Of course morality stems from God (or rather, from an apprehension of a divine order, be it a God, multiple gods, a mechanism by which the universe works or something else along those lines).
The true atheist is essentially denying that the universe has meaning. By extension, any decision that any individual makes is completely arbitrary. Let's say you get one million people together and every single one says that murder is wrong. It's still arbitrary because the universe has no meaning. Someone could decide that all property is theft, and steal from others left and right, but believe that all murder (including abortion) is wrong. With no meaning to the universe, one can have a million moralities and no means by which any morality could be judged in any objective sense whatsoever.
The Greek sophistries that tried to say that immoral behavior would lead to a person being ostracized, or that pretending to be good while in fact being evil would still not work, have been proven false quite resoundingly by history. What contemporary consensus terms "immoral" tends to succeed quite well in many circumstances.
By contrast, if there is some meaning to the universe, then actions which lead to negative consequences are objectively bad, and so if certain behavior leads to suffering on the part of the person who commits such behavior (whether through divine punishment, the laws of karma, personal distancing from God, or otherwise) then that behavior is to be avoided. The universe itself provides an objective standard by its operation, much like the laws of physics do. "Thou shalt not kill" could be considered as logical as "Don't jump out that window - we're on the 75th floor".
The real problem that remains is determining just WHAT the universe's mechanics are. We all know that al Qaeda members think that God wants them to kill other people, and they expect they will be rewarded for doing so. Other people think that God does NOT want other people killed, and the al Qaeda people will be punished. Because we have no way of measuring if (or how) a terrorist, for example, was punished or rewarded in an afterlife (if such exists), it is impossible to objectively ascertain what is moral and what is immoral. However, if such an arbiter exists then such objectivity is possible (but outside our ability to know it).
How all this relates to Martin is that, if, for example, there is a Many-Faced God, then Arya's assassinations in his name might be rewarded, and as such they would constitute moral behavior. Sure, by most any rational standard which we would apply to the world we live in, assassination is generally bad, but the point is that we cannot apply real-world morality to a fake world unless we understand, metaphysically, how that world works.
The true atheist is essentially denying that the universe has meaning. By extension, any decision that any individual makes is completely arbitrary. Let's say you get one million people together and every single one says that murder is wrong. It's still arbitrary because the universe has no meaning. Someone could decide that all property is theft, and steal from others left and right, but believe that all murder (including abortion) is wrong. With no meaning to the universe, one can have a million moralities and no means by which any morality could be judged in any objective sense whatsoever.
The Greek sophistries that tried to say that immoral behavior would lead to a person being ostracized, or that pretending to be good while in fact being evil would still not work, have been proven false quite resoundingly by history. What contemporary consensus terms "immoral" tends to succeed quite well in many circumstances.
By contrast, if there is some meaning to the universe, then actions which lead to negative consequences are objectively bad, and so if certain behavior leads to suffering on the part of the person who commits such behavior (whether through divine punishment, the laws of karma, personal distancing from God, or otherwise) then that behavior is to be avoided. The universe itself provides an objective standard by its operation, much like the laws of physics do. "Thou shalt not kill" could be considered as logical as "Don't jump out that window - we're on the 75th floor".
The real problem that remains is determining just WHAT the universe's mechanics are. We all know that al Qaeda members think that God wants them to kill other people, and they expect they will be rewarded for doing so. Other people think that God does NOT want other people killed, and the al Qaeda people will be punished. Because we have no way of measuring if (or how) a terrorist, for example, was punished or rewarded in an afterlife (if such exists), it is impossible to objectively ascertain what is moral and what is immoral. However, if such an arbiter exists then such objectivity is possible (but outside our ability to know it).
How all this relates to Martin is that, if, for example, there is a Many-Faced God, then Arya's assassinations in his name might be rewarded, and as such they would constitute moral behavior. Sure, by most any rational standard which we would apply to the world we live in, assassination is generally bad, but the point is that we cannot apply real-world morality to a fake world unless we understand, metaphysically, how that world works.
Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
A Dance with Dragons discussion thread
- 11/07/2011 10:48:23 PM
6573 Views
A general question to get the discussion started: will two more books be enough?
- 12/07/2011 02:22:52 PM
2333 Views
It'll be tight.
- 12/07/2011 04:32:39 PM
2333 Views
What does "resurrection-as-PWWP Jon" mean? Got it - Prince Who Was Promised!
- 18/08/2011 08:59:44 PM
2203 Views
No but I think 3 will be possible
- 26/07/2011 03:15:02 AM
2115 Views
Hero of the book?
- 12/07/2011 10:12:02 PM
2440 Views
Barristan should be renamed as Ser Grandfather, you do not mess with Ser Grandfather *NM*
- 26/07/2011 03:32:09 AM
1225 Views
Asshole of the book?
- 12/07/2011 10:46:10 PM
2324 Views
Agreed.
