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Re: Again... Camilla Send a noteboard - 20/07/2010 04:45:16 PM

Yes. Unless they were not yet hidden by the Fidelius Charm at that point. As I said, I don't have my books at hand. Does it state unequivocally that they were hidden by the charm when the letter was written?

Well, I checked, and its pretty much proved that they were indeed under the charm.


What I mean is, does the letter have a date, for example. That would constitute "proof". "Pretty much proved" isn't really enough. This is a total waste of time, not to mention in entirely the wrong place.

Dumbledore in the last part of DH:

You have guessed, I know, why the Cloak was in my possession

on the night your parents died. James had showed it to me just

a few days previously.

There. We know the Potters died about a week after the charm. The cloak left them a "few days" before their death. Now, it isn't certain that few days>around a week here, but it seems to be so.

Further, Lily says that Wormtail dropped by last weekend and looked down, which Harry immediately says must have been the last time he saw them, after which he betrayed them.

Plus (wow, never knew this tiny detail from book 1 could be so critical), we know that Harry was delivered to Petunia's house on a Tuesday night (When Mr. and Mrs. Durs ley woke up on the dull, grey Tuesday our story starts...). In the morning, word of the Potter's death was spreading, so the death must have been on Monday. The letter then had to have been written between the previous Sunday and the Sunday before their death. Since Lily says last weekend, rather than x number of days ago, this leads me to believe it was written between Thurday and Sunday. Either way, this is way less than one week before their death, meaning several things:

1) Since Lily says Bathilda visits often (with no indication of discontinuance), this means Bathilda must have been quite addled not to reveal that Sirius wasn't Secret Keeper.

2) Since well after the charm kicked into effect, James couldn't leave the house without the Invisibility Cloak, the theory that his family, and not his house, was the subject of the charm is completely disproved.

Because you have still not shown that they were hidden by the Charm at that point. I don't have the books here, and nothing of what you have quoted states that unequivocally.

Perhaps it might be better to hold off this discussion until we reach the relevant book.

See above. This book has suddenly become very relevant. :P


They could drop down to the post office? I thought they couldn't leave the house in your scenario.

If they left, they wouldn't be hidden. Just like outside of Grimmauld Plce, the Order isn't invisible.


I know that. I am just demonstrating that you are contradicting your earlier "proof".

See above. Also, that would be equally unproblematic if they were hidden, rather than their house. It contributes nothing to your argument if that were the case.

If they were hidden, how did they convince the people at the post office to give them anything? Or are you saying they sneaked in and took stuff?


I am not saying they did, I am saying it is an equally plausible explanation, and that your claim that it "proves" something therefore does not hold. I am not trying to prove a position, all I am arguing is that it is not as clear as you have been claiming.

Either way, turns out Petunia's vase was sent for Christmas, so that isn't a problem. Sirius's gift to Harry is, though. But since he was likely told by Pettigrew, maybe he could have an owl deliver?


*sigh*
That is just the point. How would the owl find the house?

That depends entirely on what they do for the Order. We are getting into the realm of unfounded speculation.

Oh come on! They fought Voldy four times and survived. Which means they were threatened. Which means they were seen, and which also means they moved their arses from Godric's Hollow (unless you want to claim they fought Voldemort at home 4 times). That's quite enough detail into what they did, and staying at home didn't come into it.


They fought Voldemort four times and survived. No arguments here. That meant leaving the house, of course. You are setting up straw man arguments. These were also times when they did have the invisibility cloak, for example. And before they had a child, I believe. There are any number of reasons they may have been in a different type of hiding before taking on fully fledged Fidelius Charm protection. We are talking about a short period, and whether they were necessarily covered by the charm at this point. Or, rather, I am discussing whether the things to declare "proven" are really "proven", because they cannot be "proven" if there are other plausible explanations. The fact is this part of the narrative is inconclusive. This is not surprising. It is a trait of fiction, or indeed of much writing.

See, it is perfectly possible to use "destination" and "sight" figuratively. It proves nothing either way.

How was it used figuratively? He saw a building and said he had reached his destination. The meaning is quite clear and direct.

What will constitute proof for you? A statement from Voldemort that he meant the house, and four witnesses to attest to his honesty and sanity? We're discussing stuff from a novel here. All we can take is the meaning of the words in it. And it clearly states that Voldemort thought the house was his destination, and he says that since he can see it, the charm must be broken.


Yes, we are discussing stuff from a novel. That is precisely my point. And the meaning of the words in a novel can rarely be taken interpreted in only one, unequivocal way. You are attempting to present your interpretation of events as "fact", which it is not. That is all I am disputing. I am not even trying to argue a point, as I am very aware that I do not have the books on hand, and I haven't read them in a while. All I am doing is questioning your claim to being the sole arbiter of the meaning of the words in the novel by presenting alternative interpretations of what you present as "proof".

