OK, that makes a bit more sense, as I wasn't for sure what you were arguing at first
Larry Send a noteboard - 22/04/2010 09:14:46 PM
No, I was purely using "Oedipus Rex" as an example because in the order of Sophocles' plays, "Oedipus Rex" (translated as Oedipus the King), lead to "Oedipus at Colonus" and was ended by "Antigone" as a tragic cycle. The order is very similar to "Dune", "Dune Messiah" and "Children of Dune"'s places in the overall series. The first trilogy is overall a tragedy, so I see many parallels, especially since Oedipus is blind for the entirety of "Oedipus at Colonus" similar to Paul's blindness and wanderings after a certain point in "Dune Messiah", as well as the idea that tremendous forces have to be confronted by Oedipus' progeny in the form of his daughter, Antigone, while it falls to Leto II to go further and do the hard work necessary to ensure the Golden Path is successful. Indeed you can look at "Dune" as being about what happens when a superbeing uniting male and female aspects is created - he didn't have an incestual relationship in the physical sense, but he understood his mother as his father did, and had access to those memories. As Jessica later says about Leto II and Ghanima when they reproduce those memories, "it was an Abomination" - she felt stripped bare before them with knowledge that no child should know firsthand. It is the gift of Jessica's heritage as a Bene Gesserit and genetic bloodlines that opened up the prescient abilities in the Atreides line.
OK, that makes a bit more sense, as I was wondering if you were talking about the specific tragic points in those plays, but yes, in structure there are indeed several parallels. And yes, it is discomforting in the extreme to imagine a situation similar to what Jessica experiences with her progeny.
But, yes, Aliah has prophetic powers in "Dune" and "Dune Messiah" - they are waning in the second book, though, which is why she started taking more massive dosages of spice and how she became an Abomination. She was not a full blown Kwisatz Haderach, which makes sense since she was to be the female Atreides that would have given birth to a Atreides/Harkonnen son that would have the full powers. This is alluded to in her early birth, where she already was being talked about by the other Fremen because she knew things that had not happened, yet, and already had the maturity of an adult. You might have missed this in "Dune", but she uses her limited prescient abilities to manifest thoughts into Mohiam's mind - she uses this to communicate with Paul:
I was thinking more in terms of the third book, but yes, you are correct. I do remember a few scenes, but since for the most part her powers aren't as prescient as Paul's or Leto II's and since I was reminded more of the more minor prescients that appear in Dune Messiah, I guess I did overlook what you pointed out.
Of all the uses of time-vision, this was the strangest. "I have breasted the future to place my words where only you can hear them," Alia had said. "Even you cannot do that, my brother. I find it an interesting play. And ... oh, yes — I've killed our grandfather, the demented old Baron. He had very little pain."
Indeed.
Also, in the training sequence where Alia is fighting the sword training mechanism, she remarks that she is now the match of about seven Ginaz swordmasters. Duncan himself never gave his rank, but the implication is that she has pursued the utmost physical capabilities of her prana-bindu training to exceed what he (and Paul) were capable of. This lead her to start exploring the Bene Gesserit forbidden controls of manipulating the aging process and etc. It is this same ultimate control that she uses to wrest muscular control from the Abomination of the Barons' control, and commit suicide.
True, although I don't think I'd go so far as to presume that this exceeded what Paul was capable of achieving. Rather, I would argue that he chose to abide by limits and conventions (as seen ultimately in Dune Messiah), while Alia's failure to restrict herself helped lead to her downfall. Minor quibble, though.
Alia is an interesting character because F.H. gave hints of what she was capable of, showed the obvious evolution and did very well in following through on them throughout the trilogy without giving up all of her secrets. She comes across as a very relatable person at all steps of her sad journey.
Agreed. I didn't spend time on this element in my reviews to date, but I do agree that her character has quite a bit of depth to it. No accident that she didn't get as much "air time" as several other key characters.
I really love these characters and my affections have grown after multiple re-readings, especially having read Frank Herberts' biography and etc, and I can appreciate how he placed jewel-like "hints" as to real motivations throughout the series.
In the end, the series had a great resolution in "Chapterhouse", with each human now being fully "human".
Looking forward to refreshing my memory on that detail. Best part of writing these re-read commentaries is how many responses are generated that lead to things to consider further down the line
Illusions fall like the husk of a fruit, one after another, and the fruit is experience. - Narrator, Sylvie
Je suis méchant.
