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It should be re-titled A Jump with Sharks Tom Send a noteboard - 17/07/2011 06:00:37 PM
There is probably a lot of truth to the "we end up turning into our parents" cliché. When I tried to get my father to watch Lord of the Rings he said, "That's just silly. I'm not going to watch something that far-fetched."

As I get older, I find myself less able to enjoy fantasy, particularly of the more fantastic variety. More and more, I see that it's just silly, escapist and rapidly becoming synonymous with a class of over-educated underachievers who use it like a drug to just drop out of the real world for long stretches of time. Since actually becoming an adult, I have started very few fantasy series and come to hold in contempt most of what I read when I was in my teens and pre-teens (e.g., Wheel of Time). Aesthetically, stylistically and substantially, these books are usually shit. Rarely, I can ignore the limitations of genre fiction and indulge in a book or two as a diversion (e.g., the Mistborn trilogy).

However, I never really treated Martin as a full-fledged "fantasy genre" author. His books had realistic political intrigue, great plot twists, and the "no character is safe" reputation. They were also, thankfully, light on the fantasy elements. By and large, the world was composed of human beings who fought one another in a conflict that resembled the Wars of the Roses and in a world that resembled England, Wales and Scotland.

This book was a bridge too far for me. The fantasy elements have been blatantly thrown in, Deus ex machina style. Not only do we have wights and dragons, but now it seems that every third character is a warg, there are magic mists that transform people into zombies, lots of poorly described fake cultures (replete with the obligatory Arabic-style Q, tons of ae's, and too many names ending in -os or -is), self-aware trees, elves (or pixies, or whatever you want to call them), dead people coming back into the story, sorceresses and lots of other stupid shit. Martin stepped across the divide between "gritty political thriller in a believable alternate world" into "elves and fairies and pixies", and quite definitively.

His style has also been grating on me. He writes like an American, using American English conventions throughout most of the book, and then throws in Anglicisms without any sort of rhyme or reason, like using "arse" instead of "ass" (but note he still writes "color", "humor" and "dolor", the last in the utterly un-English "Dolorous Edd", which would properly be "Dolourous Edd") and continues to use (ad nauseam, actually) the terrible phrase "must needs", which is a tautological phrase to begin with - if one must do something, it is already of necessity - and in any event largely obsolete.

Added to this is a plot line that was boring as all hell. I found myself skimming, and skimming, and skimming, because the book was just that boring, rolling my eyes or gagging mentally a bit at another piece of tedious idiocy, then skimming more. I kept wondering when something was going to happen. I'm still waiting.

It is my conviction that, ten years from now, publishers will point to Robert Jordan and to George Martin when they tell authors, "We're not accepting series longer than three or four books unless you have the whole thing finished. These long series have a way of getting bogged down and losing their way. Look at Jordan, look at Martin."

I now have two unfinished fantasy series that I am reading to the end just by force of inertia and a sense of, "Well, I read through all of this so I might as well as find out how it all ends now." I will not start a third. Luckily, the Jordan series will (hopefully) soon be over and I can now banish Martin from my mind for another four years or so. The TV series, of course, has been decent so far. I suspect I will lose interest in it too, though, after the first four seasons or so.
Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.

ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius

Ummaka qinnassa nīk!

