This is actually GRRM's attitude in the first place. To be honest, I'd probably not even get involved in the debate (and my plan at the moment is to not do so once the same discussions inevitably begin over Book 6, which will be about 2 weeks before ADWD even comes out) if other people close to George were not getting quite annoyed about the false information being spread out there.
Frankly, I don't see what you can do about false information. People have screamed themselves hoarse in defense, but people will continue to believe that CoT is one long bath scene and that GRRM is gorging on popcorn as he watches movies all day instead of writing aDwD.
Frankly, I think we can see a trend here. From limited participation in fantasy message boards, I can see that bitching and moaning about various authors is a powerfully addictive pass time. Be it Tolkien's apparently questionable handling of race and women or Jordan being a sellout or Martin being disenchanted with aSoIaF or plain lazy, and similar accusations against Rothfuss and Lynch, there seems to be a realization among the internet community that if they raise a furor over the issue, someone higher up in the publishing grapevine will notice, or else loyal fans will be pissed, and in the yelling matches that follow, the cynics can be snide and sneery and come out thinking they've made a big point.
By all means, I don't think every skeptic or critic is this way. But certainly, you see this kind of criticism go out of hand way too often. The utter looniness of saying that an author may die before he completes the series in his own blog is astonishing, yet it has happened.
This is another point I would be interested to see people discuss more: is the key problem that the author is too much of a perfectionist and cannot let go of the material? ASoS, by most accounts the best book in the series, was written in a little more than two years. So WTF is up with AFFC and ADWD?
And I think the answer to that is to do with the whole structure of the series and the decision to radically change the structure mid-flow and the subsequent new decision (made after the promise ADWD would be out in a year) to re-structure the series again so it would be a bit faster and wouldn't sprawl.
But again, we don't see a huge amount of discussion about that either.
And I think the answer to that is to do with the whole structure of the series and the decision to radically change the structure mid-flow and the subsequent new decision (made after the promise ADWD would be out in a year) to re-structure the series again so it would be a bit faster and wouldn't sprawl.
But again, we don't see a huge amount of discussion about that either.
Yup. Personally, I was a great fan of the five year gap. Martin's statement that too much would have to be explained by flashback always seemed a little thin to me.
Imagine returning to characters you knew so well, or thought you did, after five years in their life. The basic characteristics may still be there, but the changes in their persona offer a vast chance for an author to keep the reader strongly engaged, wondering what happened to cause such drastic changes. He can give out information in dribbles, plant mysteries and motivations in the past, and in general, make a rich and interesting story.
Not that it would be easy, but I think aSoIaF, with its strong characters, would have benefited vastly from this kind of spacing in the story. It also has the excellent advantage of letting the author do literally what her wants with regards to the placement of his characters.
Sad that GRRM chose to abandon that path.
Interesting. In effect, Jordan and Martin have faced the same problem and Jordan's answer was to write his way out of it (so new material was still coming out) whilst Martin's is to edit and rewrite his way out of it, which means no new material is actually released in the meantime. As you say, the question is which approach is better.
Its thorny. Some, of course, would say the problem is endemic in epic fantasy, and both authors should simply have trimmed the number of PoV characters. But I admire the complexity and depth both have been able to give their world and story, and that has been achieved primarily through the means of a very diverse cast.
For Jordan, things might have worked out if he had simply left out some characters from certain books, like Perrin from WH and Ekayne from CoT. But maybe not, since his leaving out Mat in tPoD was not well received either.
Certainly, I don't see a five year gap making sense in WoT. The story is too continuous to be able to take that, though it would have been great to see the cast after five years.
As for re-editing, I think the only thing editable with the last few books are certain characters and the amount of time Jordan spent on them. By themselves, their stories are still good and coherent. They just mesh horribly together, and what filler is there is positioned very unfortunately.
With Martin, we cannot comment till aDwD comes out. While I can speculate, I'm entirely uncertain which players GRRM wants interacting before the end. Unlike WoT, they do not have the advantage of having grown up together. He will need to give time for new alliances to mature and make sense, for new conflicts to fit within the overall plot of his story. And if the five or more years he takes to figure all this out helps him resolve the issues, then more power to him. But I'm afraid that if aDwD were to be below par in the way aFFC was, entirely too many people will claim aSoIaF is a doomed series.
If ASoIaF is eventually completed and the rewriting approach pays off and the final three books are as well-received as the first three, then that decision will be validated, as ASoIaF will be left as a 7-book series with a slightly below-par book right in the middle. The problem WoT faces is that even if books 12-14 are mindblowingly brilliant, the series is still going to have the rep of there being at least 3 (or more, depending on viewpoint) books which are quite weak, damaging its overall perception. GRRM's approach, whilst frustrating to readers right now, is probably the better one in the long run.
