/2011 07:31:17 PM 2512 Views
Hmm - 31/07/2011 01:52:03 PM 2422 Views
you are correct - 31/07/2011 11:08:39 PM 1994 Views
Yup. - 31/07/2011 10:49:34 PM 1823 Views
But Shireen is a dragon... - 01/08/2011 12:22:16 AM 2006 Views
I'm uncertain about that - 01/08/2011 05:35:18 AM 1978 Views
True, but I wouldn't read too much into that. - 01/08/2011 11:42:29 PM 2251 Views
Where did he say that? - 02/08/2011 07:18:39 AM 2125 Views
In interviews - 02/08/2011 02:21:28 PM 2082 Views
A little thought about Jon... - 02/08/2011 08:02:34 AM 2140 Views
Excellent point. - 02/08/2011 02:22:22 PM 2064 Views
Am I the only one who thinks... - 09/08/2011 05:16:46 PM 2093 Views
I think Martin's gonna stick to Bran being the only one who does that - 10/08/2011 09:25:12 AM 2160 Views
Anyone have any thoughts as to the purpose of Arya's storyline? - 14/08/2011 06:28:09 PM 2000 Views
She's being trained as an assassin, so the question is who is she going to kill? - 16/08/2011 01:43:12 AM 1934 Views
Jon? - 18/08/2011 09:59:03 PM 1985 Views

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