Active Users:538 Time:06/05/2026 12:16:12 AM
It should be re-titled A Jump with Sharks Tom Send a noteboard - 17/07/2011 06:00:37 PM
There is probably a lot of truth to the "we end up turning into our parents" cliché. When I tried to get my father to watch Lord of the Rings he said, "That's just silly. I'm not going to watch something that far-fetched."

As I get older, I find myself less able to enjoy fantasy, particularly of the more fantastic variety. More and more, I see that it's just silly, escapist and rapidly becoming synonymous with a class of over-educated underachievers who use it like a drug to just drop out of the real world for long stretches of time. Since actually becoming an adult, I have started very few fantasy series and come to hold in contempt most of what I read when I was in my teens and pre-teens (e.g., Wheel of Time). Aesthetically, stylistically and substantially, these books are usually shit. Rarely, I can ignore the limitations of genre fiction and indulge in a book or two as a diversion (e.g., the Mistborn trilogy).

However, I never really treated Martin as a full-fledged "fantasy genre" author. His books had realistic political intrigue, great plot twists, and the "no character is safe" reputation. They were also, thankfully, light on the fantasy elements. By and large, the world was composed of human beings who fought one another in a conflict that resembled the Wars of the Roses and in a world that resembled England, Wales and Scotland.

This book was a bridge too far for me. The fantasy elements have been blatantly thrown in, Deus ex machina style. Not only do we have wights and dragons, but now it seems that every third character is a warg, there are magic mists that transform people into zombies, lots of poorly described fake cultures (replete with the obligatory Arabic-style Q, tons of ae's, and too many names ending in -os or -is), self-aware trees, elves (or pixies, or whatever you want to call them), dead people coming back into the story, sorceresses and lots of other stupid shit. Martin stepped across the divide between "gritty political thriller in a believable alternate world" into "elves and fairies and pixies", and quite definitively.

His style has also been grating on me. He writes like an American, using American English conventions throughout most of the book, and then throws in Anglicisms without any sort of rhyme or reason, like using "arse" instead of "ass" (but note he still writes "color", "humor" and "dolor", the last in the utterly un-English "Dolorous Edd", which would properly be "Dolourous Edd") and continues to use (ad nauseam, actually) the terrible phrase "must needs", which is a tautological phrase to begin with - if one must do something, it is already of necessity - and in any event largely obsolete.

Added to this is a plot line that was boring as all hell. I found myself skimming, and skimming, and skimming, because the book was just that boring, rolling my eyes or gagging mentally a bit at another piece of tedious idiocy, then skimming more. I kept wondering when something was going to happen. I'm still waiting.

It is my conviction that, ten years from now, publishers will point to Robert Jordan and to George Martin when they tell authors, "We're not accepting series longer than three or four books unless you have the whole thing finished. These long series have a way of getting bogged down and losing their way. Look at Jordan, look at Martin."

I now have two unfinished fantasy series that I am reading to the end just by force of inertia and a sense of, "Well, I read through all of this so I might as well as find out how it all ends now." I will not start a third. Luckily, the Jordan series will (hopefully) soon be over and I can now banish Martin from my mind for another four years or so. The TV series, of course, has been decent so far. I suspect I will lose interest in it too, though, after the first four seasons or so.
Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.

ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius

Ummaka qinnassa nīk!

