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I didn't "miss it" as much as I chose to deemphasize it Larry Send a noteboard - 21/04/2010 11:29:50 PM
I don't have any problem with their mention of homosexuality - Baron Harkonnen is a villain who happens to have homosexual encounters. He is not meant to represent the gay community, so I think you are over-analyzing here.

Also, their culture is based off of certain features of human society on Earth, so that woman being in maternal or domestic roles is supposed to be indicative of a throwback to more "traditional" times. After all, this is a futuristic civilization that destroyed all of it's advanced robotics and artificial intelligence - a lot of the roles we see are actually supposed to be from the Orange Catholic Bible and it's supporting texts. You'll notice in future novels that after the God Emperor takes over, gender roles become more fluid and individual, with a generalized meta-evolution of the species being a realized goal of Leto II and Ghanima.

What I think you may be missing is that the book is written in such a way that it leaves a lot to the readers' imagination while a lot of action is happening on-screen. For example, in that last scene, we dip into the thoughts of everyone involved to see that Jessica's arrival was indicated in a prophecy among the Fremen - where you see clunky dialogue, I see a scene description from multiple POVs delivered in one chapter and rather fluidly describing movement and overall composition of the social scene.

Also, I think you are missing the fact that Frank Herbert wrote these characters with an understanding of Jungian psychology and archetypes - many of these characters seem quasi-mythical because they were meant to resemble myths.

You will notice that reading Jessica's critical paper on how the Bene Gesserit lost control of the Kwisatz Haderach project is a very different point of view from the tone used throughout the novel. This is because the point of view used to convey each story is largely different. I think "Chapterhouse Dune" would be more to your liking in terms of traditional POV descriptions - it is less about telling a story to an audience and more about the experience and inner motivations of a few core characters.


I just thought (and still do) that what Herbert was trying to accomplish in those scenes could have been done in a smoother fashion. I did recognize what he was trying to do in several of those scenes; I just chose not to spend much time on them, as I wasn't going to write a 2500 word essay A lot of the other points I'll be address in the next few commentaries, especially the cogent one you make about changing gender roles in the latter three novels.
Illusions fall like the husk of a fruit, one after another, and the fruit is experience. - Narrator, Sylvie

