I think you're relying on math way too much to interpret the situation.
Werthead Send a noteboard - 25/03/2011 08:48:32 PM
So by what standard do you judge too long or too short? For novels or anything? By your rationale we can't make any metaphysical claim about anything that works in grades. This is commonly known as the paradox of the heap, but also known as the fallacy of the heap, go wiki it. It's a logical fallacy. I personally think 3 years is pushing too long. If you're working 4 to 6 hour days, it shouldn't be extraordinarily hard to write a 300k word book in a year, two years if youre slow and the editing process was exhaustive. So considering his organizational problems, I think it should have taken 4 years (were he a normal hard working writer). I said 5 only to appease the Martin-sympathizer. So if it's 6.... there should be no room for consideration it's too long.
Let's try a different tack here. In theory, you are correct if you assume writing is a mechanical process. If Writer A (let us call him 'Erikson' can write a 380,000-word novel in eight months, then Writer B (let us call him 'Martin' should be able to write a 450,000-word novel in say one year. Since we know Writer A does not do multiple drafts but Writer B does, that means we can even give Writer B the time to completely rewrite the book once more from scratch and also write at half the speed of Writer A and he should still be done in four years tops (not even going into the fact that he had 100,000-odd words written, even if most or all of these were subsequently rewritten, at the start of the process).
Where the problem breaks down is that Martin is, by both his own admission and the reports of his agent and editors, a procrastinating perfectionist, and since the publication of AFFC has the financial freedom to indulge that procrastination. We are not talking about a second drafting pass or even three or four. We are talking about some chapters being rewritten, scrapped and written again a dozen times. We are talking about structural and timeline changes to the book multiple times, each of which required rewriting a large portion of the book. In fact, at various times Martin was months away from completion only to find one or more issues that, when fixed, triggered domino effects requiring the rewriting (and in some cases scrapping) of tens of thousands of words of material.
Essentially, it's the novel as chaos theory. In a more ideal circumstance Martin would have had a detailed outline (something else that a lot of faster writers have but Martin does not) which would have completely negated the whole situation. But he didn't.
Look, I'm not about to call RJ a liar. But I'm also not about to admit that he was completely honest about this process. I mean, this is the man who conceived of Aes Sedai...He said he felt ill on Memorial Day which led him to get a check up, which led to the diagnosis. Now maybe RJ was especially careful about his health and went in whenever he felt the slightest thing wrong. Personally, I saw him as someone who wouldn't take much thought to a little discomfort and keep writing. His pace had long slowed down to a book every two years, so that's a sign his stamina wasn't the same anymore. But most importantly, one does not develop a heart condition over night. You don't wake up, feel bad, go to the doctor, and get told that overnight you developed a serious heart condition. It's not as if he had a heart attack. We're talking about a condition that likely affected him for months before he was diagnosed if not years.
C'mon, this is guesswork and mere supposition. Since he says quite clearly that he did not suffer from his illness before that date and all you can produce against that is, "Erm, well, maybe he did and he didn't realise it, or something," I think we have to go with Jordan's own words on this one.
And his pace never slowed to one book every two years. He spent five years writing THE EYE OF THE WORLD and THE GREAT HUNT and was well into THE DRAGON REBORN before TEotW even came out. Publication caught up with him around Books 5-6 because he had a huge amount of lead time, and after that publication time slowed to match his writing time.
(1) Granting that Martin had huge structural issues...
Hang on, that explains a lot.
You're going by writing time alone, and are working on the assumption that every one of those words went straight into the book. So ADWD is 450,000 words long (plus maybe another 10-20,000 that have gone into THE WINDS OF WINTER), but every last one of those words has been gone over multiple times.
In discussions with GRRM, he claims that few chapters on the book have not been gone over at least 3 times. A few chapters (particularly those in the Meereenese Knote) have been written and rewritten a dozen times or more over. It doesn't take much mathmatical skill to realise that once you are taking half a million words and replicating that even just once or twice, the amount of work that has gone into the book is monumental (the same is true of Tolkien for that matter; the 400,000 words published in the novel is the product of probably twice that in drafts, false starts and abandoned plotlines, borne out in THE HISTORY OF MIDDLE-EARTH series).
How many words have gone into ADWD to get to the 450,000 in it at the end? GRRM had no idea when I asked him, but it is at least twice that. If it's three or four, then you are talking about a staggering amount of material written in those 5-6 years.
Not to meniton, LotR took so long because Tolkien face the difficulty of getting started. Once he found his story, it didn't take an incredibly long time.
Tolkien had problems in getting to grips with LotR, since he started the book under the impression it was just THE HOBBIT 2. But that really didn't take such a long time. He started writing the book around Christmas 1937 and by 1939 he'd already called it THE LORD OF THE RINGS, decided on the Ring as the major linking item between the two books, Sauron as the villain and conceived the idea of the book as a sequel as much to THE SILMARILLION as THE HOBBIT. And from that point it was still eight years to write the manuscript and another two after that to complete the final manuscript (and then another six until it was in print).
So yes, it was an exceptionally long time.