*MySmiley*
Reply to message
A Dance with Dragons discussion thread - 11/07/2011 10:48:23 PM 6701 Views
Okay, first impressions. Basically spoiler-free, I suppose. - 11/07/2011 11:40:31 PM 2248 Views
I have it! *NM* - 12/07/2011 05:42:27 AM 1215 Views
A general question to get the discussion started: will two more books be enough? - 12/07/2011 02:22:52 PM 2447 Views
A very good question *major spoilers, then* - 12/07/2011 02:55:05 PM 2406 Views
Oh, come on. If anyone can do it, Martin can. - 15/07/2011 03:48:27 AM 2116 Views
It'll be tight. - 12/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 2449 Views
No but I think 3 will be possible - 26/07/2011 03:15:02 AM 2216 Views
what is Purple Wedding? *NM* - 27/07/2011 08:37:04 AM 1095 Views
Joffrey and Margaery wedding - 27/07/2011 04:26:04 PM 2256 Views
Hero of the book? - 12/07/2011 10:12:02 PM 2546 Views
Lord Manderly gets my vote. - 12/07/2011 10:41:19 PM 2327 Views
Re: Hero of the book? - 12/07/2011 10:43:20 PM 2228 Views
Re: Hero of the book? - 12/07/2011 11:50:29 PM 2224 Views
Ohh, so that was what that was about. - 17/07/2011 07:08:19 PM 2278 Views
That's what I thought too. - 25/07/2011 01:48:50 AM 2243 Views
Victorian Greyjoy = Hero of the book *NM* - 21/07/2011 06:20:25 AM 1282 Views
Asshole of the book? - 12/07/2011 10:46:10 PM 2428 Views
Agreed. - 12/07/2011 11:18:07 PM 2376 Views
Yeah, little doubt there. - 17/07/2011 07:09:53 PM 2232 Views
Seriously... - 18/07/2011 03:07:47 AM 2199 Views
Daenerys Targaryen & lifetime achievement award to Lord Rickard Stark - 17/08/2011 12:38:40 AM 2143 Views
Idiot of the book. - 12/07/2011 11:21:51 PM 2458 Views
lol yep, definitely *NM* - 13/07/2011 08:12:42 AM 1215 Views
Re: Idiot of the book. - 17/07/2011 12:42:20 AM 2328 Views
Wait... no she doesn't! - 17/07/2011 01:29:52 AM 2207 Views
She thinks both - 18/07/2011 12:22:59 AM 2148 Views
So... - 17/07/2011 07:18:24 PM 2199 Views
No, it's him. - 18/07/2011 12:25:33 AM 2225 Views
Is there any hot sex scenes? I won't be able to read it for a while *NM* - 13/07/2011 02:35:49 PM 1293 Views
One or two, but not all that long ones *NM* - 13/07/2011 02:57:12 PM 1252 Views
Great Ending - 14/07/2011 01:21:53 AM 2446 Views
Really? - 14/07/2011 09:36:01 AM 2391 Views
Re: Really? - 14/07/2011 09:38:34 AM 2033 Views
Re: Great Ending - 18/07/2011 02:05:00 AM 2186 Views
YES! - 14/07/2011 02:38:48 AM 2007 Views
Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply - 16/07/2011 07:27:43 PM 2178 Views
Re: Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply - 17/07/2011 12:45:52 AM 2154 Views
I don't know what to think... (spoiler) - 14/07/2011 08:59:39 AM 2395 Views
Probably not. - 14/07/2011 09:19:03 AM 2352 Views
Re: Probably not. - 14/07/2011 03:57:55 PM 2202 Views
I think the two are mixed up. - 14/07/2011 11:23:06 PM 2275 Views
Re: I think the two are mixed up. - 18/07/2011 02:10:29 AM 2111 Views
What made least sense for me as far as that is concerned... - 14/07/2011 11:51:20 AM 2268 Views
They didn't. - 14/07/2011 11:24:53 PM 2309 Views
I see - 15/07/2011 08:28:09 AM 2229 Views
Didn't Jon just announced - 26/07/2011 02:51:07 AM 2155 Views
Something I totally missed first time through - 14/07/2011 09:40:33 AM 2583 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through - 16/07/2011 01:24:23 AM 2481 Views
Yep, that's what he said/thought - 17/07/2011 05:02:32 AM 2323 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through - 23/07/2011 04:14:38 PM 2125 Views
Well that brings new meaning - 26/07/2011 02:53:18 AM 2078 Views
I'm still not fully done, but about the Reek chapters... - 14/07/2011 04:05:29 PM 2310 Views
Agreed - 14/07/2011 06:18:15 PM 2305 Views
There's another... - 14/07/2011 07:16:11 PM 2113 Views
There's that... - 17/07/2011 01:12:33 AM 2161 Views
It's worse than that... - 17/07/2011 01:26:50 AM 2209 Views
Torture is wrong, and those chapters kinda proved it. *NM* - 26/07/2011 02:53:55 AM 1187 Views
Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) - 16/07/2011 08:11:30 AM 2301 Views
Re: Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) - 17/07/2011 01:02:10 AM 2227 Views
You put words to my thoughts exactly. - 18/08/2011 09:17:09 PM 2170 Views