"Destination" could have been used on anything from the death of the child to whoknowswhat. It functions as a very wide metaphor when used figuratively.

But how is it figurative in this instance? I'm quite at a loss over your confusion here.


It is not confusion. It is an awareness that language is not maths.

Because it is not conclusive. It is suggestive, but can be explained away.

Nope. See above on that. There's a plot hole here, pure and simple.


There may be a plot hole, but it is not pure and simple.

By that argument, they could have gone to Hogwarts and started killing children to force the Potters out. It is not an argument.

But Dumbledore was at Hogwarts. He wasn't at Godric's Hollow. Something being impossible at Hogwarts doesn't in any way mean it is impossible elsewhere.


Jesus Christ. Do you really not understand what I am trying to say? The point is that if Voldemort were to employ that sort of tactics, it would not matter what sort of invisible the Potters were. Hogwarts was just an example. They could go to a muggle cinema, they could go to Oxford Street, they could start killing randomly. I was just demonstrating to you that your argument is not an argument.


Now, can we drop this until it becomes relevant?
*MySmiley*
structured procrastinator
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Harry Potter Re-read: The Philosopher's Stone - Final section underway! (& next book plans) - 12/07/2010 08:27:51 AM 3021 Views
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I felt bad for Neville. - 14/07/2010 09:03:49 PM 1595 Views
Indeed. - 14/07/2010 09:05:40 PM 1467 Views
But it doesn't tell you what you've forgotten! - 15/07/2010 02:51:47 AM 1723 Views
I know, right! - 15/07/2010 06:41:01 AM 1442 Views
Exactly. - 15/07/2010 03:22:18 PM 1354 Views
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Two separate things: - 15/07/2010 07:14:08 PM 1481 Views
I hear you - 15/07/2010 08:22:05 PM 1509 Views
Re: Two separate things: - 15/07/2010 08:48:21 PM 1499 Views
I can clarify some stuff for you - 15/07/2010 09:14:07 PM 1519 Views
One of the most sublime, wonderful moments of any book - 15/07/2010 08:18:29 PM 1352 Views
Yes! - 15/07/2010 10:39:11 PM 1534 Views
Lovely - 15/07/2010 09:00:11 PM 1565 Views
Haha - 15/07/2010 09:16:16 PM 1652 Views
Re: Haha - 15/07/2010 09:24:06 PM 1534 Views
But I thought all girls were made of sugar and spice and everything nice? - 15/07/2010 09:26:53 PM 1441 Views
Oh, we are. - 15/07/2010 09:35:17 PM 1343 Views
Ah like vodka vs. wine coolers? *NM* - 15/07/2010 09:48:26 PM 799 Views
Gin - 15/07/2010 09:49:33 PM 1464 Views
I was 16. - 15/07/2010 10:49:33 PM 1340 Views
So was I - 15/07/2010 10:54:24 PM 1385 Views
Honestly, dumbledore is a bit of an ass... - 15/07/2010 10:48:32 PM 1343 Views
Heresy! - 15/07/2010 10:55:28 PM 1394 Views
As I indicated below, I had some issues. - 16/07/2010 03:05:05 AM 1653 Views
Re: As I indicated below, I had some issues. - 16/07/2010 11:14:56 AM 1550 Views
In fairness, it's Hogwarts itself that is all but impregnable. - 26/07/2010 03:55:02 PM 1454 Views
A funny thing I noticed - 15/07/2010 09:00:42 PM 1565 Views
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Overall thoughts for the book - 12/07/2010 08:31:37 AM 1525 Views
Foreshadowing and setting up the future - 12/07/2010 08:32:10 AM 1433 Views
Harry's anger management issues? - 12/07/2010 07:14:58 PM 1500 Views
Heh. - 12/07/2010 07:40:40 PM 1542 Views
Nah, not deliberate. - 12/07/2010 09:14:20 PM 1597 Views
Re: Nah, not deliberate. - 12/07/2010 09:55:32 PM 1505 Views
Re: Nah, not deliberate. - 13/07/2010 03:02:59 PM 1442 Views
Re: Nah, not deliberate. - 13/07/2010 03:04:42 PM 1572 Views
