Ok, what are you trying to argue for and/or explore in this thread? There are three options:
Dan Send a noteboard - 20/04/2011 04:22:52 AM
Are you saying:
1) Cyberpunk is unpopular (more unpopular than Steampunk)
or
2) Cyberpunk is under-appreciated critically (Steampunk being more appreciated)
or
3) Cyberpunk is more worthwhile or deeper (than Steampunk)
It seems like you've conflated all three of these things into a general "under-appreciation" of sorts. This is fine on the face of it, but it is liable to misinterpretation when someone answers one facet of the question but not the other. Ghavrel I think did this in trying to explain/justify why Steampunk is more appealing than Cyberpunk currently. You took issue with the fact that it's not as deep. Those are two pretty different sub-issues to be reading into the topic, so best define your terms.
As far as Steampunk and Cyberpunk being inherently related, I still don't think they need to be measured directly against one another (which is why I put them in parentheses above. I was under the impression that the common denominator was the "punk" suffix anyway, which if anything just conveys the subversive and gritty AESTHETIC that both share, as well as how this aesthetic flies in the face of the older received Aesthetic views associated with the eras previously (Victorian England, the Future).
Anyway, I'd say that Steampunk is more popular and Cyberpunk less popular for the same reason Ghavrel does: it simply has a more appealing aesthetic. I can't argue any more trenchantly beyond that, and am not willing to. I think Cyberpunk's aesthetic is just dated, truth be told, and that the majorly important speculative themes have just bled out into other areas of Science Fiction.
Steampunks name is a conscious extension of cyberpunk so I can't avoid seeing the genre that way. From that perspective, however, arguing the superiority of one is illogical, like arguing the letter "A" is "better" than the alphabet, or vice versa. Obviously I think the perspective itself is important to a full understanding of steampunk and cyberpunk, but a competition is pointless when their achievements are so tightly entwined.
Where steampunk diverges with well established scientific facts I usually lose interest because it is just fantasy with pretensions to science, but some steampunk doesn't do that; again I cite The Difference Engine. It's alternate history without alterations to science that it doesn't have to handwave or lampshade. Like (other) cyberpunk that's interesting because it's about the impact of technology in the abtract on humanity rather than a given eras technology. Stories like that retain the plausibility and relevance they've had since the Enligtenment inaugurated rapid scientific advancement. In that sense Frankenstein is better steampunk than The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen; I don't think it nearly as fun, but enjoying Big Trouble in Little China more than To Kill a Mockingbird doesn't mean I think it's better (if I had to pick, there's no question which one I'd want to inspire my children).
All that said, I did focus on why cyberpunk remains worthwhile to read, despite alluding at the start to its derivatives greater current popularity. Again, I honestly have no idea why it's regarded as obsolete when most of it still lies in the future; if it's because people think most of it lies in the present they weren't paying attention. I actually emailed my essay to a guy I've known since we both read cyberpunk in HS and he responded that "[1984] looked '20 minutes into the future' and posited tech that seemed fantastical then but archaic now. Same with the tech of Gibson's stories. Prior to the advent of LCD screens, jacking in seemed like the only option for a portable computer. " Reducing jacking in to a source of portable compueters misses the point as badly as reducing 1984 to a story about every home having television. Neural computer interfaces aren't archaic, nor are AIs, cybernetically augmented humans or biological software and hardware. I can't explain the sense of "been there, done that" when no one HAS been there. A lot of it is right around the corner, much of it is probably decades or centuries around the corner, and, as with all science fiction, a lot of it looks imminent but will ultimately prove impossible.
That's one potential explanation (though it feels a bit elitist), that a lot of people who should know better think most of what will be realized from cyberpunk has been, because they simply weren't paying attention. I don't think it's just me getting old, because various parts of cyberpunks fiction still regularly become fact, and most of that is yet to come. The least desirable explanation is the one I mentioned in my conclusion: That the challenges of the near future seem so insurmountable and the technology so dangerous that escapist fantasies of an Edwardian Neverland focused on prosthetic augmentation (while ignoring pollution and the dearth of human rights) is more attractive. My hope is that it's simply a failure of cyberpunk to become mainstream due to the fact that it's easier for present cinematography to convincingly depict a "sci fi" 1870 than 2070. Among literary enthusiasts though that's a very poor excuse.