- 12/07/2011 11:18:07 PM
2274 Views
Seconded. He'd probably make my short list of Assholes of the Series to date. *NM*
- 12/07/2011 11:25:04 PM
1101 Views
Daenerys Targaryen & lifetime achievement award to Lord Rickard Stark
- 17/08/2011 12:38:40 AM
2027 Views
Idiot of the book.
- 12/07/2011 11:21:51 PM
2353 Views
I think readers are being too hard on Quentyn, If anything I think Doran derserves more mocking.
- 17/07/2011 01:09:35 AM
2509 Views
Is there any hot sex scenes? I won't be able to read it for a while *NM*
- 13/07/2011 02:35:49 PM
1239 Views
YES!
- 14/07/2011 02:38:48 AM
1910 Views
- 14/07/2011 02:38:48 AM
1910 Views
I don't know what to think... (spoiler)
- 14/07/2011 08:59:39 AM
2279 Views
Probably not.
- 14/07/2011 09:19:03 AM
2260 Views
Re: Probably not.
- 14/07/2011 03:57:55 PM
2103 Views
What made least sense for me as far as that is concerned...
- 14/07/2011 11:51:20 AM
2149 Views
Something I totally missed first time through
- 14/07/2011 09:40:33 AM
2479 Views
I'm still not fully done, but about the Reek chapters...
- 14/07/2011 04:05:29 PM
2185 Views
GRRM completely shit the bed on Jon's arc within this book. That's the truth.
- 16/07/2011 12:51:08 AM
2255 Views
Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers)
- 16/07/2011 08:11:30 AM
2197 Views
Personally, I felt 'A Feast for Crows' was not only better written but more condensed.
- 17/07/2011 11:15:58 AM
2196 Views
Summed up like that there is no way to disagree with what you said
- 17/07/2011 11:33:01 AM
2185 Views
It should be re-titled A Jump with Sharks
- 17/07/2011 06:00:37 PM
2268 Views
Publishers are more interested in the bottom line.
- 18/07/2011 12:31:56 AM
2049 Views
Sadly, I am likely overestimating the intelligence of the readers.
- 18/07/2011 03:05:12 AM
2284 Views
I felt bummed by Sanderson's new series.
- 18/07/2011 05:25:09 AM
2107 Views
You might like this quote from House of Leaves by Mark Z Danielewski.
- 11/08/2011 03:42:05 PM
2182 Views
I'm afraid I have to agree with what seems to be the majority opinion...
- 17/07/2011 07:35:47 PM
2167 Views
And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading?
- 17/07/2011 07:39:15 PM
2059 Views
Re: And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading?
- 18/07/2011 02:17:41 AM
2241 Views
The book really shows it is AFFC part 2
- 26/07/2011 03:00:07 AM
2102 Views
No doubt, much like readers would've been more forgiving of aFfC if it'd been two years after SoS.
- 26/07/2011 11:28:43 PM
2107 Views
Am I The Only One In Love With Arya's Chapters? *spoilers maybe*
- 18/07/2011 02:22:00 AM
2101 Views
Unlike others, I won't start a separate thread to express my thoughts
- 19/07/2011 11:21:17 AM
2238 Views
- 19/07/2011 11:21:17 AM
2238 Views
Yeah, I wished there was a way to move them in here!
- 19/07/2011 01:42:51 PM
2001 Views
Me too... but going and complaining about them seems so lame, too.
- 19/07/2011 07:34:47 PM
2015 Views
I think you let him off too easily.
- 20/07/2011 04:19:07 AM
2148 Views
It might be that I expected even more of a longeur than what happened
- 20/07/2011 05:24:50 PM
2118 Views
Am I the only one who really likes...
- 20/07/2011 06:04:00 PM
2256 Views
I have to disagree in regards to Penny, she's a plot device and an annoying one at that.
- 21/07/2011 01:15:33 AM
2223 Views
Re: I have to disagree in regards to Penny, she's a plot device and an annoying one at that.
- 21/07/2011 09:33:00 AM
2055 Views
The six bodies fired by the trebuchet
- 20/07/2011 10:36:16 PM
2111 Views
Yes, I was confused by that too.
- 20/07/2011 10:53:35 PM
2062 Views
Probably pale mare victims. Seige warfare via plague
- 20/07/2011 11:23:10 PM
2092 Views
It's not six bodies, it's six trebuchets throwing corpses instead of stones
- 27/07/2011 01:03:51 AM
2122 Views
Stannis
- 21/07/2011 08:43:40 AM
2052 Views
I highly doubt he's dead
- 21/07/2011 07:29:59 PM
2102 Views
The bluff makes the most sense: if the Boltons beat Stannis, why does he ask for Theon & Jeyne?
- 22/07/2011 12:01:30 AM
2160 Views
The letter sounded like the ravings of a psychopath loosing control
- 27/07/2011 02:56:21 AM
2199 Views
The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up.