I noticed a lot of this. - 12/07/2010 07:22:54 PM 1622 Views
Re: I noticed a lot of this. - 12/07/2010 07:39:25 PM 1553 Views
Re: I noticed a lot of this. - 12/07/2010 07:45:32 PM 1543 Views
~smug~ - 13/07/2010 02:09:15 PM 1516 Views
Indeed. - 13/07/2010 02:10:41 PM 1753 Views
This response implies the experience of being both?? - 13/07/2010 03:23:29 PM 1493 Views
On Ginny: - 12/07/2010 10:36:47 PM 1571 Views
So much (chapters 1-3) *spoilers* - 12/07/2010 07:35:57 PM 1725 Views
Hm. - 12/07/2010 07:38:05 PM 1536 Views
Re: Hm. - 12/07/2010 07:39:08 PM 1608 Views
Re: Hm. - 12/07/2010 07:39:53 PM 1410 Views
Re: Hm. - 12/07/2010 07:44:16 PM 1314 Views
Re: Hm. - 13/07/2010 04:41:12 AM 1431 Views
Re: Hm. - 13/07/2010 08:55:09 AM 1399 Views
I missed the school roof thing this time around too! Good catch there. *NM* - 12/07/2010 09:22:21 PM 820 Views
The thing that tipped me off - 12/07/2010 09:53:01 PM 1497 Views
Some stuff (chapters 4-11) - 14/07/2010 09:18:35 PM 1702 Views
Re: Some stuff (chapters 4-11) - 14/07/2010 10:30:23 PM 1518 Views
Re: Some stuff (chapters 4-11) - 14/07/2010 10:55:01 PM 1465 Views
Re: Some stuff (chapters 4-11) - 14/07/2010 11:05:59 PM 1493 Views
I can answer your consistency question! - 15/07/2010 02:35:42 AM 1627 Views
You are a clever cookie. - 15/07/2010 08:14:25 AM 1499 Views
Yes - 15/07/2010 03:30:36 PM 1352 Views
Ooh, yes. - 16/07/2010 12:19:13 AM 1325 Views
More stuff (chapters 12-17) - 15/07/2010 08:55:34 PM 1380 Views
Re: More stuff (chapters 12-17) - 15/07/2010 09:19:13 PM 1452 Views
Tiny tiny inconsistency (?) in Ch. 12 - 17/07/2010 04:23:15 PM 1614 Views
Re: Tiny tiny inconsistency (?) in Ch. 12 - 17/07/2010 04:28:04 PM 1491 Views
Re: Tiny tiny inconsistency (?) in Ch. 12 - 17/07/2010 07:12:39 PM 1740 Views
I like it. Thank you. - 20/07/2010 12:53:37 AM 1658 Views
What made this book (and the rest of the series) such a success? - 12/07/2010 08:33:00 AM 1593 Views
I have no idea *spoilers* - 12/07/2010 07:47:58 PM 1654 Views
I agree... - 12/07/2010 09:19:59 PM 1683 Views
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Kid? - 14/07/2010 02:01:30 PM 1619 Views
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Not even just the super stuff Deadsy mentions. - 14/07/2010 04:38:46 PM 1726 Views
It's a simple, well-done little book. - 12/07/2010 07:46:48 PM 1589 Views
you don't read instructions, do you? - 12/07/2010 07:49:24 PM 1637 Views
Heh. - 12/07/2010 07:50:23 PM 1580 Views
Re: Heh. - 12/07/2010 07:51:40 PM 1589 Views
Awwww! - 12/07/2010 07:52:19 PM 1488 Views
- 12/07/2010 07:52:52 PM 1613 Views
Wha? - 12/07/2010 07:50:44 PM 1627 Views
Re: Wha? - 12/07/2010 07:52:21 PM 1614 Views
Pff. - 12/07/2010 07:54:54 PM 1609 Views
*NM* - 12/07/2010 07:56:03 PM 1015 Views
When did you pick up this book? - 12/07/2010 11:30:46 PM 1534 Views
I was 10. - 13/07/2010 04:13:44 AM 1680 Views
I was 16. - 13/07/2010 08:24:02 AM 1605 Views
1999 - 13/07/2010 09:03:03 AM 1596 Views
What do you mean by adult version? - 13/07/2010 02:15:40 PM 1708 Views
Re: What do you mean by adult version? - 13/07/2010 02:17:40 PM 1585 Views
Just before the first movie came out - 13/07/2010 02:17:42 PM 1753 Views
When Prisoner of Azkaban was a hardback. - 13/07/2010 02:23:57 PM 1597 Views
Just after Goblet of Fire was published. - 13/07/2010 11:50:38 PM 1661 Views
Just before Goblet of Fire came out. - 14/07/2010 04:04:21 AM 1633 Views
The first five were out, waited for HBP. - 14/07/2010 06:20:39 AM 1731 Views
You're making me want to talk about toadface - 14/07/2010 02:06:25 PM 1647 Views
Sorry! - 15/07/2010 06:36:11 AM 1682 Views
I held out quite awhile because I don't like "fads" - 14/07/2010 02:04:37 PM 1562 Views