It should be re-titled A Jump with Sharks - 17/07/2011 06:00:37 PM 2402 Views
Publishers are more interested in the bottom line. - 18/07/2011 12:31:56 AM 2166 Views
Sadly, I am likely overestimating the intelligence of the readers. - 18/07/2011 03:05:12 AM 2393 Views
I felt bummed by Sanderson's new series. - 18/07/2011 05:25:09 AM 2276 Views
I bought that book but have yet to read it. - 18/07/2011 01:09:15 PM 2126 Views
Re: I bought that book but have yet to read it. - 20/07/2011 06:45:46 AM 2171 Views
You might like this quote from House of Leaves by Mark Z Danielewski. - 11/08/2011 03:42:05 PM 2360 Views
I'm afraid I have to agree with what seems to be the majority opinion... - 17/07/2011 07:35:47 PM 2275 Views
And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading? - 17/07/2011 07:39:15 PM 2174 Views
Yeah, I agree. - 18/07/2011 05:59:58 PM 2216 Views
The book really shows it is AFFC part 2 - 26/07/2011 03:00:07 AM 2210 Views
Am I The Only One In Love With Arya's Chapters? *spoilers maybe* - 18/07/2011 02:22:00 AM 2219 Views
I enjoyed them, very solid chapters. - 18/07/2011 12:50:43 PM 2305 Views
Unlike others, I won't start a separate thread to express my thoughts - 19/07/2011 11:21:17 AM 2376 Views
Yeah, I wished there was a way to move them in here! - 19/07/2011 01:42:51 PM 2151 Views
Me too... but going and complaining about them seems so lame, too. - 19/07/2011 07:34:47 PM 2136 Views
I agree with Jens, good balanced review. *NM* - 19/07/2011 07:50:13 PM 1176 Views
I think you let him off too easily. - 20/07/2011 04:19:07 AM 2259 Views
Your review is a little too generous (in my opinion) - 20/07/2011 06:57:45 AM 2448 Views
I find myself both depressed and let down... - 20/07/2011 06:37:16 AM 2571 Views
Am I the only one who really likes... - 20/07/2011 06:04:00 PM 2359 Views
yeh, he is nice... *NM* - 20/07/2011 06:20:13 PM 1170 Views
Davos is probably my favourite - 20/07/2011 09:51:03 PM 2021 Views
The six bodies fired by the trebuchet - 20/07/2011 10:36:16 PM 2205 Views
Yes, I was confused by that too. - 20/07/2011 10:53:35 PM 2170 Views
Probably pale mare victims. Seige warfare via plague - 20/07/2011 11:23:10 PM 2182 Views
Yes, I considered that as well... - 20/07/2011 11:48:32 PM 2152 Views
Have Quentyn's two mates already been sent off a this point? - 21/07/2011 02:03:15 PM 2224 Views
That could be it. *NM* - 21/07/2011 01:43:16 PM 1082 Views
Stannis - 21/07/2011 08:43:40 AM 2160 Views
It's entirely possible Stannis was killed - 21/07/2011 02:09:10 PM 2216 Views
I highly doubt he's dead - 21/07/2011 07:29:59 PM 2208 Views
The bluff makes the most sense: if the Boltons beat Stannis, why does he ask for Theon & Jeyne? - 22/07/2011 12:01:30 AM 2253 Views
Yeah... - 22/07/2011 12:27:53 AM 2131 Views
The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. - 21/07/2011 10:43:43 PM 2281 Views
Re: The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. - 22/07/2011 05:42:13 PM 2326 Views
Alternatively.. - 22/07/2011 09:13:46 PM 2154 Views
Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? - 22/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 2210 Views
None of them. - 22/07/2011 06:25:19 PM 2111 Views
Is that personal opinion or based on something Martin said? *NM* - 22/07/2011 06:37:57 PM 1173 Views
Opinion - 22/07/2011 07:43:16 PM 2151 Views
I think there are some god's, just given different names. Same with the magic. - 22/07/2011 09:24:51 PM 2136 Views
Lose the apostrophe in the subject line. Then: on what basis do you assume this? - 23/07/2011 02:28:49 AM 2169 Views
You might want to stop wasting time correcting others typos. As for the gods... - 23/07/2011 04:53:59 AM 2070 Views
You might want to stop making them. Particularly glaring ones like that. - 23/07/2011 05:01:03 AM 2236 Views
A typo can't be "glaring"... - 23/07/2011 08:08:51 AM 2127 Views
Sure it can. Glaring: conspicuous or obvious. - 23/07/2011 03:52:57 PM 2123 Views
Morality stems from god? - 22/07/2011 10:47:59 PM 2123 Views
Of course it does - 23/07/2011 02:26:50 AM 2102 Views
On second thought, let's address the issue directly. - 23/07/2011 05:14:59 AM 2234 Views
Perhaps... - 24/07/2011 07:03:24 PM 2140 Views
Its simple... - 24/07/2011 07:37:11 PM 2139 Views
