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OK, that makes a bit more sense, as I wasn't for sure what you were arguing at first Larry Send a noteboard - 22/04/2010 09:14:46 PM
No, I was purely using "Oedipus Rex" as an example because in the order of Sophocles' plays, "Oedipus Rex" (translated as Oedipus the King), lead to "Oedipus at Colonus" and was ended by "Antigone" as a tragic cycle. The order is very similar to "Dune", "Dune Messiah" and "Children of Dune"'s places in the overall series. The first trilogy is overall a tragedy, so I see many parallels, especially since Oedipus is blind for the entirety of "Oedipus at Colonus" similar to Paul's blindness and wanderings after a certain point in "Dune Messiah", as well as the idea that tremendous forces have to be confronted by Oedipus' progeny in the form of his daughter, Antigone, while it falls to Leto II to go further and do the hard work necessary to ensure the Golden Path is successful. Indeed you can look at "Dune" as being about what happens when a superbeing uniting male and female aspects is created - he didn't have an incestual relationship in the physical sense, but he understood his mother as his father did, and had access to those memories. As Jessica later says about Leto II and Ghanima when they reproduce those memories, "it was an Abomination" - she felt stripped bare before them with knowledge that no child should know firsthand. It is the gift of Jessica's heritage as a Bene Gesserit and genetic bloodlines that opened up the prescient abilities in the Atreides line.


OK, that makes a bit more sense, as I was wondering if you were talking about the specific tragic points in those plays, but yes, in structure there are indeed several parallels. And yes, it is discomforting in the extreme to imagine a situation similar to what Jessica experiences with her progeny.

But, yes, Aliah has prophetic powers in "Dune" and "Dune Messiah" - they are waning in the second book, though, which is why she started taking more massive dosages of spice and how she became an Abomination. She was not a full blown Kwisatz Haderach, which makes sense since she was to be the female Atreides that would have given birth to a Atreides/Harkonnen son that would have the full powers. This is alluded to in her early birth, where she already was being talked about by the other Fremen because she knew things that had not happened, yet, and already had the maturity of an adult. You might have missed this in "Dune", but she uses her limited prescient abilities to manifest thoughts into Mohiam's mind - she uses this to communicate with Paul:


I was thinking more in terms of the third book, but yes, you are correct. I do remember a few scenes, but since for the most part her powers aren't as prescient as Paul's or Leto II's and since I was reminded more of the more minor prescients that appear in Dune Messiah, I guess I did overlook what you pointed out.

Of all the uses of time-vision, this was the strangest. "I have breasted the future to place my words where only you can hear them," Alia had said. "Even you cannot do that, my brother. I find it an interesting play. And ... oh, yes — I've killed our grandfather, the demented old Baron. He had very little pain."


Indeed.

Also, in the training sequence where Alia is fighting the sword training mechanism, she remarks that she is now the match of about seven Ginaz swordmasters. Duncan himself never gave his rank, but the implication is that she has pursued the utmost physical capabilities of her prana-bindu training to exceed what he (and Paul) were capable of. This lead her to start exploring the Bene Gesserit forbidden controls of manipulating the aging process and etc. It is this same ultimate control that she uses to wrest muscular control from the Abomination of the Barons' control, and commit suicide.


True, although I don't think I'd go so far as to presume that this exceeded what Paul was capable of achieving. Rather, I would argue that he chose to abide by limits and conventions (as seen ultimately in Dune Messiah), while Alia's failure to restrict herself helped lead to her downfall. Minor quibble, though.

Alia is an interesting character because F.H. gave hints of what she was capable of, showed the obvious evolution and did very well in following through on them throughout the trilogy without giving up all of her secrets. She comes across as a very relatable person at all steps of her sad journey.


Agreed. I didn't spend time on this element in my reviews to date, but I do agree that her character has quite a bit of depth to it. No accident that she didn't get as much "air time" as several other key characters.

I really love these characters and my affections have grown after multiple re-readings, especially having read Frank Herberts' biography and etc, and I can appreciate how he placed jewel-like "hints" as to real motivations throughout the series.

In the end, the series had a great resolution in "Chapterhouse", with each human now being fully "human".


Looking forward to refreshing my memory on that detail. Best part of writing these re-read commentaries is how many responses are generated that lead to things to consider further down the line :D
Illusions fall like the husk of a fruit, one after another, and the fruit is experience. - Narrator, Sylvie