Lol! - 14/07/2010 08:54:47 PM 1682 Views
I did the same thing. - 15/07/2010 06:39:16 AM 1667 Views
Re: I did the same thing. - 15/07/2010 10:01:04 AM 1854 Views
Re: I did the same thing. - 15/07/2010 05:44:28 PM 1725 Views
I would have, if I had known there was hype. I know I would have. - 15/07/2010 03:28:50 PM 1690 Views
- 15/07/2010 05:47:01 PM 1747 Views
I think I was first! - 23/07/2010 07:05:08 PM 1693 Views
Aged 13 or 14 - a while before the first movie (which was Christmas 2001). *NM* - 26/07/2010 04:13:55 PM 981 Views
Jesus Christ. - 26/07/2010 05:04:46 PM 1701 Views
^That was me. *NM* - 26/07/2010 09:55:49 PM 979 Views
I was going to ask if it was. *NM* - 26/07/2010 10:04:59 PM 962 Views
Suggestions for the Re-read - 12/07/2010 08:33:25 AM 1620 Views
I like it so far - 13/07/2010 10:16:49 AM 1638 Views
I can try that for the next book. - 13/07/2010 11:21:01 PM 1615 Views
Can we get chapter discussions everyday? *NM* - 15/07/2010 06:40:30 PM 950 Views
Inconsistencies Re: the Potter's death... - 15/07/2010 05:16:45 AM 1957 Views
Because they were tricked? They considered Peter and Sirius to be brothers. - 15/07/2010 07:05:27 AM 1611 Views
That's nonsense.. - 16/07/2010 01:08:40 AM 1526 Views
Take it up with Rowling, since you don't believe me. *NM* - 16/07/2010 08:19:58 AM 897 Views
What's there to believe? - 18/07/2010 06:03:13 AM 1616 Views
Re: That's nonsense.. - 16/07/2010 09:37:59 AM 1734 Views
Also - 16/07/2010 11:17:51 AM 1962 Views
You are correct! There is no inconsistency - 17/07/2010 04:17:35 AM 1655 Views
Huh? - 18/07/2010 05:57:58 AM 1536 Views
But Camilla explained it! - 18/07/2010 09:27:55 AM 1856 Views
Correction - 18/07/2010 10:58:59 AM 1641 Views
I'm fairly certain you guys have that totally wrong... - 18/07/2010 05:42:18 PM 1552 Views
Re: I'm fairly certain you guys have that totally wrong... - 18/07/2010 05:51:36 PM 1565 Views
Re: I'm fairly certain you guys have that totally wrong... - 18/07/2010 06:17:04 PM 1872 Views
Re: I'm fairly certain you guys have that totally wrong... - 18/07/2010 06:28:27 PM 1569 Views
That bothers me too. - 18/07/2010 07:17:14 PM 1631 Views
Re: That bothers me too. - 18/07/2010 07:20:44 PM 1481 Views
Yet... - 18/07/2010 07:47:56 PM 1570 Views
Re: Yet... - 18/07/2010 08:02:31 PM 1612 Views
To quote Dumbledore... - 19/07/2010 05:57:23 AM 1516 Views
Again... - 18/07/2010 07:35:10 PM 1803 Views
Re: Again... - 18/07/2010 08:00:55 PM 1587 Views
Re: Again... - 19/07/2010 06:33:13 AM 1785 Views
Re: Again... - 20/07/2010 04:45:16 PM 1604 Views
Yet another load of bosh. - 21/07/2010 01:00:14 AM 1591 Views
Then let's leave it. - 21/07/2010 06:48:45 AM 1690 Views
Re: Then let's leave it. - 21/07/2010 04:19:35 PM 1615 Views
My two cents - 19/07/2010 06:11:30 AM 1663 Views
It was just the sort of things these two daredevils would do... - 14/09/2010 12:11:20 AM 2036 Views
Re: It was just the sort of things these two daredevils would do... - 14/09/2010 09:20:46 AM 1500 Views
You have to wonder if that's actually true. - 26/07/2010 04:23:31 PM 1569 Views
Re: You have to wonder if that's actually true. - 26/07/2010 05:06:43 PM 1685 Views
I don't know that I'd call it "see through Pettigrew"... - 26/07/2010 06:22:19 PM 1593 Views
^That was me, too. Oh, dear. - 26/07/2010 09:56:43 PM 1763 Views
Since Lily and James were unable to leave the house - 18/07/2010 07:14:21 PM 1549 Views
Re: Since Lily and James were unable to leave the house - 26/07/2010 05:07:48 PM 1885 Views
^ And this, too, was me. - 26/07/2010 09:58:07 PM 1600 Views
Re: ^ And this, too, was me. - 26/07/2010 10:05:41 PM 1536 Views
- 26/07/2010 10:07:36 PM 1415 Views

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