Active Users:350 Time:04/07/2025 07:28:36 AM
Re: Chapterhouse: Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) DomA Send a noteboard - 10/05/2010 01:24:33 AM
But here in Chapterhouse: Dune, through the careful denials placed in strategic places, it seems Idaho may be akin to what the Bene Gesserit had hoped to produce before Muad'Dib appeared: a Kwisatz Haderach, a shortener of the paths.


And instead produced a new sort of Leto II, who this time had evolved to the point he could safely merge with and control not the worms but the machines, balanced out by new Leto II ghola merging back with the worms, creating Shai Hulud for real.

I think one of the general tangents pursued by Herbert was that the BG's program (and the Tleilaxu) was using Man and genetics to transform humanity into a race of "thinking machines". It had a machinistic view of Man, with precise characteristics and precise purposes it sought to obtain, and this would have ended evolution, and the human race as such, readying it for enslavement and annihilation when the Machines returned, and Leto II had foreseen their return. Man feared the thinking machines, but was turning into a flesh and blood version of them, and Leto planted the seed to prevent that, including giving them millenia of a machine-like stagnation and order in his Imperium. The Humans otherwise would succeed were the original thinking machines had failed with humanity. The HM were hard at work trying to control and program the fundamental forces like sexual desire that drove the survival of the species, which was crossing a line the BG of Paul's time had not.

Leto II's Golden Path, and the "wild genes" introduced into humanity, made it impossible to obtain predictable results from genetic programs, old school or gholas. Sheena, Idaho, Teg.. they escaped. The God Emperor gave humanity the "random" characteristics that would make them unpredictable to the machines.

Dune 7 confronted these "new humans" (and the gholas of the original cast) with their wild genes with the machine-like new Face Dancers and the remnants of the Machines of the Bulterian Jihad that now controlled them.

IMO, Herbert always intended to deceive us at the end of Chapterhouse into thinking Marty and Daniel were Face Dancers/their masters. I think the infernal duo was actually following Frank's outline by revealing those two as Machines disguised as the gods of the new Face Dancers. Most readers at the time disagreed with my opinion (and I suspect most do), but I base it largely on the similar themes and ideas Herbert was exploring in parallel in his series with Bill Ransom at the same time he was developping the last Dune trilogy.

I have no opinion, however, whether the two machine characters Daniel and Marty turn out to owe much to Frank's notes or had to be created pretty much from the ground up by the infernal duo after nothing but something as basic as "these two will be BJ machine minds - needs to be developped", though my guts tells me Erasmus is nothing but a very poor execution of a concept sketched by Frank... there's something at the core of the character of Erasmus which is too intelligent for him to be BH/KJA's concept... Erasmus is too much a variation on other AI created by Frank, like Ship, too intelligently merged with the Dune universe and Dune themes.. despite the fact the duo proved unable to really bring this character to life. The name itself speaks in favour of a creation by Frank, I think.). Generally speaking, through the narrative dross that's Dune 7, many of the ideas are too intelligent and too characteristic to be anything but Frank's, because the House and BJ prequels have shown how incapable the duo was at any thinking of this sort. I don't think a miracle happened and with Dune 7 the duo was suddenly capable of creating even some Frank-like concepts of their own. What I see is rather that despite their limited talent, they weren't able to completely strip the book of Frank's intelligence.... they just wrapped them in their dumbed-down stuff (it's nowhere as bad as their prequels, mind you).

There's this slim possibility the duo turned to steal the ideas in Franks's other books because they were quite incapable of introducing their own to fill the intellectual gaps, but I'm fairly confident it's more a case of attempting to flesh out the basic ideas set in an outline.

Where these ideas lost much of their interest, and much of their intelligence, is when the duo attempted to work them backward into their prequels. They've "tainted" Dune 7 with their back story.

I'm sort of convinced, for instance, that it's Frank who decided the conscience of the woman who invented space folding had moved to another plane of existence and was a kind of God to the Navigators and she would guide Idaho. That's a terribly Frank-like concept, very Fanny-May in The Whipping Star. This got ruined by the fact it wasn't introduced in Dune 7, where it fitted with the rest of the motifs of evolution spiritual and physical and the nature of religion and God, but a whole pedestrian, dumb and boring back story for Norma was written into the BJ prequels. A completely useless backstory for the Tleiaxu was also written that we didn't need to know in details, nor before Dune 7. Erasmus also got ruined by his back story during the BJ. If Frank has created the concept of the Titans (I'm not so sure), this is yet something else we didn't need to know about until Dune 7, and we most definitely didn't need to see them in action in BJ prequels where the perhaps cool concept was turned into ridiculous Transformer-like cyborgs. And yet, those Titans are in the end an almost a proto-version of the Final KH Duncan turns into. Frank's idea badly executed, or KJA/BH coming up with something original that fit for once? I don't know.

Where I think the duo failed the most in Dune 7 is in their use of the "original cast" gholas. It's very obvious in Dune 6 Frank was going there in the next book, but it's one area in which I think probable his outline didn't give much, or at least it turned into one of the definitely weaker aspects of the "duology". Another is the continuation of the Murbella story line. The action-oriented/episodic nature of the books is also very much to blame on the infernal duo as well, based on their previous Dune books.

But overall, these ideas of super-worms, ubermensch, mutations, the nature of God, and the perhaps most of all this idea that humans yearning for God may have ended up creating a false God that enslaved them are IMO terribly Herbert-like. These are all variations on themes, other aspects of themes, he was exploring with Bill Ransom in the Jesus Incident/Lazarus Effect/Ascension Factor.