- 21/07/2011 10:43:43 PM
2126 Views
Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world?
- 22/07/2011 04:32:39 PM
2097 Views
None of them.
- 22/07/2011 06:25:19 PM
2004 Views
Is that personal opinion or based on something Martin said? *NM*
- 22/07/2011 06:37:57 PM
1123 Views
Opinion
- 22/07/2011 07:43:16 PM
2050 Views
Regardless of whether or not they actually get involved, their existence (or not) is signficant.
- 23/07/2011 02:17:48 AM
1910 Views
I think there are some god's, just given different names. Same with the magic.
- 22/07/2011 09:24:51 PM
2018 Views
Lose the apostrophe in the subject line. Then: on what basis do you assume this?
- 23/07/2011 02:28:49 AM
2068 Views
You might want to stop wasting time correcting others typos. As for the gods...
- 23/07/2011 04:53:59 AM
1959 Views
You might want to stop wasting time correcting others typos. As for the gods...
- 23/07/2011 04:53:59 AM
1959 Views
You might want to stop making them. Particularly glaring ones like that.
- 23/07/2011 05:01:03 AM
2134 Views
Morality stems from god?
- 22/07/2011 10:47:59 PM
2022 Views
On second thought, let's address the issue directly.
- 23/07/2011 05:14:59 AM
2119 Views
Perhaps...
- 24/07/2011 07:03:24 PM
2026 Views
Its simple...
- 24/07/2011 07:37:11 PM
2047 Views
I disagree...
- 25/07/2011 04:10:04 AM
2091 Views
Bullshit.
- 25/07/2011 05:44:41 AM
1973 Views
The Seven probably has more power and influence than any other religion though.
- 25/07/2011 07:51:59 PM
1920 Views
In Westeros, but I always got the feeling the Free Cities and other places didn't much care for them
- 26/07/2011 10:53:45 PM
2066 Views
Westeros is the biggest coherent civilisation in the ASoIaF world.
- 27/07/2011 12:56:21 AM
2069 Views
Some thoughts...
- 25/07/2011 04:54:05 AM
2026 Views
It's not an objective morality.
- 25/07/2011 05:41:33 AM
1993 Views
Its not that simple...
- 25/07/2011 06:21:39 AM
2057 Views
I don't disagree with most of what you said. I just reach a different conclusion.
- 25/07/2011 01:57:31 PM
1981 Views
Whats the best new POV
- 26/07/2011 03:14:05 AM
2046 Views
Things you missed till they were pointed out via others or via a reread
- 26/07/2011 03:23:53 AM
2185 Views
A bit.
- 26/07/2011 12:32:32 PM
2148 Views
- 26/07/2011 03:46:54 PM
2102 Views
- 26/07/2011 03:46:54 PM
2102 Views
Re:
- 27/07/2011 12:43:43 AM
2065 Views
- 27/07/2011 12:43:43 AM
2065 Views
Martin doesn't have to do anything
- 27/07/2011 01:33:36 AM
2132 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything
- 27/07/2011 04:38:19 AM
1982 Views
The crone who prophesied the stallion who mounts the world saw the stallions face
- 27/07/2011 05:13:28 AM
2132 Views
Eh?
- 29/07/2011 04:44:17 PM
2128 Views
This is complicated.
- 31/07/2011 10:43:15 PM
2336 Views
Wait...a woman crowned for beauty was the victorious mystery knight?
- 01/08/2011 03:00:49 AM
2005 Views
It is believed the Knight of the Laughing Tree is one of two people
- 01/08/2011 04:47:21 AM
2083 Views
Hizdahr a Harpy? Innocent or Not?
- 26/07/2011 03:36:56 AM
2341 Views
What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads?
- 26/07/2011 04:13:27 PM
2051 Views
Re: A Dance with Dragons discussion thread
- 29/07/2011 01:42:57 AM
2249 Views
Jon Snow is definitely Azor Ahai.
- 29/07/2011 07:31:17 PM
2579 Views
Yup.
- 31/07/2011 10:49:34 PM
1913 Views
I'm uncertain about that
- 01/08/2011 05:35:18 AM
2035 Views
True, but I wouldn't read too much into that.
- 01/08/2011 11:42:29 PM
2312 Views
Am I the only one who thinks...
- 09/08/2011 05:16:46 PM
2161 Views
I think Martin's gonna stick to Bran being the only one who does that
- 10/08/2011 09:25:12 AM
2230 Views
It's possible, the problem is Jon's warging skill isn't all that well developed.
- 10/08/2011 10:53:32 PM
2012 Views
Anyone have any thoughts as to the purpose of Arya's storyline?
- 14/08/2011 06:28:09 PM
2066 Views
She's being trained as an assassin, so the question is who is she going to kill?
- 16/08/2011 01:43:12 AM
1982 Views

*NM*