Yes. Unless they were not yet hidden by the Fidelius Charm at that point. As I said, I don't have my books at hand. Does it state unequivocally that they were hidden by the charm when the letter was written?
Well, I checked, and its pretty much proved that they were indeed under the charm.
What I mean is, does the letter have a date, for example. That would constitute "proof". "Pretty much proved" isn't really enough. This is a total waste of time, not to mention in entirely the wrong place.
Dumbledore in the last part of DH:
You have guessed, I know, why the Cloak was in my possession
on the night your parents died. James had showed it to me just
a few days previously.
There. We know the Potters died about a week after the charm. The cloak left them a "few days" before their death. Now, it isn't certain that few days>around a week here, but it seems to be so.
Further, Lily says that Wormtail dropped by last weekend and looked down, which Harry immediately says must have been the last time he saw them, after which he betrayed them.
Plus (wow, never knew this tiny detail from book 1 could be so critical), we know that Harry was delivered to Petunia's house on a Tuesday night (When Mr. and Mrs. Durs ley woke up on the dull, grey Tuesday our story starts...). In the morning, word of the Potter's death was spreading, so the death must have been on Monday. The letter then had to have been written between the previous Sunday and the Sunday before their death. Since Lily says last weekend, rather than x number of days ago, this leads me to believe it was written between Thurday and Sunday. Either way, this is way less than one week before their death, meaning several things:
1) Since Lily says Bathilda visits often (with no indication of discontinuance), this means Bathilda must have been quite addled not to reveal that Sirius wasn't Secret Keeper.
2) Since well after the charm kicked into effect, James couldn't leave the house without the Invisibility Cloak, the theory that his family, and not his house, was the subject of the charm is completely disproved.
Because you have still not shown that they were hidden by the Charm at that point. I don't have the books here, and nothing of what you have quoted states that unequivocally.
Perhaps it might be better to hold off this discussion until we reach the relevant book.
See above. This book has suddenly become very relevant.
They could drop down to the post office? I thought they couldn't leave the house in your scenario.
If they left, they wouldn't be hidden. Just like outside of Grimmauld Plce, the Order isn't invisible.
I know that. I am just demonstrating that you are contradicting your earlier "proof".
See above. Also, that would be equally unproblematic if they were hidden, rather than their house. It contributes nothing to your argument if that were the case.
If they were hidden, how did they convince the people at the post office to give them anything? Or are you saying they sneaked in and took stuff?
I am not saying they did, I am saying it is an equally plausible explanation, and that your claim that it "proves" something therefore does not hold. I am not trying to prove a position, all I am arguing is that it is not as clear as you have been claiming.
Either way, turns out Petunia's vase was sent for Christmas, so that isn't a problem. Sirius's gift to Harry is, though. But since he was likely told by Pettigrew, maybe he could have an owl deliver?
*sigh*
That is just the point. How would the owl find the house?
That depends entirely on what they do for the Order. We are getting into the realm of unfounded speculation.
Oh come on! They fought Voldy four times and survived. Which means they were threatened. Which means they were seen, and which also means they moved their arses from Godric's Hollow (unless you want to claim they fought Voldemort at home 4 times). That's quite enough detail into what they did, and staying at home didn't come into it.
They fought Voldemort four times and survived. No arguments here. That meant leaving the house, of course. You are setting up straw man arguments. These were also times when they did have the invisibility cloak, for example. And before they had a child, I believe. There are any number of reasons they may have been in a different type of hiding before taking on fully fledged Fidelius Charm protection. We are talking about a short period, and whether they were necessarily covered by the charm at this point. Or, rather, I am discussing whether the things to declare "proven" are really "proven", because they cannot be "proven" if there are other plausible explanations. The fact is this part of the narrative is inconclusive. This is not surprising. It is a trait of fiction, or indeed of much writing.
See, it is perfectly possible to use "destination" and "sight" figuratively. It proves nothing either way.
How was it used figuratively? He saw a building and said he had reached his destination. The meaning is quite clear and direct.
What will constitute proof for you? A statement from Voldemort that he meant the house, and four witnesses to attest to his honesty and sanity? We're discussing stuff from a novel here. All we can take is the meaning of the words in it. And it clearly states that Voldemort thought the house was his destination, and he says that since he can see it, the charm must be broken.