*MySmiley*
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A Dance with Dragons discussion thread - 11/07/2011 10:48:23 PM 6325 Views
Okay, first impressions. Basically spoiler-free, I suppose. - 11/07/2011 11:40:31 PM 1870 Views
I have it! *NM* - 12/07/2011 05:42:27 AM 1002 Views
A general question to get the discussion started: will two more books be enough? - 12/07/2011 02:22:52 PM 2082 Views
A very good question *major spoilers, then* - 12/07/2011 02:55:05 PM 2057 Views
Oh, come on. If anyone can do it, Martin can. - 15/07/2011 03:48:27 AM 1750 Views
It'll be tight. - 12/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 2052 Views
No but I think 3 will be possible - 26/07/2011 03:15:02 AM 1873 Views
what is Purple Wedding? *NM* - 27/07/2011 08:37:04 AM 884 Views
Joffrey and Margaery wedding - 27/07/2011 04:26:04 PM 1899 Views
Hero of the book? - 12/07/2011 10:12:02 PM 2198 Views
Lord Manderly gets my vote. - 12/07/2011 10:41:19 PM 2003 Views
Re: Hero of the book? - 12/07/2011 10:43:20 PM 1863 Views
Re: Hero of the book? - 12/07/2011 11:50:29 PM 1861 Views
Ohh, so that was what that was about. - 17/07/2011 07:08:19 PM 1894 Views
That's what I thought too. - 25/07/2011 01:48:50 AM 1901 Views
Victorian Greyjoy = Hero of the book *NM* - 21/07/2011 06:20:25 AM 1054 Views
Asshole of the book? - 12/07/2011 10:46:10 PM 2067 Views
Agreed. - 12/07/2011 11:18:07 PM 2003 Views
Yeah, little doubt there. - 17/07/2011 07:09:53 PM 1847 Views
Seriously... - 18/07/2011 03:07:47 AM 1824 Views
Daenerys Targaryen & lifetime achievement award to Lord Rickard Stark - 17/08/2011 12:38:40 AM 1768 Views
Idiot of the book. - 12/07/2011 11:21:51 PM 2101 Views
lol yep, definitely *NM* - 13/07/2011 08:12:42 AM 988 Views
Re: Idiot of the book. - 17/07/2011 12:42:20 AM 1941 Views
Wait... no she doesn't! - 17/07/2011 01:29:52 AM 1872 Views
She thinks both - 18/07/2011 12:22:59 AM 1801 Views
So... - 17/07/2011 07:18:24 PM 1819 Views
No, it's him. - 18/07/2011 12:25:33 AM 1808 Views
Is there any hot sex scenes? I won't be able to read it for a while *NM* - 13/07/2011 02:35:49 PM 1079 Views
One or two, but not all that long ones *NM* - 13/07/2011 02:57:12 PM 1027 Views
Great Ending - 14/07/2011 01:21:53 AM 2106 Views
Really? - 14/07/2011 09:36:01 AM 2026 Views
Re: Really? - 14/07/2011 09:38:34 AM 1683 Views
Re: Great Ending - 18/07/2011 02:05:00 AM 1832 Views
YES! - 14/07/2011 02:38:48 AM 1668 Views
Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply - 16/07/2011 07:27:43 PM 1829 Views
Re: Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply - 17/07/2011 12:45:52 AM 1788 Views
I don't know what to think... (spoiler) - 14/07/2011 08:59:39 AM 2023 Views
Probably not. - 14/07/2011 09:19:03 AM 2011 Views
Re: Probably not. - 14/07/2011 03:57:55 PM 1847 Views
I think the two are mixed up. - 14/07/2011 11:23:06 PM 1927 Views
Re: I think the two are mixed up. - 18/07/2011 02:10:29 AM 1766 Views
What made least sense for me as far as that is concerned... - 14/07/2011 11:51:20 AM 1893 Views
They didn't. - 14/07/2011 11:24:53 PM 1942 Views
I see - 15/07/2011 08:28:09 AM 1853 Views
Didn't Jon just announced - 26/07/2011 02:51:07 AM 1816 Views
Something I totally missed first time through - 14/07/2011 09:40:33 AM 2220 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through - 16/07/2011 01:24:23 AM 2136 Views
Yep, that's what he said/thought - 17/07/2011 05:02:32 AM 1951 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through - 23/07/2011 04:14:38 PM 1802 Views
Well that brings new meaning - 26/07/2011 02:53:18 AM 1716 Views
I'm still not fully done, but about the Reek chapters... - 14/07/2011 04:05:29 PM 1940 Views
Agreed - 14/07/2011 06:18:15 PM 1958 Views
There's another... - 14/07/2011 07:16:11 PM 1756 Views
There's that... - 17/07/2011 01:12:33 AM 1818 Views
It's worse than that... - 17/07/2011 01:26:50 AM 1842 Views
Torture is wrong, and those chapters kinda proved it. *NM* - 26/07/2011 02:53:55 AM 982 Views
Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) - 16/07/2011 08:11:30 AM 1950 Views
Re: Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) - 17/07/2011 01:02:10 AM 1876 Views
You put words to my thoughts exactly. - 18/08/2011 09:17:09 PM 1798 Views
