It is under-appreciated critically, largely due to relative unpopularity.
Joel Send a noteboard - 20/04/2011 06:35:27 AM
Are you saying:
1) Cyberpunk is unpopular (more unpopular than Steampunk)
or
2) Cyberpunk is under-appreciated critically (Steampunk being more appreciated)
or
3) Cyberpunk is more worthwhile or deeper (than Steampunk)
It seems like you've conflated all three of these things into a general "under-appreciation" of sorts. This is fine on the face of it, but it is liable to misinterpretation when someone answers one facet of the question but not the other. Ghavrel I think did this in trying to explain/justify why Steampunk is more appealing than Cyberpunk currently. You took issue with the fact that it's not as deep. Those are two pretty different sub-issues to be reading into the topic, so best define your terms.
As far as Steampunk and Cyberpunk being inherently related, I still don't think they need to be measured directly against one another (which is why I put them in parentheses above. I was under the impression that the common denominator was the "punk" suffix anyway, which if anything just conveys the subversive and gritty AESTHETIC that both share, as well as how this aesthetic flies in the face of the older received Aesthetic views associated with the eras previously (Victorian England, the Future).
Anyway, I'd say that Steampunk is more popular and Cyberpunk less popular for the same reason Ghavrel does: it simply has a more appealing aesthetic. I can't argue any more trenchantly beyond that, and am not willing to. I think Cyberpunk's aesthetic is just dated, truth be told, and that the majorly important speculative themes have just bled out into other areas of Science Fiction.
1) Cyberpunk is unpopular (more unpopular than Steampunk)
or
2) Cyberpunk is under-appreciated critically (Steampunk being more appreciated)
or
3) Cyberpunk is more worthwhile or deeper (than Steampunk)
It seems like you've conflated all three of these things into a general "under-appreciation" of sorts. This is fine on the face of it, but it is liable to misinterpretation when someone answers one facet of the question but not the other. Ghavrel I think did this in trying to explain/justify why Steampunk is more appealing than Cyberpunk currently. You took issue with the fact that it's not as deep. Those are two pretty different sub-issues to be reading into the topic, so best define your terms.
As far as Steampunk and Cyberpunk being inherently related, I still don't think they need to be measured directly against one another (which is why I put them in parentheses above. I was under the impression that the common denominator was the "punk" suffix anyway, which if anything just conveys the subversive and gritty AESTHETIC that both share, as well as how this aesthetic flies in the face of the older received Aesthetic views associated with the eras previously (Victorian England, the Future).
Anyway, I'd say that Steampunk is more popular and Cyberpunk less popular for the same reason Ghavrel does: it simply has a more appealing aesthetic. I can't argue any more trenchantly beyond that, and am not willing to. I think Cyberpunk's aesthetic is just dated, truth be told, and that the majorly important speculative themes have just bled out into other areas of Science Fiction.
Its popularity relative to steampunk is really a special case of a perplexing general popularity. I really don't want to compare the two but despite all the insistence that steampunk is distinct from cyberpunk mentioning the latter invariably prompts discussion of the former. Asserting its superiority is in many ways akin to asserting Earths superiority to the Solar system: Earth is unquestionably the part of the system most noticeable and relevant to the speaker, but remains a part and product of it whether or not the speaker chooses to acknowledge those facts, and would perish quickly if separated from the systems unique characteristics.
The other problem with trying to make less than the sum of the parts greater than the whole is the much lauded aesthetic. I expected objections to describing it as noir, since current steampunk is often less so than early steampunk, and because, as I noted in my appendix on steampunk, the "gritty", "edgy" and "PUNK" aspects of steampunk are as anachronistic in the Victorian Age as the prosthetic augmentations so common in steampunk. That part of the aesthetic is purely postmodern; it works in The Maltese Falcon, it works in Reservoir Dogs, it even works in a book by K.W. Jeter (the steampunk author who named the genre)--but his novel is science fiction, not steampunk; it's a lot closer to cyberpunk, in fact. Punk was a seventies phenomenon, and so an obvious anachronism in the Victorian Age, but since you're in a good position to say: Is Victorian postmodernism a viable concept?
To put it bluntly, I don't want to get into a pissing contest, because no one can win if everyone has to share equipment. HOWEVER, if we must go there, retaining superficial cyberpunk elements completely anachronistic in the Victorian Age while stripping away any substantive element that gave cyberpunk (or gives steampunk) status as more than a trendy fad makes steampunk hollow. Where steampunk retains substance and doesn't blithely ignore science to look cool I respect and enjoy it, but where it does the opposite I can only stare dumbfounded when its acolytes call the parent genre "dated" or "the definition of trying too hard".