Yes, we are discussing stuff from a novel. That is precisely my point. And the meaning of the words in a novel can rarely be taken interpreted in only one, unequivocal way. You are attempting to present your interpretation of events as "fact", which it is not. That is all I am disputing. I am not even trying to argue a point, as I am very aware that I do not have the books on hand, and I haven't read them in a while. All I am doing is questioning your claim to being the sole arbiter of the meaning of the words in the novel by presenting alternative interpretations of what you present as "proof".
"Destination" could have been used on anything from the death of the child to whoknowswhat. It functions as a very wide metaphor when used figuratively.
But how is it figurative in this instance? I'm quite at a loss over your confusion here.
It is not confusion. It is an awareness that language is not maths.
Because it is not conclusive. It is suggestive, but can be explained away.
Nope. See above on that. There's a plot hole here, pure and simple.
There may be a plot hole, but it is not pure and simple.
By that argument, they could have gone to Hogwarts and started killing children to force the Potters out. It is not an argument.
But Dumbledore was at Hogwarts. He wasn't at Godric's Hollow. Something being impossible at Hogwarts doesn't in any way mean it is impossible elsewhere.
Jesus Christ. Do you really not understand what I am trying to say? The point is that if Voldemort were to employ that sort of tactics, it would not matter what sort of invisible the Potters were. Hogwarts was just an example. They could go to a muggle cinema, they could go to Oxford Street, they could start killing randomly. I was just demonstrating to you that your argument is not an argument.
Now, can we drop this until it becomes relevant?
*MySmiley*
structured procrastinator
structured procrastinator
Harry Potter Re-read: The Philosopher's Stone - Final section underway! (& next book plans)
12/07/2010 08:27:51 AM
- 3023 Views
Chapters 1-3: Introducing Harry
12/07/2010 08:28:49 AM
- 1601 Views
Characterisation *NM*
12/07/2010 08:29:02 AM
- 899 Views
My thoughts, such as they are.
12/07/2010 04:09:55 PM
- 1652 Views
Re: My thoughts, such as they are. *spoilers*
12/07/2010 07:43:49 PM
- 1612 Views
Writing style *NM*
12/07/2010 08:29:18 AM
- 883 Views
It is very clear it is a children's book at this time
12/07/2010 07:18:14 PM
- 1669 Views
Vernon's slow descent into madness is great.
13/07/2010 04:03:26 AM
- 1636 Views
Re: Vernon's slow descent into madness is great.
13/07/2010 08:54:40 AM
- 1592 Views
Early themes *NM*
12/07/2010 08:29:37 AM
- 902 Views
Chapters 4-10: Making Friends at Hogwarts *NM*
12/07/2010 08:29:58 AM
- 831 Views
Impressions: thoughts about the school, the teachers, the enemies and the friends. *NM*
14/07/2010 08:29:38 AM
- 873 Views
I'd forgotten how annoying Hermione was
14/07/2010 01:48:13 PM
- 1510 Views
Yep. I like seeing her transformation in this story though.
14/07/2010 04:58:04 PM
- 1514 Views
Re: Yep. I like seeing her transformation in this story though.
14/07/2010 06:13:13 PM
- 1510 Views
Yes and, I think, this may be another candidate for early themes (from above)
14/07/2010 07:43:14 PM
- 1619 Views
Re: Impressions: thoughts about the school, the teachers, the enemies and the friends.
14/07/2010 04:22:54 PM
- 1651 Views
Agree. I loved the instant tension between Harry and Malfoy and with Harry and Snape too.
14/07/2010 05:03:20 PM
- 1779 Views
Some thoughts before I run off to the library again
14/07/2010 06:11:45 PM
- 1644 Views
It's interesting to look at the beginning of the story from Draco's point of view.
26/07/2010 03:08:38 PM
- 1729 Views
Re: It's interesting to look at the beginning of the story from Draco's point of view.
26/07/2010 03:18:02 PM
- 1391 Views
What about the magic?
14/07/2010 08:58:51 AM
- 1514 Views
The magic wasnt really developed at this point
14/07/2010 02:13:41 PM
- 1439 Views
Re: The magic wasnt really developed at this point
14/07/2010 08:53:08 PM
- 1683 Views
I think
14/07/2010 04:34:30 PM
- 1443 Views
Diagon Alley - Olivander's Foreshadowing
14/07/2010 05:11:40 PM
- 1729 Views
I really need a remembrall.
14/07/2010 08:57:10 PM
- 1588 Views
But it doesn't tell you what you've forgotten!