1) Cyberpunk is unpopular (more unpopular than Steampunk)
or
2) Cyberpunk is under-appreciated critically (Steampunk being more appreciated)
or
3) Cyberpunk is more worthwhile or deeper (than Steampunk)
It seems like you've conflated all three of these things into a general "under-appreciation" of sorts. This is fine on the face of it, but it is liable to misinterpretation when someone answers one facet of the question but not the other. Ghavrel I think did this in trying to explain/justify why Steampunk is more appealing than Cyberpunk currently. You took issue with the fact that it's not as deep. Those are two pretty different sub-issues to be reading into the topic, so best define your terms.
As far as Steampunk and Cyberpunk being inherently related, I still don't think they need to be measured directly against one another (which is why I put them in parentheses above. I was under the impression that the common denominator was the "punk" suffix anyway, which if anything just conveys the subversive and gritty AESTHETIC that both share, as well as how this aesthetic flies in the face of the older received Aesthetic views associated with the eras previously (Victorian England, the Future).
Anyway, I'd say that Steampunk is more popular and Cyberpunk less popular for the same reason Ghavrel does: it simply has a more appealing aesthetic. I can't argue any more trenchantly beyond that, and am not willing to. I think Cyberpunk's aesthetic is just dated, truth be told, and that the majorly important speculative themes have just bled out into other areas of Science Fiction.
With that in mind, arguing that Cyberpunk is demonstrably superior to Steampunk is like arguing Science Fiction is demonstrably superior to Fantasy. Which is what I actually think the distinction you're making comes down to, very roughly. I guess it's a possible point to argue, but it's pretty daunting and a bit too wide-reaching, in my opinion. I would just focus instead on attempting to figure out why Cyberpunk alone has declined in popularity, and why it's worthwhile to read. Don't juxtapose it to Steampunk. It's not a zero-sum game.
Steampunks name is a conscious extension of cyberpunk so I can't avoid seeing the genre that way. From that perspective, however, arguing the superiority of one is illogical, like arguing the letter "A" is "better" than the alphabet, or vice versa. Obviously I think the perspective itself is important to a full understanding of steampunk and cyberpunk, but a competition is pointless when their achievements are so tightly entwined.
Where steampunk diverges with well established scientific facts I usually lose interest because it is just fantasy with pretensions to science, but some steampunk doesn't do that; again I cite The Difference Engine. It's alternate history without alterations to science that it doesn't have to handwave or lampshade. Like (other) cyberpunk that's interesting because it's about the impact of technology in the abtract on humanity rather than a given eras technology. Stories like that retain the plausibility and relevance they've had since the Enligtenment inaugurated rapid scientific advancement. In that sense Frankenstein is better steampunk than The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen; I don't think it nearly as fun, but enjoying Big Trouble in Little China more than To Kill a Mockingbird doesn't mean I think it's better (if I had to pick, there's no question which one I'd want to inspire my children).
All that said, I did focus on why cyberpunk remains worthwhile to read, despite alluding at the start to its derivatives greater current popularity. Again, I honestly have no idea why it's regarded as obsolete when most of it still lies in the future; if it's because people think most of it lies in the present they weren't paying attention. I actually emailed my essay to a guy I've known since we both read cyberpunk in HS and he responded that "[1984] looked '20 minutes into the future' and posited tech that seemed fantastical then but archaic now. Same with the tech of Gibson's stories. Prior to the advent of LCD screens, jacking in seemed like the only option for a portable computer. " Reducing jacking in to a source of portable compueters misses the point as badly as reducing 1984 to a story about every home having television. Neural computer interfaces aren't archaic, nor are AIs, cybernetically augmented humans or biological software and hardware. I can't explain the sense of "been there, done that" when no one HAS been there. A lot of it is right around the corner, much of it is probably decades or centuries around the corner, and, as with all science fiction, a lot of it looks imminent but will ultimately prove impossible.
That's one potential explanation (though it feels a bit elitist), that a lot of people who should know better think most of what will be realized from cyberpunk has been, because they simply weren't paying attention. I don't think it's just me getting old, because various parts of cyberpunks fiction still regularly become fact, and most of that is yet to come. The least desirable explanation is the one I mentioned in my conclusion: That the challenges of the near future seem so insurmountable and the technology so dangerous that escapist fantasies of an Edwardian Neverland focused on prosthetic augmentation (while ignoring pollution and the dearth of human rights) is more attractive. My hope is that it's simply a failure of cyberpunk to become mainstream due to the fact that it's easier for present cinematography to convincingly depict a "sci fi" 1870 than 2070. Among literary enthusiasts though that's a very poor excuse.