I disagree... - 25/07/2011 04:10:04 AM 2198 Views
Bullshit. - 25/07/2011 05:44:41 AM 2082 Views
Re: Bullshit. - 25/07/2011 06:27:09 AM 1993 Views
Some thoughts... - 25/07/2011 04:54:05 AM 2146 Views
It's not an objective morality. - 25/07/2011 05:41:33 AM 2095 Views
Its not that simple... - 25/07/2011 06:21:39 AM 2171 Views
I don't disagree with most of what you said. I just reach a different conclusion. - 25/07/2011 01:57:31 PM 2072 Views
Well... - 25/07/2011 05:02:45 PM 2096 Views
How then do you deal with the Euthyphro dilemma? - 16/08/2011 01:43:18 PM 1970 Views
Re: Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? - 25/07/2011 02:24:07 PM 2032 Views
Whats the best new POV - 26/07/2011 03:14:05 AM 2167 Views
Barristan - 26/07/2011 12:23:20 PM 2118 Views
Didn't Aeron "Damphair" Greyjoy also only have 2 POVs - 26/07/2011 03:56:57 PM 2222 Views
Agreed. *NM* - 26/07/2011 11:33:11 PM 1219 Views
thirded. - 27/07/2011 04:16:26 PM 2008 Views
Absolutely *NM* - 29/07/2011 02:31:54 AM 1289 Views
Things you missed till they were pointed out via others or via a reread - 26/07/2011 03:23:53 AM 2316 Views
A bit. - 26/07/2011 12:32:32 PM 2251 Views
- 26/07/2011 03:46:54 PM 2198 Views
Re: - 27/07/2011 12:43:43 AM 2192 Views
Martin doesn't have to do anything - 27/07/2011 01:33:36 AM 2232 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything - 27/07/2011 04:38:19 AM 2095 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything - 27/07/2011 08:58:55 AM 2018 Views
Re: - 27/07/2011 04:27:18 AM 2237 Views
I like your theory. - 27/07/2011 04:35:22 PM 2253 Views
Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. - 26/07/2011 11:32:18 PM 2225 Views
Re: Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. - 27/07/2011 02:00:42 AM 2093 Views
Eh? - 29/07/2011 04:44:17 PM 2229 Views
This is complicated. - 31/07/2011 10:43:15 PM 2455 Views
Wait...a woman crowned for beauty was the victorious mystery knight? - 01/08/2011 03:00:49 AM 2121 Views
It is believed the Knight of the Laughing Tree is one of two people - 01/08/2011 04:47:21 AM 2217 Views
Yup. - 02/08/2011 12:03:26 AM 2060 Views
Also... - 02/08/2011 07:17:43 AM 2131 Views
And yet, my huge brain figures it out - 04/08/2011 04:20:06 PM 2155 Views
I've read this scene yesterday and I missed this... - 02/08/2011 07:55:35 AM 2160 Views
Allow me - 05/08/2011 02:14:15 PM 2032 Views
thanks *NM* - 07/08/2011 07:28:21 AM 1157 Views
I thought this was pretty clear - 07/08/2011 05:18:54 PM 2046 Views
Hizdahr a Harpy? Innocent or Not? - 26/07/2011 03:36:56 AM 2455 Views
Interesting idea. - 26/07/2011 12:25:11 PM 2227 Views
Re: Interesting idea. - 27/07/2011 04:25:02 PM 2167 Views
What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? - 26/07/2011 04:13:27 PM 2160 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? - 27/07/2011 12:49:52 AM 2365 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? - 27/07/2011 03:49:18 AM 2310 Views
Re: A Dance with Dragons discussion thread - 29/07/2011 01:42:57 AM 2344 Views
Okay. I suck. - 29/07/2011 01:50:56 AM 2106 Views
Let me rephrase that... - 29/07/2011 01:54:07 AM 2089 Views
Jon Snow is definitely Azor Ahai. - 29/07/2011 07:31:17 PM 2680 Views
Hmm - 31/07/2011 01:52:03 PM 2574 Views
you are correct - 31/07/2011 11:08:39 PM 2168 Views
Yup. - 31/07/2011 10:49:34 PM 2026 Views
But Shireen is a dragon... - 01/08/2011 12:22:16 AM 2156 Views
I'm uncertain about that - 01/08/2011 05:35:18 AM 2142 Views
True, but I wouldn't read too much into that. - 01/08/2011 11:42:29 PM 2416 Views
Where did he say that? - 02/08/2011 07:18:39 AM 2287 Views
In interviews - 02/08/2011 02:21:28 PM 2236 Views
A little thought about Jon... - 02/08/2011 08:02:34 AM 2303 Views
Excellent point. - 02/08/2011 02:22:22 PM 2236 Views
Am I the only one who thinks... - 09/08/2011 05:16:46 PM 2264 Views
I think Martin's gonna stick to Bran being the only one who does that - 10/08/2011 09:25:12 AM 2340 Views
Anyone have any thoughts as to the purpose of Arya's storyline? - 14/08/2011 06:28:09 PM 2175 Views
She's being trained as an assassin, so the question is who is she going to kill? - 16/08/2011 01:43:12 AM 2095 Views
Jon? - 18/08/2011 09:59:03 PM 2139 Views

Reply to Message