I am sure there are artist of some form or another that your friend would be putoff to hear attacked.
The simple fact that we are discussing Tolkien almost a century after it was written lends to the idea that he must have got something right. You can pick any writer that has ever published and find things about his or her work that some people will not like. Why are simple plots and uncomplicated characters considered bad? Many faux intellectuals lack the imagination to understand that what they want in a story is not what everyone wants and make the mistake of thinking their taste are some how superior to others. It is like thinking red must be better then blue because it is your favorite color and then looking down those who like blue and getting pissed when they don't want to hear your rants about why blue sucks so badly.
Tolkien was a great story teller and generation after generation has fallen in love with his stories. That makes his books great regardless of what a few people choose to believe.
I do agree it is just as wrong to attack people for what they don’t like as it to attack them for what they do like. So if you friend wants to hate on Tolkien that is his choice but I do believe he is wrong in some of his criticism.
The characters are not as shallow as he implies nor is the plot. A couple of points to illustrate that.
1.The hero failed. Frodo the loveable and faithful hobbit in the end failed, he succumbed to the lure of the ring and chose to betray everyone and everything he loved and keep the ring. The firsy time I read the books that shocked me. I never expected Frodo to fail.
2.Boromir was a complex character who was basically a good man who only wanted to do what was right but failed miserably when he tried to force his will on his companions.
Was Boromir a hero or a villain? that should be an easy question in a simple story with boring characters.
3.Lady Galadriel was a female and during the time covered by TotR she was the second most powerful being in Middle Earth. If you read the Silmarillion there are numerous power females characters in Tolkien’s work.
4.The story revolved around sword and axe style fighting and guess what. There never were a lot women involved in that sort of fighting or anything other sort of warfare for that matter. Yes the occasional exception that proves the rule through out history war has been the providence of men. To criticize Tolkien for reflecting that is to criticize reality for not meeting your expectations.
His character’s had real motives, real histories and real flaws. I find them believe and more importantly I cared what happened to them. One of the greatest sins a story can have IMHO is characters who I don’t care about and who I could care less if the lived or died. The biggest failing of the Blair Witch Project? I wanted someone to kill all of the main characters. Tolkien not only made me want to love his heroes but he often made me sympathize with his villains. His villains for the most part were not villains simply because they were evil but because of tragic things that had happened to them. Gollum’s character was the exception he was simply the most obvious of a number of villains tha tall fit the basic them of tragic fallen people who had redeeming qualities but who were corrupted. You wanted them to break free of that corruption but they never did.
I think it is unfair to criticize Tolkien’s work as a pointless hero quest story and complain about him being anti-progress and pro-nature. Those are elements he cared deeply about and that is reflected in his work. Tolkien was a bit of a nutter and he truly loved trees. In one of his essays he rails against a woman who cut down a tree that was blocking her view. He felt trees were sacred. Anyone who reads and loves Tolkien can not help but to come away loving trees just a little bit more and questioning the lose of forest. It is hard to argue with success.
If you judge a work by how successful it was at achieving its goals then Tolkien's work was the work of genius.
tell your friend that it is unrealistic to think you can attack something people love and hold dear and expect there to be no push back. Thinking otherwise is simply unrealistic and shows a deep lack of understanding in human nature.
Besides when your books suck as bad as Moorcock’s book sucked you really have no right to look down your nose at others.
The simple fact that we are discussing Tolkien almost a century after it was written lends to the idea that he must have got something right. You can pick any writer that has ever published and find things about his or her work that some people will not like. Why are simple plots and uncomplicated characters considered bad? Many faux intellectuals lack the imagination to understand that what they want in a story is not what everyone wants and make the mistake of thinking their taste are some how superior to others. It is like thinking red must be better then blue because it is your favorite color and then looking down those who like blue and getting pissed when they don't want to hear your rants about why blue sucks so badly.
Tolkien was a great story teller and generation after generation has fallen in love with his stories. That makes his books great regardless of what a few people choose to believe.
I do agree it is just as wrong to attack people for what they don’t like as it to attack them for what they do like. So if you friend wants to hate on Tolkien that is his choice but I do believe he is wrong in some of his criticism.
The characters are not as shallow as he implies nor is the plot. A couple of points to illustrate that.
1.The hero failed. Frodo the loveable and faithful hobbit in the end failed, he succumbed to the lure of the ring and chose to betray everyone and everything he loved and keep the ring. The firsy time I read the books that shocked me. I never expected Frodo to fail.
2.Boromir was a complex character who was basically a good man who only wanted to do what was right but failed miserably when he tried to force his will on his companions.
Was Boromir a hero or a villain? that should be an easy question in a simple story with boring characters.
3.Lady Galadriel was a female and during the time covered by TotR she was the second most powerful being in Middle Earth. If you read the Silmarillion there are numerous power females characters in Tolkien’s work.
4.The story revolved around sword and axe style fighting and guess what. There never were a lot women involved in that sort of fighting or anything other sort of warfare for that matter. Yes the occasional exception that proves the rule through out history war has been the providence of men. To criticize Tolkien for reflecting that is to criticize reality for not meeting your expectations.