15/07/2010 02:51:47 AM
- 1726 Views
Chapters 11-17: Harry the Hero *NM*
12/07/2010 08:30:29 AM
- 845 Views
What'd you think of the ending? *NM*
15/07/2010 05:21:38 PM
- 811 Views
Two separate things:
15/07/2010 07:14:08 PM
- 1483 Views
Lovely
15/07/2010 09:00:11 PM
- 1567 Views
Haha
15/07/2010 09:16:16 PM
- 1653 Views
Re: Haha
15/07/2010 09:24:06 PM
- 1539 Views
But I thought all girls were made of sugar and spice and everything nice?
15/07/2010 09:26:53 PM
- 1441 Views
Oh, we are.
15/07/2010 09:35:17 PM
- 1346 Views
Honestly, dumbledore is a bit of an ass...
15/07/2010 10:48:32 PM
- 1346 Views
The decades of manipulation of a child doesn't bother you, but the House Cup does? *NM*
15/07/2010 11:37:54 PM
- 784 Views
Overall thoughts for the book
12/07/2010 08:31:37 AM
- 1528 Views
Foreshadowing and setting up the future
12/07/2010 08:32:10 AM
- 1433 Views
Harry's anger management issues?
12/07/2010 07:14:58 PM
- 1504 Views
Heh.
12/07/2010 07:40:40 PM
- 1544 Views
Nah, not deliberate.
12/07/2010 09:14:20 PM
- 1599 Views
Re: Nah, not deliberate.
12/07/2010 09:55:32 PM
- 1508 Views
I noticed a lot of this.
12/07/2010 07:22:54 PM
- 1627 Views
Re: I noticed a lot of this.
12/07/2010 07:39:25 PM
- 1554 Views
Re: I noticed a lot of this.
12/07/2010 07:45:32 PM
- 1544 Views
On Ginny:
12/07/2010 10:36:47 PM
- 1572 Views
This was my interpretation too and why I didn't pay much attention to it at the time. *NM*
13/07/2010 02:53:08 PM
- 744 Views
I've noticed a lot of the same things, probably because I've reread this book so many times...
13/07/2010 04:45:28 AM
- 1771 Views
Re: I've noticed a lot of the same things, probably because I've reread this book so many times...
13/07/2010 08:58:10 AM
- 1512 Views
So much (chapters 1-3) *spoilers*
12/07/2010 07:35:57 PM
- 1729 Views
I missed the school roof thing this time around too! Good catch there. *NM*
12/07/2010 09:22:21 PM
- 822 Views
The thing that tipped me off
12/07/2010 09:53:01 PM
- 1501 Views
Imagine how easy his test would have been if he remembered he'd done it as a child! *NM*
13/07/2010 03:20:27 PM
- 813 Views
You have to wonder why Hagrid and Dumbledore didn't suspect the truth about Sirius.
26/07/2010 04:04:05 PM
- 1434 Views
I re-read a couple weeks ago, and I was highly amused by all the little things she worked in
14/07/2010 04:09:19 AM
- 1575 Views
Some stuff (chapters 4-11)
14/07/2010 09:18:35 PM
- 1703 Views
Re: Some stuff (chapters 4-11)
14/07/2010 10:30:23 PM
- 1521 Views
I can answer your consistency question!
15/07/2010 02:35:42 AM
- 1628 Views
More stuff (chapters 12-17)
15/07/2010 08:55:34 PM
- 1383 Views
Tiny tiny inconsistency (?) in Ch. 12
17/07/2010 04:23:15 PM
- 1614 Views
What made this book (and the rest of the series) such a success?
12/07/2010 08:33:00 AM
- 1597 Views
I think it was mostly because it was a simple narrative with an identifiable protagnonist.
13/07/2010 11:59:06 PM
- 1605 Views
It has tons of things in it that every kid dreams of doing
14/07/2010 01:56:05 PM
- 1605 Views
It's a simple, well-done little book.
12/07/2010 07:46:48 PM
- 1592 Views
you don't read instructions, do you?
12/07/2010 07:49:24 PM
- 1641 Views
When did you pick up this book?
12/07/2010 11:30:46 PM
- 1536 Views
I was 10.
13/07/2010 04:13:44 AM
- 1684 Views
Ah book orders...man you just brought back nostalgic memories. I miss being a kid
13/07/2010 04:42:12 AM
- 1730 Views
1999
13/07/2010 09:03:03 AM
- 1599 Views
What do you mean by adult version?