Je suis méchant.
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Frank Herbert, Dune Chronicles (series reviews within) - 16/04/2010 04:11:40 AM 1810 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune - 16/04/2010 06:09:49 PM 959 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune - 17/04/2010 12:08:06 AM 1119 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune - 17/04/2010 02:33:38 PM 1052 Views
I was using a fairly precise term when I said "ecological" - 18/04/2010 12:13:14 AM 1055 Views
Re: I was using a fairly precise term when I said "ecological" - 18/04/2010 03:34:33 AM 1085 Views
Please read linked interview...as I call bullshit. Also, why are your walls white? - 18/04/2010 05:18:07 AM 924 Views
Re: Please read linked interview...as I call bullshit. Also, why are your walls white? - 19/04/2010 06:15:26 PM 922 Views
That was most of my issue. - 21/04/2010 12:12:56 AM 809 Views
Re: That was most of my issue. - 21/04/2010 06:33:14 PM 791 Views
Re: That was most of my issue. - 29/04/2010 11:38:26 PM 761 Views
Just because something plays a dominate role doesn't make it a theme - 21/04/2010 02:09:42 PM 893 Views
A theme is merely a dominant strain in a story; there can be more than one theme present - 21/04/2010 11:21:38 PM 865 Views
Re: A theme is merely a dominant strain in a story; there can be more than one theme present - 22/04/2010 04:58:01 AM 812 Views
Good points - 22/04/2010 09:19:45 PM 843 Views
Re: Good points - 22/04/2010 10:55:21 PM 806 Views
when you call it human ecology I come much closer to agreeing - 22/04/2010 02:16:58 PM 826 Views
Not really sure how Larry's definition is archaic. - 19/04/2010 07:52:27 PM 930 Views
Re: Not really sure how Larry's definition is archaic. - 20/04/2010 07:04:40 PM 788 Views
You're not using "archaic" correctly - 20/04/2010 10:07:31 PM 804 Views
Your patronizing manner aside, that's not "archaic" at all. - 21/04/2010 01:46:50 AM 712 Views
doesn't that regulate the point down to interesting trivia? - 21/04/2010 02:36:38 PM 837 Views
Re: Your patronizing manner aside, that's not "archaic" at all. - 21/04/2010 06:23:24 PM 915 Views
Funny the things people focus on - 21/04/2010 11:24:59 PM 806 Views
Re: Funny the things people focus on - 23/04/2010 05:28:54 PM 819 Views
People who see this as an ecological book are missing the point of the book - 16/04/2010 06:28:40 PM 1286 Views
Books can have more than one theme. Great books almost always do. *NM* - 16/04/2010 07:15:11 PM 413 Views
I agree with that I just never really the ecological theme to Dune - 16/04/2010 10:12:26 PM 997 Views
Ecology goes more than one way - 17/04/2010 12:12:45 AM 945 Views
There are several points to the book/series - 17/04/2010 12:11:38 AM 1025 Views
Everyone get something different from a book - 19/04/2010 07:01:51 PM 1199 Views
I remember having hated every single character of this book. Some random thoughts - 17/04/2010 05:08:25 PM 1155 Views
I hope you got to Darwi Odrade - 21/04/2010 03:44:27 PM 830 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune - 17/04/2010 08:05:16 PM 1392 Views
I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom - 17/04/2010 10:22:27 PM 1188 Views
Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom - 18/04/2010 04:38:10 AM 1115 Views
Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom - 19/04/2010 04:04:43 AM 1071 Views
Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom - 22/04/2010 04:31:26 AM 828 Views
I thought all of Dune had begun as a serial in a SF magazine. *NM* - 22/04/2010 01:58:22 PM 358 Views
And Dune Messiah as well was serialized at first, in Galaxy *NM* - 22/04/2010 09:31:54 PM 363 Views
Dune Messiah (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 19/04/2010 08:42:18 AM 1059 Views
Re: Dune Messiah (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 21/04/2010 03:33:46 PM 805 Views
I didn't see that in Alia - 21/04/2010 11:27:22 PM 710 Views
One of my favorite series! - 21/04/2010 03:30:57 PM 731 Views
I didn't "miss it" as much as I chose to deemphasize it - 21/04/2010 11:29:50 PM 655 Views
Re: I didn't "miss it" as much as I chose to deemphasize it - 22/04/2010 04:02:26 PM 761 Views
His style doesn't appeal to me as much, unfortunately - 22/04/2010 09:17:21 PM 659 Views
You might want to track down his short stories one day... - 23/04/2010 02:06:09 PM 885 Views
Children of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 22/04/2010 06:47:04 AM 869 Views
See...I think I made a mistake in my reading of Dune - 22/04/2010 07:26:28 AM 840 Views
Depends - 22/04/2010 08:01:39 AM 741 Views
Re: Depends - 22/04/2010 11:12:15 PM 995 Views
read something else - 23/04/2010 07:49:34 PM 732 Views
LA Times article on Dune (4/18/2010) - 23/04/2010 10:59:00 AM 700 Views
God Emperor of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 25/04/2010 02:03:37 AM 953 Views
Heretics of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 28/04/2010 06:02:54 AM 707 Views
Re: Heretics of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 29/04/2010 03:26:28 PM 769 Views
I read the wiki synopses of those two books - 29/04/2010 09:44:07 PM 753 Views
Re: I read the wiki synopses of those two books - 10/05/2010 04:10:49 AM 1079 Views
Chapterhouse: Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 30/04/2010 02:31:10 PM 890 Views
Re: Chapterhouse: Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 10/05/2010 01:24:33 AM 909 Views

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