It should be re-titled A Jump with Sharks - 17/07/2011 06:00:37 PM 2001 Views
Publishers are more interested in the bottom line. - 18/07/2011 12:31:56 AM 1781 Views
Sadly, I am likely overestimating the intelligence of the readers. - 18/07/2011 03:05:12 AM 1998 Views
I felt bummed by Sanderson's new series. - 18/07/2011 05:25:09 AM 1847 Views
I bought that book but have yet to read it. - 18/07/2011 01:09:15 PM 1790 Views
Re: I bought that book but have yet to read it. - 20/07/2011 06:45:46 AM 1803 Views
You might like this quote from House of Leaves by Mark Z Danielewski. - 11/08/2011 03:42:05 PM 1886 Views
I'm afraid I have to agree with what seems to be the majority opinion... - 17/07/2011 07:35:47 PM 1938 Views
And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading? - 17/07/2011 07:39:15 PM 1831 Views
Yeah, I agree. - 18/07/2011 05:59:58 PM 1880 Views
The book really shows it is AFFC part 2 - 26/07/2011 03:00:07 AM 1851 Views
Am I The Only One In Love With Arya's Chapters? *spoilers maybe* - 18/07/2011 02:22:00 AM 1865 Views
I enjoyed them, very solid chapters. - 18/07/2011 12:50:43 PM 1895 Views
Unlike others, I won't start a separate thread to express my thoughts - 19/07/2011 11:21:17 AM 2012 Views
Yeah, I wished there was a way to move them in here! - 19/07/2011 01:42:51 PM 1753 Views
Me too... but going and complaining about them seems so lame, too. - 19/07/2011 07:34:47 PM 1765 Views
I agree with Jens, good balanced review. *NM* - 19/07/2011 07:50:13 PM 966 Views
I think you let him off too easily. - 20/07/2011 04:19:07 AM 1898 Views
Your review is a little too generous (in my opinion) - 20/07/2011 06:57:45 AM 2063 Views
I find myself both depressed and let down... - 20/07/2011 06:37:16 AM 2185 Views
Am I the only one who really likes... - 20/07/2011 06:04:00 PM 1959 Views
yeh, he is nice... *NM* - 20/07/2011 06:20:13 PM 954 Views
Davos is probably my favourite - 20/07/2011 09:51:03 PM 1672 Views
The six bodies fired by the trebuchet - 20/07/2011 10:36:16 PM 1859 Views
Yes, I was confused by that too. - 20/07/2011 10:53:35 PM 1781 Views
Probably pale mare victims. Seige warfare via plague - 20/07/2011 11:23:10 PM 1829 Views
Yes, I considered that as well... - 20/07/2011 11:48:32 PM 1798 Views
Have Quentyn's two mates already been sent off a this point? - 21/07/2011 02:03:15 PM 1851 Views
That could be it. *NM* - 21/07/2011 01:43:16 PM 877 Views
Stannis - 21/07/2011 08:43:40 AM 1805 Views
It's entirely possible Stannis was killed - 21/07/2011 02:09:10 PM 1895 Views
I highly doubt he's dead - 21/07/2011 07:29:59 PM 1842 Views
The bluff makes the most sense: if the Boltons beat Stannis, why does he ask for Theon & Jeyne? - 22/07/2011 12:01:30 AM 1907 Views
Yeah... - 22/07/2011 12:27:53 AM 1798 Views
The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. - 21/07/2011 10:43:43 PM 1883 Views
Re: The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. - 22/07/2011 05:42:13 PM 1978 Views
Alternatively.. - 22/07/2011 09:13:46 PM 1808 Views
Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? - 22/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 1841 Views
None of them. - 22/07/2011 06:25:19 PM 1769 Views
Is that personal opinion or based on something Martin said? *NM* - 22/07/2011 06:37:57 PM 968 Views
Opinion - 22/07/2011 07:43:16 PM 1805 Views
I think there are some god's, just given different names. Same with the magic. - 22/07/2011 09:24:51 PM 1792 Views
Lose the apostrophe in the subject line. Then: on what basis do you assume this? - 23/07/2011 02:28:49 AM 1827 Views
You might want to stop wasting time correcting others typos. As for the gods... - 23/07/2011 04:53:59 AM 1708 Views
You might want to stop making them. Particularly glaring ones like that. - 23/07/2011 05:01:03 AM 1883 Views
A typo can't be "glaring"... - 23/07/2011 08:08:51 AM 1766 Views
Sure it can. Glaring: conspicuous or obvious. - 23/07/2011 03:52:57 PM 1778 Views
Morality stems from god? - 22/07/2011 10:47:59 PM 1779 Views
Of course it does - 23/07/2011 02:26:50 AM 1756 Views
On second thought, let's address the issue directly. - 23/07/2011 05:14:59 AM 1849 Views
Perhaps... - 24/07/2011 07:03:24 PM 1793 Views
Its simple... - 24/07/2011 07:37:11 PM 1779 Views