And of course we could get into THE SILMARILLION. 200,000 words, begun in 1917, published in 1977. Even if we accepted that Tolkien wrote ten words a day, worked seven days a week and writing was his fourth-highest priority, by your logic he was still a lazy-ass loser worthy only of contempt for taking that amount of time to write a book (and dying before he managed it).-
A Dance With Dragons
22/03/2011 11:43:01 PM
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See, I disagree.
23/03/2011 01:05:59 AM
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Also, I think we all know GRRM has more interest than just writing
23/03/2011 05:06:34 AM
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...
23/03/2011 01:17:57 AM
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Yeah but, come on, 6 years? And 5 years for the book before that? *NM*
23/03/2011 05:05:01 AM
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The way I see it ...
23/03/2011 03:59:35 AM
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what this guy said. so true. not enough time in the day for all the cool stuff. i can wait *NM*
23/03/2011 04:39:35 AM
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If people are upset with him, don't buy the book.
23/03/2011 07:52:02 AM
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Re: If people are upset with him, don't buy the book.
23/03/2011 01:22:09 PM
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Do you guys literally have nothing else to read?
24/03/2011 06:40:51 AM
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do you realize how little time is spent on whining and bitching?
24/03/2011 10:06:16 AM
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Re: Do you guys literally have nothing else to read?
24/03/2011 03:58:11 PM
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*complain*
23/03/2011 10:19:33 PM
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*sigh*
24/03/2011 10:11:29 AM
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Re: *sigh*
24/03/2011 01:56:51 PM
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Well
24/03/2011 02:44:00 PM
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Re: Well
25/03/2011 12:17:08 AM
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apparently you cant read...
25/03/2011 12:37:51 AM
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Seriously? You don't know how Jordan's illness manifested itself?
25/03/2011 02:19:23 AM
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I'm glad you mentioned LotR
25/03/2011 03:21:46 AM
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Can we please stop making baseless comparisons to Lord of the Rings? Thanks.
25/03/2011 06:22:50 AM
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And can we try to strive for accuracy in what we are saying? Thanks.
25/03/2011 08:24:51 AM
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Yeah, and im sure WWII, which his son was fighting in, wasn't a distraction at all
25/03/2011 01:09:22 PM
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He still went to work, bucko.
25/03/2011 06:57:26 PM
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Are you seriously that naive?
25/03/2011 01:07:39 PM
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I think you're relying on math way too much to interpret the situation.
25/03/2011 08:48:32 PM
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I don't care at all after so long a wait, but I do love watching the fanboys scramble to defend him. *NM*
24/03/2011 01:20:15 AM
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Your complaints would find more resonance if he hadn't announced a publication date yet.
24/03/2011 01:55:01 PM
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Re: A Dance With Dragons
24/03/2011 02:06:48 PM
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Re: A Dance With Dragons
24/03/2011 03:08:27 PM
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But Sanderson's book was a mess. *NM*
24/03/2011 09:35:56 PM
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Was it really? Which one was this? *NM*
25/03/2011 03:40:58 AM
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ToM. Still was better than what Jordan was writing, though.
25/03/2011 06:21:49 AM
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Interesting.
27/03/2011 11:32:39 PM
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I thought it was pretty damn good, personally. *NM*
25/03/2011 05:13:25 AM
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I enjoyed it a lot more than I enjoyed any of Jordan's recent books.
25/03/2011 06:20:47 AM
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This thread is becoming vaguely ridiculous.
25/03/2011 01:31:40 PM
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I think about half of the responses are just from Malkierknight. *NM*
25/03/2011 05:11:18 PM
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These threads are always ridiculous. I'm both astounded & not at all surprised that there's another
25/03/2011 06:39:34 PM
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Are you familiar with Minecraft?
25/03/2011 07:05:56 PM
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It always astounds me that the developers at Valve aren't hanging from street lamps outside their HQ
25/03/2011 09:07:56 PM
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Whoops.
26/03/2011 09:25:28 PM
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I'd delete it for you to tidy up, but I think two posts by CNRedDragon is a good thing. *NM*
27/03/2011 07:49:55 AM
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Jaysus, it's not like he's maliciously holding back the book on you
25/03/2011 03:46:00 PM
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Re: Jaysus, it's not like he's maliciously holding back the book on you
25/03/2011 04:31:31 PM
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Re: Your math up above
25/03/2011 04:45:23 PM
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Re: Your math up above
26/03/2011 02:43:03 PM
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That was gentle ribbing, not ad hom. Calm down.
26/03/2011 04:22:24 PM
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Re: That was gentle ribbing, not ad hom. Calm down.
26/03/2011 05:09:19 PM
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When you see people like Nate, Tash, or Rebekah, you don't have to worry.
26/03/2011 06:59:01 PM
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I see that I need to work on my reputation.
28/03/2011 05:49:30 PM
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Perhaps it is the same as one does not speak ill of fairies or elves.
28/03/2011 11:22:17 PM
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A very wise man once informed people that George R. R. Martin is not their bitch.
26/03/2011 09:26:15 PM
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He hasn't only been working on A Dance With Dreams. So Chill Already! *NM*
27/03/2011 04:26:17 PM
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