His character’s had real motives, real histories and real flaws. I find them believe and more importantly I cared what happened to them. One of the greatest sins a story can have IMHO is characters who I don’t care about and who I could care less if the lived or died. The biggest failing of the Blair Witch Project? I wanted someone to kill all of the main characters. Tolkien not only made me want to love his heroes but he often made me sympathize with his villains. His villains for the most part were not villains simply because they were evil but because of tragic things that had happened to them. Gollum’s character was the exception he was simply the most obvious of a number of villains tha tall fit the basic them of tragic fallen people who had redeeming qualities but who were corrupted. You wanted them to break free of that corruption but they never did.
I think it is unfair to criticize Tolkien’s work as a pointless hero quest story and complain about him being anti-progress and pro-nature. Those are elements he cared deeply about and that is reflected in his work. Tolkien was a bit of a nutter and he truly loved trees. In one of his essays he rails against a woman who cut down a tree that was blocking her view. He felt trees were sacred. Anyone who reads and loves Tolkien can not help but to come away loving trees just a little bit more and questioning the lose of forest. It is hard to argue with success.
If you judge a work by how successful it was at achieving its goals then Tolkien's work was the work of genius.
tell your friend that it is unrealistic to think you can attack something people love and hold dear and expect there to be no push back. Thinking otherwise is simply unrealistic and shows a deep lack of understanding in human nature.
Besides when your books suck as bad as Moorcock’s book sucked you really have no right to look down your nose at others.
Tolkien as a sacred cow of fantasy
28/07/2010 10:02:39 PM
- 1647 Views
Nonsense, at least in part
28/07/2010 10:19:19 PM
- 1213 Views
I know there is a polite difference of opinion here
28/07/2010 10:40:42 PM
- 1023 Views
Have to agree.
28/07/2010 11:38:37 PM
- 1117 Views
It seemed to be that way with Harry Potter just when after it had started to get big.
29/07/2010 09:44:53 AM
- 940 Views
*cough* Twilight *cough*
29/07/2010 10:15:13 AM
- 976 Views
I was gonna mention that one too.
29/07/2010 10:35:17 AM
- 1051 Views
Mmm. I read an interesting article actually...
29/07/2010 08:24:04 PM
- 872 Views
That's a fair point, I guess...
29/07/2010 09:18:13 PM
- 1082 Views
mmm, except it's relevant to Bella too.
29/07/2010 10:43:03 PM
- 954 Views
That's my point, it's pretty much only relevant to Bella - only there is it shown prominently. *NM*
29/07/2010 10:59:54 PM
- 478 Views
Of course, since she's the main character, it matters rather a lot, yes? *NM*
30/07/2010 09:39:07 AM
- 468 Views
How much do you have to read to form an opinion?
29/07/2010 12:23:28 PM
- 1029 Views
To the end
29/07/2010 12:59:25 PM
- 901 Views
my reading time is too scarce to think that way
29/07/2010 01:21:26 PM
- 1106 Views
I agree, but HP is a good example of something you should keep reading
29/07/2010 08:27:20 PM
- 1078 Views
and I will
29/07/2010 09:13:03 PM
- 807 Views
The books mature as Harry does. You should really give it another shot *NM*
29/07/2010 03:00:37 PM
- 539 Views
He doesn't want to, so why should he? It's not like you or he is losing anything now
29/07/2010 06:15:58 PM
- 893 Views
It is a case of the "someone is wrong on the internet" thing, only much older
29/07/2010 06:27:07 PM
- 852 Views
well you have not failed completely
29/07/2010 06:50:15 PM
- 848 Views
Re: well you have not failed completely
29/07/2010 06:53:38 PM
- 896 Views
one quick question
29/07/2010 07:38:00 PM
- 937 Views
how many books do I have to read to get to the grown up books?
29/07/2010 06:42:37 PM
- 877 Views
None of them are "geared towards grown ups" - it's still a YA series.
29/07/2010 07:03:24 PM
- 864 Views
They're all "light reading" for adults, geared towards YA readers.
29/07/2010 08:29:01 PM
- 854 Views
Re: It seemed to be that way with Harry Potter just when after it had started to get big.
29/07/2010 08:45:58 PM
- 987 Views
it's not supposed to be on par with adult fantasy.
29/07/2010 08:49:16 PM
- 971 Views
I'd argue it's better than Jordan and others from a literary standpoint.
29/07/2010 09:14:07 PM
- 926 Views
I have always thought Jordan had some interesting themes but they were often ignored...
29/07/2010 09:27:12 PM
- 1070 Views
I agree Tolkien should not be a sacred cow or put on a pedestal overmuch.
28/07/2010 11:10:37 PM
- 1040 Views
I completely agree that there should be no sacred cows, and that applies to Tolkien.
28/07/2010 11:13:39 PM
- 953 Views
all art forms have sacred cows
29/07/2010 01:38:26 AM
- 1058 Views
Yeah, it was the line about women waiting at home while their men went to war that made me laugh.
29/07/2010 06:44:34 PM
- 947 Views
Disappointing.
29/07/2010 04:41:34 AM
- 1009 Views
I think you are ignoring the key fact that the Silmarillion was never published by Tolkien.
30/07/2010 01:48:14 PM
- 1253 Views
I find the Tolkien lovers to be obnoxious in their never ending masturbatory praise of his works.
30/07/2010 06:09:42 AM
- 1011 Views