This message last edited by DomA on 10/05/2010 at 01:29:58 AM
Reply to message
Frank Herbert, Dune Chronicles (series reviews within) - 16/04/2010 04:11:40 AM 1966 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune - 16/04/2010 06:09:49 PM 1083 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune - 17/04/2010 12:08:06 AM 1270 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune - 17/04/2010 02:33:38 PM 1200 Views
I was using a fairly precise term when I said "ecological" - 18/04/2010 12:13:14 AM 1199 Views
Re: I was using a fairly precise term when I said "ecological" - 18/04/2010 03:34:33 AM 1253 Views
Please read linked interview...as I call bullshit. Also, why are your walls white? - 18/04/2010 05:18:07 AM 1057 Views
Re: Please read linked interview...as I call bullshit. Also, why are your walls white? - 19/04/2010 06:15:26 PM 1090 Views
That was most of my issue. - 21/04/2010 12:12:56 AM 963 Views
Re: That was most of my issue. - 21/04/2010 06:33:14 PM 933 Views
Re: That was most of my issue. - 29/04/2010 11:38:26 PM 917 Views
Just because something plays a dominate role doesn't make it a theme - 21/04/2010 02:09:42 PM 1059 Views
A theme is merely a dominant strain in a story; there can be more than one theme present - 21/04/2010 11:21:38 PM 991 Views
Re: A theme is merely a dominant strain in a story; there can be more than one theme present - 22/04/2010 04:58:01 AM 970 Views
Good points - 22/04/2010 09:19:45 PM 1012 Views
Re: Good points - 22/04/2010 10:55:21 PM 959 Views
when you call it human ecology I come much closer to agreeing - 22/04/2010 02:16:58 PM 990 Views
Not really sure how Larry's definition is archaic. - 19/04/2010 07:52:27 PM 1079 Views
Re: Not really sure how Larry's definition is archaic. - 20/04/2010 07:04:40 PM 950 Views
You're not using "archaic" correctly - 20/04/2010 10:07:31 PM 944 Views
Your patronizing manner aside, that's not "archaic" at all. - 21/04/2010 01:46:50 AM 838 Views
doesn't that regulate the point down to interesting trivia? - 21/04/2010 02:36:38 PM 992 Views
Re: Your patronizing manner aside, that's not "archaic" at all. - 21/04/2010 06:23:24 PM 1072 Views
Funny the things people focus on - 21/04/2010 11:24:59 PM 965 Views
Re: Funny the things people focus on - 23/04/2010 05:28:54 PM 967 Views
People who see this as an ecological book are missing the point of the book - 16/04/2010 06:28:40 PM 1445 Views
Books can have more than one theme. Great books almost always do. *NM* - 16/04/2010 07:15:11 PM 472 Views
I agree with that I just never really the ecological theme to Dune - 16/04/2010 10:12:26 PM 1144 Views
Ecology goes more than one way - 17/04/2010 12:12:45 AM 1099 Views
There are several points to the book/series - 17/04/2010 12:11:38 AM 1165 Views
Everyone get something different from a book - 19/04/2010 07:01:51 PM 1348 Views
I believe those themes become more pronounced later in the series - 20/04/2010 10:09:36 PM 1111 Views
I remember having hated every single character of this book. Some random thoughts - 17/04/2010 05:08:25 PM 1292 Views
I hope you got to Darwi Odrade - 21/04/2010 03:44:27 PM 987 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune - 17/04/2010 08:05:16 PM 1548 Views
I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom - 17/04/2010 10:22:27 PM 1347 Views
Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom - 18/04/2010 04:38:10 AM 1302 Views
Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom - 19/04/2010 04:04:43 AM 1228 Views
Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom - 22/04/2010 04:31:26 AM 988 Views
I thought all of Dune had begun as a serial in a SF magazine. *NM* - 22/04/2010 01:58:22 PM 417 Views
And Dune Messiah as well was serialized at first, in Galaxy *NM* - 22/04/2010 09:31:54 PM 421 Views
Dune Messiah (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 19/04/2010 08:42:18 AM 1210 Views
Re: Dune Messiah (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 21/04/2010 03:33:46 PM 937 Views
I didn't see that in Alia - 21/04/2010 11:27:22 PM 888 Views
One of my favorite series! - 21/04/2010 03:30:57 PM 888 Views
I didn't "miss it" as much as I chose to deemphasize it - 21/04/2010 11:29:50 PM 809 Views
Re: I didn't "miss it" as much as I chose to deemphasize it - 22/04/2010 04:02:26 PM 930 Views
His style doesn't appeal to me as much, unfortunately - 22/04/2010 09:17:21 PM 815 Views
You might want to track down his short stories one day... - 23/04/2010 02:06:09 PM 1046 Views
Children of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 22/04/2010 06:47:04 AM 1008 Views
See...I think I made a mistake in my reading of Dune - 22/04/2010 07:26:28 AM 983 Views
Depends - 22/04/2010 08:01:39 AM 891 Views
Re: Depends - 22/04/2010 11:12:15 PM 1237 Views
read something else - 23/04/2010 07:49:34 PM 880 Views
LA Times article on Dune (4/18/2010) - 23/04/2010 10:59:00 AM 838 Views
God Emperor of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 25/04/2010 02:03:37 AM 1115 Views
Heretics of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 28/04/2010 06:02:54 AM 851 Views
Re: Heretics of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 29/04/2010 03:26:28 PM 928 Views
I read the wiki synopses of those two books - 29/04/2010 09:44:07 PM 884 Views
Re: I read the wiki synopses of those two books - 10/05/2010 04:10:49 AM 1229 Views
Chapterhouse: Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 30/04/2010 02:31:10 PM 1035 Views
Re: Chapterhouse: Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 10/05/2010 01:24:33 AM 1079 Views

Reply to Message