In the long run, though, fewer people will read the latter WoT books or aSoIaF books after long gaps where anticipation grows to fever pitch. And that will go a long way in removing tage like "worst fantasay book of all time" from books like CoT, and aFFC will also be more positively viewed, IMO. These books aren't like Erikson's, where timelines, plots and characters seem to have no connection at all with events in previous books. Read as a whole, I think both series will stand strong enough that their long term popularity is more or less assured.
Unless of course the later books take ages to come out and then they suck, in which case he's in real trouble
I cannot believe they will literally "suck". They might not match aSoS, say, but that is entirely acceptable. A series with one such book is rare enough.
As for the "trouble" he will face, I think it will be short lived. The characters and stories in aSoIaF are iconic enough that over time, minor quibbles over delays and supposed drops in quality will not matter so much.
Now I understand why everyone has been bitching about a Dance of Dragons....
18/09/2009 12:36:21 AM
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It's not just that. He split A Feast for Crows into two.
18/09/2009 03:10:35 AM
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Re: It's not just that. He split A Feast for Crows into two. *NM*
18/09/2009 04:04:06 AM
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Titles
18/09/2009 04:15:24 AM
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Ok, Martin is published by Bantam...replace "Tor" with "Bantam"
18/09/2009 05:43:51 PM
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Nope, still doesn't work.
18/09/2009 08:49:09 PM
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I would recommend you re-read my post - you're confusing me with someone else
18/09/2009 10:24:24 PM
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Remember what The Neil said: "GRRM is not your bitch!" *NM*
18/09/2009 07:32:47 AM
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I don't give a shit what Neil Gaiman thinks
18/09/2009 05:35:54 PM
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Gaiman = The Most Overrated Author of the New Milennium. *NM*
20/09/2009 12:33:10 AM
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In your opinion, of course. *NM*
20/09/2009 01:28:33 AM
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Yes, and this entire thread deals with opinions.
20/09/2009 01:52:21 AM
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I see the reason in that.
20/09/2009 02:13:46 AM
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I haven't even finished reading A Clash of Kings and I'm a touch annoyed by Martin already
20/09/2009 02:35:32 AM
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I can see my rule of not reading series that have not been finished is paying off.
18/09/2009 11:00:37 AM
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Sometimes ...
18/09/2009 05:07:18 AM
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Sometimes...Neil Gaiman should be thrown into a meat grinder.
18/09/2009 05:49:56 PM
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You paid for a product. You got a product. That is the end of the matter in its entirety.
18/09/2009 09:03:05 PM
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Was this well out of line, by any chance?
18/09/2009 10:25:57 PM
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damn you are rude *NM*
18/09/2009 10:51:19 PM
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Gosh. This is pretty tiring.
18/09/2009 11:25:51 PM
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So this guy still hasn't been banned yet, why exactly?
19/09/2009 04:13:05 PM
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Get off your high horse. Someone disagrees with you. Deal with it. *NM*
20/09/2009 12:35:24 AM
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No, this guy is breaching the forum rules on attacks and insults.
20/09/2009 02:57:20 AM
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Oh please. Grow some thicker skin.
20/09/2009 03:26:33 AM
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You think this behaviour would have been tolerated on Wotmania? It definitely would not have been.
20/09/2009 03:31:20 AM
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"It" would have been. "It" was.
20/09/2009 05:45:14 AM
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Nope, I'm someone simply a hell of a lot better informed about the situation then you. Deal with it. *NM*
19/09/2009 02:40:07 AM
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I'd agree with you except for the fact that there was the 'promise'. *NM*
19/09/2009 05:59:21 PM
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Gaiman would just turn the episode into an amazing graphic novel as he died. *NM*
19/09/2009 01:06:30 PM
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That's the most valid point of the argument.
18/09/2009 11:54:26 PM
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Agreed.
19/09/2009 03:02:48 AM
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Now to me that supports Tom's point about 'reliance theory'.
19/09/2009 05:55:28 PM
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But a promise was never made.
19/09/2009 06:04:55 PM
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I think we're hung up on the definition of "promise."
19/09/2009 07:14:30 PM
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Who is GGK and where is his article? + my opinion on Martin
19/09/2009 07:55:01 PM
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This is where the great divide comes into play
19/09/2009 08:10:09 PM
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I think he should take a page out of RJ's book
19/09/2009 08:36:55 PM
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Excellent point.
19/09/2009 10:09:36 PM
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Re: Excellent point.
20/09/2009 12:21:21 AM
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Re: I think we're hung up on the definition of "promise."
19/09/2009 08:04:53 PM
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Exceptions prove the rule...
19/09/2009 08:42:39 PM
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