I don't think its important themes have bled out into general SF, because the biggest is how technology (computers especially) affect mens understanding of themselves and relationships with others, long been present in SF. Cyberpunks specific focus is on imminent technologies and effects WE (not distant interstellar descendants centuries from now) must soon confront. Steampunk can do that quite well with alternate histories where technically viable but undeveloped science IS developed, even hybrid human machine consciousness. I'd enjoy a well written convincing story of a Druid integrated with Stonehenge in the Fifth Century BC on many of the same levels, though it wouldn't offer cyberpunks near future promises because I know it didn't happen, even if it might have been (or be) possible. Still, I can't shake the suspicion that some of steampunks greater popularity is reactionary, that people prefer to pound the square peg of the Information Age into the round hole of Victorian Britain because it's safely remote in history, where we know it didn't--COULDN'T--happen, so they can ignore imminent realities too chilling to confront. Not that that makes any of them disappear.
To summarize, since I run long, my main point is that cyberpunk is under-appreciated critically, given its ongoing relevance. I believe the CAUSE is that it's perceived as stale, which is ironic when contrasted with the great popularity of a derivative deliberately "dated" to a century ago. I am not saying steampunk is less worthwhile or deep than cyberpunk, because I AM saying it is an aspect of cyberpunk, and because it can be every bit as deep and worthwhile; it's disappointing to see its ardent fans almost forbidding it do so.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
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LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
This message last edited by Joel on 20/04/2011 at 08:52:04 AM
The Sprawl Trilogy and Thoughts Thereof (or What Ever Happened to Cyberpunk?)
19/04/2011 10:50:26 PM
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Why I prefer cyberpunk in near future settings to (most) of the steampunk sub-genre.
19/04/2011 10:55:57 PM
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The difference is that steampunk, by and large, is very aware of its implausibility.
20/04/2011 01:32:57 AM
- 884 Views
You keep giving steampunk backhanded compliments like that and you'll start to confuse me.
20/04/2011 02:12:53 AM
- 950 Views
Being entertaining is not a backhanded compliment.
20/04/2011 02:34:15 AM
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It is when asserting something is better than a source containing more than entertainment.
20/04/2011 03:26:50 AM
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...didn't you wear a top hat to your wedding? *NM*
20/04/2011 04:04:42 AM
- 457 Views
IIRC I wore morning dress, the CURRENT standard here.
20/04/2011 05:08:26 AM
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Top hats in morning dress have gone the way of the ascot (you didn't wear an ascot, did you?).
20/04/2011 05:41:54 AM
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Well, my wife, mother-in-law and the woman at the haberdashery all disagree.
20/04/2011 07:05:09 AM
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the ability to wear a costume at a convention is hardly a ringing endorsement of a genre
22/04/2011 01:49:40 AM
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Your impression is close to being my comments verbatim.
22/04/2011 02:50:18 AM
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I tried to avoid that word, but I'll leave comparisons there and discuss pure cyberpunk henceforth.
22/04/2011 03:58:29 PM
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You keep coming back to this argument, and it keeps being a stupid one.
22/04/2011 10:33:14 PM
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I also can't help noting how this whole argument mirrors Count Zero.
24/04/2011 05:35:01 AM
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I think it's just a matter of two separate genres that share very similar names and perhaps origins.
20/04/2011 01:32:50 AM
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It's hard to argue that the genres are separate, but I did try to avoid suggesting a competition.
20/04/2011 03:08:49 AM
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Ok, what are you trying to argue for and/or explore in this thread? There are three options:
20/04/2011 04:22:52 AM
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It is under-appreciated critically, largely due to relative unpopularity.
20/04/2011 06:35:27 AM
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"Victorian Postmodernism" is viable because Postmodernism can appropriate other periods and styles.
21/04/2011 01:13:45 AM
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But can other periods and styles appropriate postmodernism?
21/04/2011 07:38:29 PM
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I don't think it's a two-way street in that manner. It's PoMo appropriating Victorian not vice versa
21/04/2011 11:40:29 PM
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It's only superficially postmodern though, else there'd be no wistfulness for Victorian styles.
22/04/2011 03:17:38 PM
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IMO, cyberpunk has become somewhat dated.
20/04/2011 04:46:55 AM
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Actually, I can live with that, though terms like "dated" invite trouble.
20/04/2011 07:01:50 AM
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Re: Actually, I can live with that, though terms like "dated" invite trouble.
22/04/2011 04:12:20 AM
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so...is bladerunner cyberpunk
20/04/2011 09:48:15 PM
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It's usually seen as the archetypal cyberpunk film, yeah.
21/04/2011 10:50:44 AM
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so cyber is the time and punk is the attitude?
21/04/2011 12:57:01 PM
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I don't think the portmanteau is that precisely defined.
21/04/2011 08:31:34 PM
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I am amazed that no one has referenced this TVTropes page yet...
23/04/2011 07:45:14 PM
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Playing with fire; I should've known TVTropes would exhaustively cover the derivatives.
24/04/2011 03:11:56 AM
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It's always hard to pigeonhole things, especially as they become more specific
24/04/2011 06:27:28 PM
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The "dated" idea is interesting.
23/04/2011 08:08:26 PM
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PS the Takeshi Kovacs books are great, and you should all go read them *NM*
23/04/2011 08:09:54 PM
- 428 Views
I think it underestimates cyberpunk, and overestimates (present) reality (yes, spoilers now).
24/04/2011 02:24:01 AM
- 994 Views