This message last edited by Dan on 20/04/2011 at 04:31:32 AM
The Sprawl Trilogy and Thoughts Thereof (or What Ever Happened to Cyberpunk?)
19/04/2011 10:50:26 PM
- 2445 Views
Why I prefer cyberpunk in near future settings to (most) of the steampunk sub-genre.
19/04/2011 10:55:57 PM
- 1320 Views
The difference is that steampunk, by and large, is very aware of its implausibility.
20/04/2011 01:32:57 AM
- 885 Views
You keep giving steampunk backhanded compliments like that and you'll start to confuse me.
20/04/2011 02:12:53 AM
- 951 Views
Being entertaining is not a backhanded compliment.
20/04/2011 02:34:15 AM
- 1015 Views
It is when asserting something is better than a source containing more than entertainment.
20/04/2011 03:26:50 AM
- 1099 Views
...didn't you wear a top hat to your wedding? *NM*
20/04/2011 04:04:42 AM
- 458 Views
IIRC I wore morning dress, the CURRENT standard here.
20/04/2011 05:08:26 AM
- 957 Views
Top hats in morning dress have gone the way of the ascot (you didn't wear an ascot, did you?).
20/04/2011 05:41:54 AM
- 893 Views
Well, my wife, mother-in-law and the woman at the haberdashery all disagree.
20/04/2011 07:05:09 AM
- 982 Views
the ability to wear a costume at a convention is hardly a ringing endorsement of a genre
22/04/2011 01:49:40 AM
- 1049 Views
Your impression is close to being my comments verbatim.
22/04/2011 02:50:18 AM
- 1017 Views
I tried to avoid that word, but I'll leave comparisons there and discuss pure cyberpunk henceforth.
22/04/2011 03:58:29 PM
- 1038 Views
You keep coming back to this argument, and it keeps being a stupid one.
22/04/2011 10:33:14 PM
- 954 Views
I also can't help noting how this whole argument mirrors Count Zero.
24/04/2011 05:35:01 AM
- 1311 Views
I think it's just a matter of two separate genres that share very similar names and perhaps origins.
20/04/2011 01:32:50 AM
- 1038 Views
It's hard to argue that the genres are separate, but I did try to avoid suggesting a competition.
20/04/2011 03:08:49 AM
- 1068 Views
Ok, what are you trying to argue for and/or explore in this thread? There are three options:
20/04/2011 04:22:52 AM
- 953 Views
It is under-appreciated critically, largely due to relative unpopularity.
20/04/2011 06:35:27 AM
- 1141 Views
"Victorian Postmodernism" is viable because Postmodernism can appropriate other periods and styles.
21/04/2011 01:13:45 AM
- 990 Views
But can other periods and styles appropriate postmodernism?
21/04/2011 07:38:29 PM
- 1046 Views
I don't think it's a two-way street in that manner. It's PoMo appropriating Victorian not vice versa
21/04/2011 11:40:29 PM
- 1040 Views
It's only superficially postmodern though, else there'd be no wistfulness for Victorian styles.
22/04/2011 03:17:38 PM
- 1066 Views
IMO, cyberpunk has become somewhat dated.
20/04/2011 04:46:55 AM
- 1117 Views
Actually, I can live with that, though terms like "dated" invite trouble.
20/04/2011 07:01:50 AM
- 974 Views
Re: Actually, I can live with that, though terms like "dated" invite trouble.
22/04/2011 04:12:20 AM
- 1042 Views
so...is bladerunner cyberpunk
20/04/2011 09:48:15 PM
- 825 Views
It's usually seen as the archetypal cyberpunk film, yeah.
21/04/2011 10:50:44 AM
- 1161 Views
so cyber is the time and punk is the attitude?
21/04/2011 12:57:01 PM
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I don't think the portmanteau is that precisely defined.
21/04/2011 08:31:34 PM
- 1070 Views
I am amazed that no one has referenced this TVTropes page yet...
23/04/2011 07:45:14 PM
- 1311 Views
Playing with fire; I should've known TVTropes would exhaustively cover the derivatives.
24/04/2011 03:11:56 AM
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It's always hard to pigeonhole things, especially as they become more specific
24/04/2011 06:27:28 PM
- 914 Views
The "dated" idea is interesting.
23/04/2011 08:08:26 PM
- 998 Views
PS the Takeshi Kovacs books are great, and you should all go read them *NM*
23/04/2011 08:09:54 PM
- 429 Views
I think it underestimates cyberpunk, and overestimates (present) reality (yes, spoilers now).
24/04/2011 02:24:01 AM
- 995 Views