I disagree... - 25/07/2011 04:10:04 AM 1860 Views
Bullshit. - 25/07/2011 05:44:41 AM 1736 Views
Re: Bullshit. - 25/07/2011 06:27:09 AM 1643 Views
Some thoughts... - 25/07/2011 04:54:05 AM 1762 Views
It's not an objective morality. - 25/07/2011 05:41:33 AM 1751 Views
Its not that simple... - 25/07/2011 06:21:39 AM 1803 Views
I don't disagree with most of what you said. I just reach a different conclusion. - 25/07/2011 01:57:31 PM 1739 Views
Well... - 25/07/2011 05:02:45 PM 1750 Views
How then do you deal with the Euthyphro dilemma? - 16/08/2011 01:43:18 PM 1625 Views
Re: Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? - 25/07/2011 02:24:07 PM 1687 Views
Whats the best new POV - 26/07/2011 03:14:05 AM 1804 Views
Barristan - 26/07/2011 12:23:20 PM 1764 Views
Didn't Aeron "Damphair" Greyjoy also only have 2 POVs - 26/07/2011 03:56:57 PM 1847 Views
Agreed. *NM* - 26/07/2011 11:33:11 PM 999 Views
thirded. - 27/07/2011 04:16:26 PM 1637 Views
Absolutely *NM* - 29/07/2011 02:31:54 AM 1044 Views
Things you missed till they were pointed out via others or via a reread - 26/07/2011 03:23:53 AM 1948 Views
A bit. - 26/07/2011 12:32:32 PM 1914 Views
- 26/07/2011 03:46:54 PM 1862 Views
Re: - 27/07/2011 12:43:43 AM 1791 Views
Martin doesn't have to do anything - 27/07/2011 01:33:36 AM 1881 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything - 27/07/2011 04:38:19 AM 1755 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything - 27/07/2011 08:58:55 AM 1685 Views
Re: - 27/07/2011 04:27:18 AM 1863 Views
I like your theory. - 27/07/2011 04:35:22 PM 1881 Views
Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. - 26/07/2011 11:32:18 PM 1877 Views
Re: Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. - 27/07/2011 02:00:42 AM 1770 Views
Eh? - 29/07/2011 04:44:17 PM 1879 Views
This is complicated. - 31/07/2011 10:43:15 PM 2087 Views
Wait...a woman crowned for beauty was the victorious mystery knight? - 01/08/2011 03:00:49 AM 1788 Views
It is believed the Knight of the Laughing Tree is one of two people - 01/08/2011 04:47:21 AM 1828 Views
Yup. - 02/08/2011 12:03:26 AM 1722 Views
Also... - 02/08/2011 07:17:43 AM 1818 Views
And yet, my huge brain figures it out - 04/08/2011 04:20:06 PM 1793 Views
I've read this scene yesterday and I missed this... - 02/08/2011 07:55:35 AM 1810 Views
Allow me - 05/08/2011 02:14:15 PM 1669 Views
thanks *NM* - 07/08/2011 07:28:21 AM 948 Views
I thought this was pretty clear - 07/08/2011 05:18:54 PM 1692 Views
Hizdahr a Harpy? Innocent or Not? - 26/07/2011 03:36:56 AM 2093 Views
Interesting idea. - 26/07/2011 12:25:11 PM 1893 Views
Re: Interesting idea. - 27/07/2011 04:25:02 PM 1813 Views
What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? - 26/07/2011 04:13:27 PM 1808 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? - 27/07/2011 12:49:52 AM 2016 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? - 27/07/2011 03:49:18 AM 1918 Views
Re: A Dance with Dragons discussion thread - 29/07/2011 01:42:57 AM 1937 Views
Okay. I suck. - 29/07/2011 01:50:56 AM 1738 Views
Let me rephrase that... - 29/07/2011 01:54:07 AM 1716 Views
Jon Snow is definitely Azor Ahai. - 29/07/2011 07:31:17 PM 2321 Views
Hmm - 31/07/2011 01:52:03 PM 2090 Views
you are correct - 31/07/2011 11:08:39 PM 1818 Views
Yup. - 31/07/2011 10:49:34 PM 1636 Views
But Shireen is a dragon... - 01/08/2011 12:22:16 AM 1828 Views
I'm uncertain about that - 01/08/2011 05:35:18 AM 1806 Views
True, but I wouldn't read too much into that. - 01/08/2011 11:42:29 PM 2065 Views
Where did he say that? - 02/08/2011 07:18:39 AM 1932 Views
In interviews - 02/08/2011 02:21:28 PM 1899 Views
A little thought about Jon... - 02/08/2011 08:02:34 AM 1960 Views
Excellent point. - 02/08/2011 02:22:22 PM 1882 Views
Am I the only one who thinks... - 09/08/2011 05:16:46 PM 1903 Views
I think Martin's gonna stick to Bran being the only one who does that - 10/08/2011 09:25:12 AM 1823 Views
Anyone have any thoughts as to the purpose of Arya's storyline? - 14/08/2011 06:28:09 PM 1815 Views
She's being trained as an assassin, so the question is who is she going to kill? - 16/08/2011 01:43:12 AM 1747 Views
Jon? - 18/08/2011 09:59:03 PM 1786 Views

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