Je suis méchant.
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Frank Herbert, Dune Chronicles (series reviews within) - 16/04/2010 04:11:40 AM 1811 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune - 16/04/2010 06:09:49 PM 959 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune - 17/04/2010 12:08:06 AM 1120 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune - 17/04/2010 02:33:38 PM 1052 Views
I was using a fairly precise term when I said "ecological" - 18/04/2010 12:13:14 AM 1056 Views
Re: I was using a fairly precise term when I said "ecological" - 18/04/2010 03:34:33 AM 1086 Views
Please read linked interview...as I call bullshit. Also, why are your walls white? - 18/04/2010 05:18:07 AM 925 Views
Re: Please read linked interview...as I call bullshit. Also, why are your walls white? - 19/04/2010 06:15:26 PM 923 Views
That was most of my issue. - 21/04/2010 12:12:56 AM 810 Views
Re: That was most of my issue. - 21/04/2010 06:33:14 PM 791 Views
Re: That was most of my issue. - 29/04/2010 11:38:26 PM 762 Views
Just because something plays a dominate role doesn't make it a theme - 21/04/2010 02:09:42 PM 894 Views
A theme is merely a dominant strain in a story; there can be more than one theme present - 21/04/2010 11:21:38 PM 866 Views
Re: A theme is merely a dominant strain in a story; there can be more than one theme present - 22/04/2010 04:58:01 AM 812 Views
Good points - 22/04/2010 09:19:45 PM 844 Views
Re: Good points - 22/04/2010 10:55:21 PM 807 Views
when you call it human ecology I come much closer to agreeing - 22/04/2010 02:16:58 PM 827 Views
Not really sure how Larry's definition is archaic. - 19/04/2010 07:52:27 PM 931 Views
Re: Not really sure how Larry's definition is archaic. - 20/04/2010 07:04:40 PM 788 Views
You're not using "archaic" correctly - 20/04/2010 10:07:31 PM 805 Views
Your patronizing manner aside, that's not "archaic" at all. - 21/04/2010 01:46:50 AM 713 Views
doesn't that regulate the point down to interesting trivia? - 21/04/2010 02:36:38 PM 838 Views
Re: Your patronizing manner aside, that's not "archaic" at all. - 21/04/2010 06:23:24 PM 915 Views
Funny the things people focus on - 21/04/2010 11:24:59 PM 807 Views
Re: Funny the things people focus on - 23/04/2010 05:28:54 PM 819 Views
People who see this as an ecological book are missing the point of the book - 16/04/2010 06:28:40 PM 1287 Views
Books can have more than one theme. Great books almost always do. *NM* - 16/04/2010 07:15:11 PM 414 Views
I agree with that I just never really the ecological theme to Dune - 16/04/2010 10:12:26 PM 997 Views
Ecology goes more than one way - 17/04/2010 12:12:45 AM 946 Views
There are several points to the book/series - 17/04/2010 12:11:38 AM 1025 Views
Everyone get something different from a book - 19/04/2010 07:01:51 PM 1200 Views
I remember having hated every single character of this book. Some random thoughts - 17/04/2010 05:08:25 PM 1155 Views
I hope you got to Darwi Odrade - 21/04/2010 03:44:27 PM 831 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune - 17/04/2010 08:05:16 PM 1393 Views
I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom - 17/04/2010 10:22:27 PM 1189 Views
Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom - 18/04/2010 04:38:10 AM 1116 Views
Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom - 19/04/2010 04:04:43 AM 1071 Views
Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom - 22/04/2010 04:31:26 AM 829 Views
I thought all of Dune had begun as a serial in a SF magazine. *NM* - 22/04/2010 01:58:22 PM 358 Views
And Dune Messiah as well was serialized at first, in Galaxy *NM* - 22/04/2010 09:31:54 PM 364 Views
Dune Messiah (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 19/04/2010 08:42:18 AM 1060 Views
Re: Dune Messiah (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 21/04/2010 03:33:46 PM 805 Views
I didn't see that in Alia - 21/04/2010 11:27:22 PM 711 Views
There were a few scenes displaying Alia's abilities/mindset. (spoilers) - 22/04/2010 03:54:32 PM 729 Views
OK, that makes a bit more sense, as I wasn't for sure what you were arguing at first - 22/04/2010 09:14:46 PM 833 Views
One of my favorite series! - 21/04/2010 03:30:57 PM 731 Views
I didn't "miss it" as much as I chose to deemphasize it - 21/04/2010 11:29:50 PM 655 Views
Re: I didn't "miss it" as much as I chose to deemphasize it - 22/04/2010 04:02:26 PM 761 Views
His style doesn't appeal to me as much, unfortunately - 22/04/2010 09:17:21 PM 660 Views
You might want to track down his short stories one day... - 23/04/2010 02:06:09 PM 886 Views
Children of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 22/04/2010 06:47:04 AM 870 Views
See...I think I made a mistake in my reading of Dune - 22/04/2010 07:26:28 AM 841 Views
Depends - 22/04/2010 08:01:39 AM 742 Views
Re: Depends - 22/04/2010 11:12:15 PM 996 Views
read something else - 23/04/2010 07:49:34 PM 733 Views
LA Times article on Dune (4/18/2010) - 23/04/2010 10:59:00 AM 700 Views
God Emperor of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 25/04/2010 02:03:37 AM 954 Views
Heretics of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 28/04/2010 06:02:54 AM 708 Views
Re: Heretics of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 29/04/2010 03:26:28 PM 770 Views
I read the wiki synopses of those two books - 29/04/2010 09:44:07 PM 754 Views
Re: I read the wiki synopses of those two books - 10/05/2010 04:10:49 AM 1079 Views
Chapterhouse: Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 30/04/2010 02:31:10 PM 890 Views
Re: Chapterhouse: Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 10/05/2010 01:24:33 AM 910 Views

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