13/07/2010 02:15:40 PM
- 1710 Views
They started publishing copies with 'adult' covers so people wouldn't be caught out reading
13/07/2010 11:53:46 PM
- 1659 Views
Got a boxed set for Christmas when Order of the Phoenix came out in hardback.
13/07/2010 03:06:42 PM
- 1651 Views
The first five were out, waited for HBP.
14/07/2010 06:20:39 AM
- 1733 Views
Very early. Beginning of 1999, so it had just come out in the States. *NM*
14/07/2010 08:54:06 AM
- 1005 Views
I held out quite awhile because I don't like "fads"
14/07/2010 02:04:37 PM
- 1564 Views
I did the same thing.
15/07/2010 06:39:16 AM
- 1670 Views
I would have, if I had known there was hype. I know I would have.
15/07/2010 03:28:50 PM
- 1692 Views
Aged 13 or 14 - a while before the first movie (which was Christmas 2001). *NM*
26/07/2010 04:13:55 PM
- 983 Views
Jesus Christ.
26/07/2010 05:04:46 PM
- 1705 Views
^That was me. *NM*
26/07/2010 09:55:49 PM
- 981 Views
Aw. I was just feeling flattered as I didn't think Tor had read that many of my posts. *NM*
27/07/2010 12:15:52 AM
- 1001 Views
Suggestions for the Re-read
12/07/2010 08:33:25 AM
- 1623 Views
This is my first official time participating and its been fun so far!
14/07/2010 05:16:48 PM
- 1566 Views
Unfortunately, no. (Silly me, pretending someone's still going to read all my posts... ) *NM*
26/07/2010 04:20:35 PM
- 1002 Views
Inconsistencies Re: the Potter's death...
15/07/2010 05:16:45 AM
- 1958 Views
Because they were tricked? They considered Peter and Sirius to be brothers.
15/07/2010 07:05:27 AM
- 1615 Views
That's nonsense..
16/07/2010 01:08:40 AM
- 1527 Views
Take it up with Rowling, since you don't believe me. *NM*
16/07/2010 08:19:58 AM
- 898 Views
What's there to believe?
18/07/2010 06:03:13 AM
- 1619 Views
Peter + Sirius = family. I don't know how to explain it more simply. *NM*
18/07/2010 08:58:20 AM
- 1024 Views
Re: That's nonsense..
16/07/2010 09:37:59 AM
- 1735 Views
Also
16/07/2010 11:17:51 AM
- 1965 Views
Huh?
18/07/2010 05:57:58 AM
- 1539 Views
But Camilla explained it!
18/07/2010 09:27:55 AM
- 1857 Views
I'm fairly certain you guys have that totally wrong...
18/07/2010 05:42:18 PM
- 1554 Views
Re: I'm fairly certain you guys have that totally wrong...
18/07/2010 05:51:36 PM
- 1567 Views
Re: I'm fairly certain you guys have that totally wrong...
18/07/2010 06:17:04 PM
- 1876 Views
Re: I'm fairly certain you guys have that totally wrong...
18/07/2010 06:28:27 PM
- 1569 Views
That bothers me too.
18/07/2010 07:17:14 PM
- 1633 Views
Re: That bothers me too.
18/07/2010 07:20:44 PM
- 1488 Views
Again...
18/07/2010 07:35:10 PM
- 1805 Views
Re: Again...
18/07/2010 08:00:55 PM
- 1590 Views
Re: Again...
19/07/2010 06:33:13 AM
- 1786 Views
Re: Again...
20/07/2010 04:45:16 PM
- 1605 Views
Yet another load of bosh.
21/07/2010 01:00:14 AM
- 1591 Views
It was just the sort of things these two daredevils would do...
14/09/2010 12:11:20 AM
- 2040 Views
Re: It was just the sort of things these two daredevils would do...
14/09/2010 09:20:46 AM
- 1503 Views
You have to wonder if that's actually true.
26/07/2010 04:23:31 PM
- 1574 Views
Since Lily and James were unable to leave the house
18/07/2010 07:14:21 PM
- 1550 Views
Re: Since Lily and James were unable to leave the house
26/07/2010 05:07:48 PM
- 1890 Views
^ And this, too, was me.
26/07/2010 09:58:07 PM
- 1605 Views