Je suis méchant.
Frank Herbert, Dune Chronicles (series reviews within)
16/04/2010 04:11:40 AM
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Re: Frank Herbert, Dune
16/04/2010 06:09:49 PM
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Re: Frank Herbert, Dune
17/04/2010 12:08:06 AM
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Re: Frank Herbert, Dune
17/04/2010 02:33:38 PM
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Not all themes are intended by the author. That doesn't mean they aren't there.
17/04/2010 06:54:14 PM
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Re: Not all themes are intended by the author. That doesn't mean they aren't there.
17/04/2010 10:44:18 PM
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I was using a fairly precise term when I said "ecological"
18/04/2010 12:13:14 AM
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Re: I was using a fairly precise term when I said "ecological"
18/04/2010 03:34:33 AM
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Please read linked interview...as I call bullshit. Also, why are your walls white?
18/04/2010 05:18:07 AM
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Re: Please read linked interview...as I call bullshit. Also, why are your walls white?
19/04/2010 06:15:26 PM
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That was most of my issue.
21/04/2010 12:12:56 AM
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Just because something plays a dominate role doesn't make it a theme
21/04/2010 02:09:42 PM
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Thank you for saying concisely the point I have been trying to make. *NM*
21/04/2010 06:34:12 PM
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A theme is merely a dominant strain in a story; there can be more than one theme present
21/04/2010 11:21:38 PM
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Re: A theme is merely a dominant strain in a story; there can be more than one theme present
22/04/2010 04:58:01 AM
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Re: A theme is merely a dominant strain in a story; there can be more than one theme present
22/04/2010 04:08:28 PM
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Texts have different interpretations and Readers emphasize different aspects
22/04/2010 09:28:05 PM
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Re: Texts have different interpretations and Readers emphasize different aspects
23/04/2010 05:22:22 PM
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Re: Just because something plays a dominate role doesn't make it a theme
29/04/2010 11:36:45 PM
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Not really sure how Larry's definition is archaic.
19/04/2010 07:52:27 PM
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Re: Not really sure how Larry's definition is archaic.
20/04/2010 07:04:40 PM
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Your patronizing manner aside, that's not "archaic" at all.
21/04/2010 01:46:50 AM
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Re: Your patronizing manner aside, that's not "archaic" at all.
21/04/2010 06:23:24 PM
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People who see this as an ecological book are missing the point of the book
16/04/2010 06:28:40 PM
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Books can have more than one theme. Great books almost always do. *NM*
16/04/2010 07:15:11 PM
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I agree with that I just never really the ecological theme to Dune
16/04/2010 10:12:26 PM
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There are several points to the book/series
17/04/2010 12:11:38 AM
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Everyone get something different from a book
19/04/2010 07:01:51 PM
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I believe those themes become more pronounced later in the series
20/04/2010 10:09:36 PM
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I remember having hated every single character of this book. Some random thoughts
17/04/2010 05:08:25 PM
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Well, I enjoyed more of the characters this time around, if that helps
18/04/2010 12:14:43 AM
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Re: Frank Herbert, Dune
17/04/2010 08:05:16 PM
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I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom
17/04/2010 10:22:27 PM
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Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom
18/04/2010 04:38:10 AM
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Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom
19/04/2010 04:04:43 AM
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Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom
22/04/2010 04:31:26 AM
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I thought all of Dune had begun as a serial in a SF magazine. *NM*
22/04/2010 01:58:22 PM
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Dune Messiah (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read)
19/04/2010 08:42:18 AM
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Re: Dune Messiah (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read)
21/04/2010 03:33:46 PM
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I didn't see that in Alia
21/04/2010 11:27:22 PM
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There were a few scenes displaying Alia's abilities/mindset. (spoilers)
22/04/2010 03:54:32 PM
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OK, that makes a bit more sense, as I wasn't for sure what you were arguing at first
22/04/2010 09:14:46 PM
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One of my favorite series!
21/04/2010 03:30:57 PM
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I didn't "miss it" as much as I chose to deemphasize it
21/04/2010 11:29:50 PM
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Re: I didn't "miss it" as much as I chose to deemphasize it
22/04/2010 04:02:26 PM
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Heretics of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read)
28/04/2010 06:02:54 AM
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Re: Heretics of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read)
29/04/2010 03:26:28 PM
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